Commando Archive
Thread: Jedi Starting a petition to nerf grenades.
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garvin
Wed Sep 08, 2004 1:45 pm
#14
Daker-Naritus wrote:
If Garvin's not worried about it, I'm not either... If this had any chance of happening he would be ranting in the Corr. forum rather than shooting the breeze with us.
There is always that little worry in the back of my mind that a few loud voices will cause an ugly change...we've all seen that happen to us before...so I've already brought this issue up in my daily "what's up with this/where are we on this" threads in the Correspondent Forum...
Today's Topics included:
- Do NOT NERF Grenade Combat XP because you will be seriouslyhurting Commandos
- What is the status of FS mods with Heavy Weapons, more specifically our FT?
- Why are Commandos still capp'd weaker on xp then other combat professions? Seems unfair to our Profession when it comes to the FS XP exchange...
Hopefully I'll get some type of word back on all or some of these topics soon...
garvin
Wed Sep 08, 2004 2:21 pm
#15
StarNick wrote:
Found the link to that petition...
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=jedi&message.id=541573
Flame it to hell and further back!!
Just be careful not to create a Jedi/Commando cross forum flame war...If you do post over there, just advise them that lowering the Combat XP on Grenades is not an option due to the negative impact on the Commando profession...if they insist on a solution then the Devs will need to lower the exchange rate on Combat XP to FS XP and make it the same as other XP exchanges (something I doubt many of them will push that hard for)...
Latenighter
Wed Sep 08, 2004 2:34 pm
#16
garvin wrote:
Daker-Naritus wrote:If Garvin's not worried about it, I'm not either... If this had any chance of happening he would be ranting in the Corr. forum rather than shooting the breeze with us.
There is always that little worry in the back of my mind that a few loud voices will cause an ugly change...we've all seen that happen to us before...so I've already brought this issue up in my daily "what's up with this/where are we on this" threads in the Correspondent Forum...
Today's Topics included:
- Do NOT NERF Grenade Combat XP because you will be seriously hurting Commandos
- What is the status of FS mods with Heavy Weapons, more specifically our FT?
- Why are Commandos still capp'd weaker on xp then other combat professions? Seems unfair to our Profession when it comes to the FS XP exchange...
Hopefully I'll get some type of word back on all or some of these topics soon...
Thanks Garvin. I'm dying to know these answers, and they seem like they are REALLY easy for the Dev's to answer. The FS Mod issue is a biggie.
RIEN - Master Commando
Corbantis
Warmaker01
Wed Sep 08, 2004 3:16 pm
#17
StarNick wrote:
Found the link to that petition...
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=jedi&message.id=541573
Flame it to hell and further back!!
Pfft... it further reinforces my already low opinion of Jedi. If they removed the Jedi profession tomorrow I wouldn't shed a tear As a matter of fact, it would greatly improve this game, IMO. Not like it's going to happen, but one can dream.
"If they can be fooled, they can be killed."
Warmaker01
Wed Sep 08, 2004 3:20 pm
#18
I want to add that I never had any intentions for becoming a problem to the game... being another Jedi and joining their wonderful crowd.
As a matter of fact, I think I will skip the whole Force Sensitivity thing. I just realize how much of a$$$$ stain it would be for my character to beassociated with the Force/Schwartz.
AKemper
Wed Sep 08, 2004 5:46 pm
#19
Garvin:
I am kinda drunk right now so this may be a bit more aggresive than intened, however, I keep reading constantly in these forums things like"I don't think commandos should be as good in combat as the elite profession" but we should be better generalists" TO HELL WITH THAT!!! We should be the end game for the non-jedi proffesions. Combat medic, and bounty hunter are the only 2 professions with the same number of SP to master that we spend. Combat medic has the entire medic tree he should not be as good at combat since his base mastery is "HEALING" not killing. The BH should be very close to us since he has a marksman as his base mastery but he gets the scout leg, where as we get the unarmed leg. We are PURE COMBAT. the rifleman should not be as good as us or the caribineer. or the combat medic. Quite frankly noneof the combat proffesions should be as good as the commando in combatPERIOD!! they want the combat potential of a commando they should have to surrender master DOC and be a Master commando.
Now they are crying to nerf grenade exp and you say we shouldn't be ugly to them? Hmm.... well ok what should I do use my uber combat skills and kick their arse? Maybe I should skull drag a few jedi around for being mean to us commandos? It seems to me the proffesions that get attention raise hell with them and they address it....... Jedi for example...... I am tired of begging for what we should already have and being told to be thankful that we aren't getting it any worse. I am the Elite of combat proffesions (Jedi not withstanding) I should not get waxed by a master dancer. So I will remove my signature of master commmando but I'll be damned if I am going to be nice to those that want to ruin one of the 2 things about commando that work.
Yeah, I know the combat balance is coming...... When? that is the question. publish 11 is scheduled for March and it is for GCW, so when should we expect to see this "promised combat balance"?
In closing Garvin, I try to not flame but in this case you sound like TH when he gives his "sock puppet" answer. You are a commando not a politician. Fight for right! You shouldn't attack this petition due to your corespondent status. However asking us to be nice when we have so little to start with, is like asking the the starving man to be nice to the robber trying to steal his only loaf of bread.
garvin
Wed Sep 08, 2004 6:07 pm
#20
AKemper wrote:
Garvin:
I am kinda drunk right now so this may be a bit more aggresive than intened, however, I keep reading constantly in these forums things like"I don't think commandos should be as good in combat as the elite profession" but we should be better generalists" TO HELL WITH THAT!!! We should be the end game for the non-jedi proffesions. Combat medic, and bounty hunter are the only 2 professions with the same number of SP to master that we spend. Combat medic has the entire medic tree he should not be as good at combat since his base mastery is "HEALING" not killing. The BH should be very close to us since he has a marksman as his base mastery but he gets the scout leg, where as we get the unarmed leg. We are PURE COMBAT. the rifleman should not be as good as us or the caribineer. or the combat medic. Quite frankly noneof the combat proffesions should be as good as the commando in combatPERIOD!! they want the combat potential of a commando they should have to surrender master DOC and be a Master commando.
Now they are crying to nerf grenade exp and you say we shouldn't be ugly to them? Hmm.... well ok what should I do use my uber combat skills and kick their arse? Maybe I should skull drag a few jedi around for being mean to us commandos? It seems to me the proffesions that get attention raise hell with them and they address it....... Jedi for example...... I am tired of begging for what we should already have and being told to be thankful that we aren't getting it any worse. I am the Elite of combat proffesions (Jedi not withstanding) I should not get waxed by a master dancer. So I will remove my signature of master commmando but I'll be damned if I am going to be nice to those that want to ruin one of the 2 things about commando that work.
Yeah, I know the combat balance is coming...... When? that is the question. publish 11 is scheduled for March and it is for GCW, so when should we expect to see this "promised combat balance"?
In closing Garvin, I try to not flame but in this case you sound like TH when he gives his "sock puppet" answer. You are a commando not a politician. Fight for right! You shouldn't attack this petition due to your corespondent status. However asking us to be nice when we have so little to start with, is like asking the the starving man to be nice to the robber trying to steal his only loaf of bread.
First off...I suggest not flaming them because the Petition didn't start with the intention of suggesting a NERF to Commando Grenades...it's general purpose was to Raise the XP costs for FS trees (which I think is a counter-productive solution personally)...It's only a few folks that brought Nerf'ing Commandos into the thread...
If we go flame them, they'll turn around, come here and flame us...it's happened before and those of us who have experienced it in the past have learned from our mistakes...the only thing the Devs have to do with it is I've seen Devs ban people involved in cross forum flame fests...doesn't matter who started, they'll just ban people till the fighting stops...
As for "not being better then elite professions", I'm not sure where you are pulling that from...I andmost other Commandos have always felt and fought for the idea that we should have an advantage over any profession that costs less skill points then us...The idea should be that you get what you pay for...if they want to be as good as Commandos, they need to spend the same skill points to get there...the new System coming with the Combat Revamp has this in mind...
I'm not asking everyone to be nice to "play politician"...I'm asking everyone not to flame because flaming for flame sake is stupid, juvenileand just leads to more flames...I enjoy a good rant now and then, but I try not to rant or flame those who are just ignorant regarding what they speak...The people suggesting NERF'ing Grenades aren't looking at the bigger picture...They don't see that a Grenade NERF would not solve the problem...hence, WE EDUCATE THEM...if they keep going with they "NERF Grenades" idea, we try and EDUCATE them again...Their posts regarding NERF'ing Grenades was in no way meant as an attack directly on Commandos...You really need to read all the posts to understand that...They just brought it up as a "quick fix"...but it's such a dumb idea (as many other's have suggested in that thread) that I highly doubt the Devs would take it seriously...
How many posts do you see daily from people who aren't basically "up to speed"? Should we flame them all? What does Flaming really accomplish in the end?
To be honest...I can tell you exactly what will happen the more they push the FS XP issue...The Devs will NERF the FS XP Exchange...They'll all kick themselves in their own pants for pushing the issue...
AKemper
Wed Sep 08, 2004 6:45 pm
#21
good points all... I am a bit worried since I read all of the corespondents are saying the exact same thing " you will love the combat balance". I can't make myself believe this. I know you can't please everyone, and bottom line is several proffesions are going to have to be nerfed, or (and I have never seen devs do this) the weak proffesions are going to have to get soooooo much love as to catch them up to the over powered ones. I don't like cloak and dagger stuff or I would be a smuggler instead of a commando. I prefer to charge in and die with my boots on not while feigning death.
I also know that when confronted with superior number and firepower you have 3 choices... retreat, surrender, or CHARGE!!!!! If you look at history the latter has been responsible for some of the most amazing victories ever recorded. (also some of the biggest defeats) retreat and surrender will ALWAYS be remembered as a loss however.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Garvin said:
To be honest...I can tell you exactly what will happen the more they push the FS XP issue...The Devs will NERF the FS XP Exchange...They'll all kick themselves in their own pants for pushing the issue...
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________
This one I totally disagree with. The more they push for the FS issue with reguard to grenades will result in this....
Dev1:Well they are screaming nerf grenades....
Dev2: How would that affect the game?
Dev1: Well, the only proffesion it would really affect is commandos no one else has enough skill or certs to use grenades
effectivly, although commnados suck with them too.
Dev2: Well could we calm theflames by nerfing grenades?
Dev1: The commando will raise hell but we could prob. nerf grenades and calm down alot of the bitching, after all they are all a
bunch of punks that don't apprecite the effort we are putting into this game for them.
Dev2: Well, I don't need this stress this week JTL beta is about to start, and I havefocus on it. Nerf grenades and calm them
down.
Dev1: The commandos are going to raise hell over this. What should I do? Ignore them or use the"it will be fixed with combat
balance" line?
Dev2: Just do it if you get a huge amount of negative response use combat balance line otherwise we have the Jedi and JTL to
focus on
Now tell me this isn't a typical Dev conersation?
garvin
Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:28 pm
#22
AKemper wrote:
This one I totally disagree with. The more they push for the FS issue with reguard to grenades will result in this....
Dev1:Well they are screaming nerf grenades....
Dev2: How would that affect the game?
Dev1: Well, the only proffesion it would really affect is commandos no one else has enough skill or certs to use grenades
effectivly, although commnados suck with them too.
Dev2: Well could we calm theflames by nerfing grenades?
Dev1: The commando will raise hell but we could prob. nerf grenades and calm down alot of the bitching, after all they are all a
bunch of punks that don't apprecite the effort we are putting into this game for them.
Dev2: Well, I don't need this stress this week JTL beta is about to start, and I havefocus on it. Nerf grenades and calm them
down.
Dev1: The commandos are going to raise hell over this. What should I do? Ignore them or use the"it will be fixed with combat
balance" line?
Dev2: Just do it if you get a huge amount of negative response use combat balance line otherwise we have the Jedi and JTL to
focus on
Now tell me this isn't a typical Dev conersation?
Actually I think you have the coversation totally wrong...Remember, I've met and talked with the Devs and programmers who are involved in reworking the Commando Profession...Here is how the Conversation would really go...
Dev1: Did you see some Jedi is actually pushing for a Jedi NERF?
Dev2: Seriously, they are trying to NERF themselves?
Dev1: Yep...and get this, they actually think NERF'ing grenades might solve the problem...
Dev2: Have they even used a Grenade? Do they know anything about Commandos? Genades suck!
Dev1: Apparently they are using them to rack up Combat XP faster because it has a good exchange rate for FS XP...
Dev2: And people are actually complaining about that...guess they will complain about anything...
Dev1: Yeah, some people think it's making it to easy to grind...get that...to easy...
Dev2: Ok...give them what they want...Combat XP will now exchange for the same amount normal XP exchanges for when it comes to FS XP...
Dev1: But won't that mean that normal XP will come faster then and Combat XP will be basically worthless?
Dev2: Yep...but hey, it's easier and causes less reprecussions then NERF'ing another profession and throwing off our XP balance, based on their complaints...
Dev1: I still can't believe they want to NERF themselves...silly Jedi...that's what they get for complaining...
That's how it would go...the Devs and Programmers I spoke with (in front of other Correspondents) would rather change the exchange rate that hurt Commandos any more...The rate that Grenades gain XP is on purpose...it's not an accident...change that rate and you have to change a lot of other associated variables...so it would be easier just to change the exchange rate and discourage people from going after solely Combat XP...
BTW...you couldn't be more wrong about the Balance...the way they are setting things up, they don't need to strengthen the weak professing or nerf the powerful professions...EVERYONE will be dealing with new formulas which means everyone will be different...also, as I've said before, if you are in a "weak" profession, dabbling will actually make you STRONGER...Every profession will also have something they are good at but also something they lack...in otherwords, every combat profession will be able to win at PVP and will also be beatable...
The only reason why the Correspondents are saying when the Revamp will hit the live servers is because we don't know yet...we'll know better when the Sandbox goes live (which may go live before the JTL release...waiting for confirmation of that)...
You are speaking from a viewpoint of someone who as been burned...and you have every right to feel that way...but look at ALL of my past posts...I've never been reserved about ranting against the Devs when I saw something wrong...I've always spoken my mind and always spoke the truth...So when I say good things are coming, I mean it...
TatooinainWarrior
Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:50 pm
#23
OK the way i see it.. the less weapons expwe get makes up for pure combat exp we get with grenades... so at best we are equal with the rest.. now i say at best cos we can't really kill everything with grenades. Maybe throw two while doing a base or lair but that's about it.
After reading a few posts about the combat exp and grenades... i wanted to test it (altho not as good as some ppl might have 
) seen as i may be on the gold rush err i mean jedi grind too.
) seen as i may be on the gold rush err i mean jedi grind too.And let me tell you know.. don't even start unbuffed.. my first trip out of coronet ended with me getting a free trip to the cloner (i was using imp dent)
The 2nd time i got my buffs and headed out... the problem is you only ever get off one grenade when fighing most things.. animals will agro you can come in close and with the ham cost, friendly damage and the animals attacks there is no way you can kill them with just grenades (so ppl thinking they can get 4K+ combat exp from kills can forget it) but the extra combat exp you get from the 1 or two grenades you maybe able to use is a nice bonus and i think helps to make us for the lost exp from my flamer.
Now when fighting NCP's there is a chance we may be able to do pure grenade kills... in my testing this has been rare, but has happend and i've found a way to make it more often.
If you lucky enough when you start to fight some NCPS they will all use ranged weapons on you, even go prone.. but i have noitced that this will more likey to happen if you don't have a heavy weapon equip.. for some reason (probably the fact our speacials are in melee range) most NCPs will come in for melee fighting when you have your flamer or HAR equip... not so much with LP (this is even if you are at 60m) so i've found that (tested on stormies) when i go into battle with a looted CDEF rifle 9 out of 10 stormies on avrage will use only ranged (and are nicly together mostly) so using protons on them they went down fast with pure combat exp.
Now some may say that is only helping the jedi story.. but no... you see to find NCP types that will fight you only in ranged and stay there while you spam your grenades is not easy (most don't give good exp).. i mean most ppl will still use dant for exp too doing mokk and janta missions.. but they are all melee and grenades are a no no (these guys kill buffed ppl) on top of that.. the price of grenades mean (at least on my server) that it's costing you a hell of a lot of money to grind.. to take down MOPs fast you need the best grenades (protons if you can spare the money) and they finish so quickly if we was to use them for all our kills.
Now like i said i didn't do this a pro way but if someone has the time... could they test the time it takes to take down say a 5 stormie base justing grenades and one just using flamer and maybe one for somthing like swordsmen just to compare and then work out the avarge rate that exp can be got from them over time (I mean say i went out for 3 hours to grind... 1 hour i used my flamer on missions 1 hour my grenades and 1 hour using swordsmen... which one would give the most benefit after conv to FS exp?)
OK lets look at it another way... the combat exp is 10% of weapon exp right.. and the conv rate of combat exp is 10 times that of weapon exp right.. and so for grenade only kills to be of any use you'd need to kill better than 1.00 for every 10.00 weapon kills in the same time (or if using a normal weapon and you can't kill more than 10 lairs in the time for one to be taken down using just grenades)
From my finds I'd bet the swordsmen out does the commando in the exp conv if the commando uses only grenades.
Anyway if you see something wrong plz let me know.
OLD0311
Wed Sep 08, 2004 11:28 pm
#24
Sorry Garvin I didn't mean to start a big stink I just thought people should know about what other professions where trying to do. Some on the forum are on our side saying that this is the only break commandos get. I tried it today and 1300 combat xp for a hurton howler is really nice. Stupid me I wish I would have known that sooner for grinding out tkm. 
This will all be meaningless when JTL comes out evryone will be focusing on that anyway.
Master Commando
StarNick
Thu Sep 09, 2004 12:58 am
#25
I think he meant that the petition is to nerf the fact they give combat xp, instead of another experience type. Combat xp has a good FS conversion ratio, so some people are bitching that it is too easy to get FS xp with grenades.
Garvin already said what I wanted to Rave about...but im going to do it anyways (will do it again when I find this petition as well)
Statistically Ive estimated that commandos to grind will be spending nearly 110 more hours grinding for Jedi than Non-commando ppl...all because of 2k less weapons xp...our ONLY way to make this up is with gernades, we're the ONLY ppl who can really use gernades on a large scale (non-commandos with C12 suck more than we do!) And because we get less weapons xp, we get a weapon that gives more combat xp...
So by this petition, Jedi want us to be more gimped than we already are...and my reply to that: Shove that petition up your bloomy arse!
I think this may be the first petition of many...especially once our gernades get fixed, Jedi are gonna call for more petitions against our gernades...but not by FSXP gainage, but by how they can't block them....
Message Edited by StarNick on 09-08-2004 03:59 PM
JuggernautRM
Thu Sep 09, 2004 7:59 pm
#26
"You can break us as much as you want, but we will come back 10x stronger than before.
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