Commando Archive
Thread: MasterSynn, fellow commandos, devs and others mull over this commando suggestion
1. Absalutely not. The whole reason it does the damage it does WITHOUT the specials is because we HAVE NO SPECIALS for it. It does as much damage as someone with a pistol useing specials now. THIS is essential for balance. Also melee proffessions reduce ALL forms of damage while they have the weapon of their choice equipped. Ranged deffense and Melee Deffense effect how evasive you are to these forms of attacks (how often an attacker will miss you), and all forms of toughness (unarmed, 2hand, polearm) directly effect the amount of damage you take from any attack. Theres a reason why they are specificly tuned to what weapon the meleer has equiped.
2. I don't know about this one, commandos can easily wear full composite armor with little penalty to our primary weapons ham costs (the flamethrower) when useing its specific specials. This enables us to easily tank mobs and this I think SOE does not like. As it is, when fully buffed and in armor I am still very tough to take down from meleers. Because of the 2.5x melee damage, commandos are now forced to use weapons other then the flamethrower against creatures in melee. However, considering we have to get within melee range to shoot, I think the damage DOES have to be reduced. However I do see value in haveing this mod in place.
3. No reduction in damage is needed or wanted. Commandos with flamethrowers are doing exactly the damage that the combat developer had intended. Dispite our damage I still die from blue con mobs often unless I have outside help, either form a pet or set of docter buffs. And yes I die from blues while in full composite armor.
4. The HAR is not a standard rifle, I doubt the devs had ever intended it for use as a long range flamethower. Its design and style of use are exactly the same as the flamethrower. We have no idea what its true purpose is but STOP useing the **edit** "rifle" in the name to get a ranged weapon out of an obviously close ranged weapon! The word "rifle" applys to ANY ranged weapon. And PISTOLS have been "rifled" which means the barrel has been specially made to spin the bullet as the bullet goes down the barrel, this lets the bullet fire far more accurately and alot further. Do to the nature of acid I doubt the HAR has been "rifled" and considering lasers don't spin I doubt RIFLES have been "rifled". So.... STOP compareing OUR rifles in RL with the GAMES rifles.
5. As I said above, the damage modifier has its purpose but it should be reduced considering these weapons require you to be in melee range for their use.
6. Even if the HAR does become a long ranged weapon this would be a nerf because the har does less damage, and has no dot. This alone balances it out with the flamethrower.
7. Damage from the HAR is already lower then the flamethrower, and again, the HWs are doing exactly the damage the devs wanted.
8. The HARs damage is based on a number times the damage of the normal shot. Its not just set at "#### - ####" increaseing the HARs base damage increases its specials damage.
9. As someone else said (and you rudely flamed him) the HAR specials have a 20 second delay now. This is a bug. And what you said here is "make the HAR specials ALOT slower, even slower then what they are now" 4x slower then what it is now makes it 80 seconds. No. Even at 12 seconds, NO. Reasoning behind this is that commandos take 4x the skill points and time to make novice commando then riflemen do to make novice rifleman. Commandos deserve to have 4x the advantage in combat even against riflemen. OUR vulnerability is our range, and lack of targetable HAM bars (this as I doubt you noticed, makes a huge diffrence)
Also our DOTs don't ignore the 75% damage reduction of pvp at all. They do 1/3rd of the damage the initial hit of the special does. HOWEVER they DO ignore armor, so I might shoot someone for 300 damage, their armor reduces it by 50% makeing it 150 damage, this would mean that the fire dot should tic for 50, instead it continues to tic at 100 (1/3rd of 300, the initial hit before armor comes into effect). Also the dot takes place even if the target dodges, blocks, evades, or counter attacks. THIS makes it highly overpowered, this and the wounds you recieve while on fire, which do need reduceing.
Nightwolf,
1. The reason we currently have a 2.5x melee mod is because we can shoot the flamethrower at long range. There is no possible wayyou can ask to have the melee mod lowered if you aren't willing to give up range on the flamethrower. And I don't think the melee toughness mods count against ranged attacks. I can hit melee guys harder now than I could before the flamethrower was changed to ranged attacks. We need some TKA's to go dual a commando and state some results.
2. The reason to lower the range of the flamethrower is so we can have the melee mod removed. Again this is for balance. If your not willing to give something up nothing will change.
3. One of the biggest gripes about commandos is that people are getting one shotted. This is to combat that. Even with a slight damage reduction our specials will hit for 1000 in pvp. I've heard most commandos state that theywould rather have given up some damage instead of having this vulnerability to melee, and I agree.
4. Please don't get tecnical with definitions as we both know the developers were not refering to the type of barrel the gun has, as the only rifle in the game that would have a rifled barrel would be the tusken yet all the others are still called a RIFLE. I was trying to come up with a roll for the HAR that allows it to have a unique place. I don't want to see a gimpy clone of the flamethrower. Because even if they fix the mods it will be a lower damage flamethrower that has no DOT, and what benifit would it have over the flamethrower??
5.
6. Well if the HAR is a 64m weapon a cone attack at that range would be like beating the nerf drum in front of the PA system at a football field.
7. if the HAR is to be long range we would have to lower it down or there will be nerf crys. I was trying to head off the nerf crys. But I also said that it would require some tuning.
8. You are correct the specials are directly tied to the dmg of the weapon, and since I asked for the dmg of the weapon to change I asked for the specials to change accordingly.
9. Why should range be our vulnerability??? Are we not MasterMarksmen?? Have we not mastered all RANGED combat??I don't see why we shouldn't have a specific long range weapon. Having a second gimpy flamethrower dosen't help us. And asking to be able to win every battle against every opponent is not going to get you any support in the community, and without support little is going to get done. I was trying to get us a weapon that scaled slightly behindthe rifleman profession. This should look familiar, as Carbineers and Pistoleers can dabble in BH and get nice bonuses to their professions.
One thing we should remember is that riflemen don't have a second class to get abonus from like the other two. You may be surpised how many riflemen would jump at the chance for such a profession. Makeing the HAR more "rifle like" would give it a specific role and if done correctly could get usan ally.
- Why? Rifleman get strafe shot which are cone mind hits at 64 meters, if we make htis a rifle, why remove that ability? Think if youre proposed leave the 2.x whatever melee damage, tha tmakes it just like the rifleman, theyre going to aggro it all, then run, or die.
7:lower the damage? its already lower than the FT...and theyre slower. Youd have to speed it up a bit if you dropped the damage more. If it was a 3.5 build gun instead of a 5.x+ gun on most servers, and had a 350-600 or so that wouldnt be bad.
Balancing against rifleman: what about every other class? i dont fihgt soley rifleman, and if i did with a prorposed 4x delay, tahts 4 mind shots from the rifleman holding a ap3 t21 cannon, which means the commando automatically loses.
Edge, I think the reason to balance aginst the Rifle profession simple. Look at the Commando boards. Who's complaining...not the TKA's, not the pistoleers...the riflemen. Valentine's simply trying to bring us in line with the other professions and piss off the fewest people. /salute
As far as the DOTs go, when I can walk up to8-10 players and take them all out with single flame cone...the DOT is too high.
Personaly I like this idea. I'll give you all the arguement about the HAR because the mods are jacked up and it's gonna be hard to see just what it does till then. But i think this idea is on the right track. It shouldnt be another flame thrower. I already have one of those...thanks.
My 2 credits...
MrValentine wrote:
Nightwolf,
1. The reason we currently have a 2.5x melee mod is because we can shoot the flamethrower at long range. There is no possible wayyou can ask to have the melee mod lowered if you aren't willing to give up range on the flamethrower. And I don't think the melee toughness mods count against ranged attacks. I can hit melee guys harder now than I could before the flamethrower was changed to ranged attacks. We need some TKA's to go dual a commando and state some results.
It doesn't make any sense for riflemen or carbineers to take extra damage from melee, so why add it to commandos too? If I kick you in the balls, it will hurt just as much if you are holding a pistol as if you are holding a rifle. HOWEVER, at that range, it will be very difficult to hit with a long-barreled sniper rifle. Yet even if it weren't for that, the more professions you add bonus melee damage to, the more you make Creature Handler even more and more important. Now I have no problem with CH's, but they are already one of the most popular professions in the game, because they allow people the unique ability to tank critters bigger than durnis. We don't need even more grauls, but that is what changes like this will bring about.
You say there's "no possible way" that people can have a long range attack without melee mods, but I have never yet seen a justification why those melee mods shoudl exist at all.
2. The reason to lower the range of the flamethrower is so we can have the melee mod removed. Again this is for balance. If your not willing to give something up nothing will change.
I wouldn't mind seeing the FT range reduced, butcommandos would need a viable long range weapon to compensate. If you make all commando weapons short range, they're just brawlers with long arms and subpar damage. (TKA outdamage them easily). A GOOD idea for balance, is to fix the bugs with Commando first. They did that part of the way, but perhaps the biggest issue is that DOT's ignore armor. FIX THAT FIRST, then see how they stand up.
3. One of the biggest gripes about commandos is that people are getting one shotted. This is to combat that. Even with a slight damage reduction our specials will hit for 1000 in pvp. I've heard most commandos state that theywould rather have given up some damage instead of having this vulnerability to melee, and I agree.
You have to be stupid or careless to get oneshotted by a commando. Kite+blind = commando loses. There is still no truer quote than (paraphrased) "All it takes is intelligence to beat a commando, hence why 95% of SWG players lose to them".
4. Please don't get tecnical with definitions as we both know the developers were not refering to the type of barrel the gun has, as the only rifle in the game that would have a rifled barrel would be the tusken yet all the others are still called a RIFLE. I was trying to come up with a roll for the HAR that allows it to have a unique place. I don't want to see a gimpy clone of the flamethrower. Because even if they fix the mods it will be a lower damage flamethrower that has no DOT, and what benifit would it have over the flamethrower??
5.
6. Well if the HAR is a 64m weapon a cone attack at that range would be like beating the nerf drum in front of the PA system at a football field.
Not really. A cone attack with a 64m range is often a death wish. Ask the carbineers. It sounds cool, but unless the enemies in the cone are weak, you're going to get swarmed and slaughtered, even without melee mods.
7. if the HAR is to be long range we would have to lower it down or there will be nerf crys. I was trying to head off the nerf crys. But I also said that it would require some tuning.
In its current state I can outdamage it with a good laser carb, and that is ap2, not ap0.
8. You are correct the specials are directly tied to the dmg of the weapon, and since I asked for the dmg of the weapon to change I asked for the specials to change accordingly.
9. Why should range be our vulnerability??? Are we not MasterMarksmen?? Have we not mastered all RANGED combat??I don't see why we shouldn't have a specific long range weapon. Having a second gimpy flamethrower dosen't help us. And asking to be able to win every battle against every opponent is not going to get you any support in the community, and without support little is going to get done. I was trying to get us a weapon that scaled slightly behindthe rifleman profession. This should look familiar, as Carbineers and Pistoleers can dabble in BH and get nice bonuses to their professions.
One thing we should remember is that riflemen don't have a second class to get abonus from like the other two. You may be surpised how many riflemen would jump at the chance for such a profession. Makeing the HAR more "rifle like" would give it a specific role and if done correctly could get usan ally.
AgentClark wrote:
Edge, I think the reason to balance aginst the Rifle profession simple. Look at the Commando boards. Who's complaining...not the TKA's, not the pistoleers...the riflemen. Valentine's simply trying to bring us in line with the other professions and piss off the fewest people. /salute
And the riflemen, more than many others, are a broken class. Balancing commando against riflemen is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. You don't balance broken classes against broken classes. You fix a class until you can declare it non-broken, then balance around that.
As far as the DOTs go, when I can walk up to8-10 players and take them all out with single flame cone...the DOT is too high.
PvP tactics - "hey guys, a commando is coming... let's all bunch up and let him get close." If this actually happened, my mind would reel at the sheer incompetence of those 8-10 charred corpses. All it takes is intelligence to beat a Commando, hence why theybeat 95% of SWG players.
Personaly I like this idea. I'll give you all the arguement about the HAR because the mods are jacked up and it's gonna be hard to see just what it does till then. But i think this idea is on the right track. It shouldnt be another flame thrower. I already have one of those...thanks.
My 2 credits...
Well tick tock. I do agree that the devs need to choose a profession declare it fixed and use that as a point of reference to balance from. But that is NOT going to happen. I was not trying to balance commandos against riflemen, I was trying to balance the HAR against riflemen. Two completely different things. I was also trying to balance the Flamethrower against melee classes.
One thing this tread has made clear to me is that very few care about making anything balanced. Most want to be the best at everything with a single weaponand don't give a **edit** about balance.
HEY thats a good idea Vallejo. Having the HARwith RPG like specials would be kind of cool. Maybe have it shoot glop gernade type projectiles. very nice idea.
All they would have to do is modify the flamethrower animation to shoot a green snot ball instead of a fire ball. and change the explosion animation into the glop gernade animation.
and thanks for actually comming up with ideas and not flaming.
and that'd be pretty cool but it would need to be somehow different I would think
good mid range (agree'd upon there?)
I say midrange as that would make us versatile over a wide array of ranges
Long Range -> LP & HW
Mid Range -> New Acid Rifle
Close Range -> Flamethrower/Grenades/**Possibly a combat knife(I still want to use my unarmed )**
Also, it would need some type of special, such as possibly an area attack or an attack ground style attack
Example:
fires 5 acid globs in front of the you towards the target, which land upon the ground and act like piles of acid whereas if the creature/pc/npc attacking you stepped into it they would take damage
The way i look at ita new (rpg style) HAR could be used mainly for large targets due to the low accuracy, like at-st, vehicles, and giant mobs(rancors and stuff). But just like an rpg you should be able to aim non-directly at your target so you can do collateral damage. So, maybe a good special would be to have the ability to just shoot the weapon regardless of acquiring a target. It would just shoot straight ahead, wherever your facing and then explode at 64m awayor when it hits a collidable object. Could give it a cool name too like "run and gun" or "fire and forget"!
And whats your guys take on the long wait times between shots? I know we need it for balance but, wouldnt it b fair if we could fire once and then be able to change to another weapon without the wait? But of course having to wait if we wanted to use a commando weapon again.
I guess that makes 4 cents......ill go back to work now
1. Player Controled Turrets/Weapons
Turrets and weapons would be targetable by players and Commandos manning the gun would take 10% of damage dealt to turret. Commando would still be targetable. With a bonus AR to ranged weapons but even lower than now increase on Melee.
Different turrets would have different firing range from 115 deg to 240 deg, placable only where harvestors could be placed.
Commando's are the only ones able to place them, and only one at a time. And only the commando thatplaced it canuse it.
Long range weapons only very hard hitting.
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2. HAR
med-long range ( -15/+15/+0)
increase accuracy in the tree to rival carbine accuracy at master.
lower damage to50min-175max AP2-3
increase speed to 3sec at master craft
specials:
Single: Low damage with chance to stun.
DoT:No damage dealt on hit. Fast ticklow damage wound 15% of damage dealt.
Cone: Stream of acid damage multiple targets, with chance to blind.
AoE: Grenade type AoE low damage on hit DoT on all hit.
Single 2: Low damage with chance to dizzy.
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