Commando Archive
Thread: It's kinda ludicrous...
Tac the thing is, your talking about the way things are and tring to relate it to what the tree leads me to believe a commando should be.
The way things are now with our support weapons not being worth anything compared to our flamer, (and I call our havy weapons support cause they are like morters and things that the military in real life fire from range to give the infaltry cover while moving in) I would say we are a support profession but thats due to us being broke.
One thing thats broke, and perhaps overlooked because it is the best we got right now, Is the flamecone. I can be right against something and miss but yet still agro it. And yes we need to do damage more often to the health bar or one of em. I do my initial damage most the time to the action pool and that aint helping but I think thats our big problem. Damage for second it is a bit hard to compete with a pistol because they do body shot which is not DOT but does damage to a specific pool and yet still got at least a weaker DOT but even though its weaker it doesnt have near as long delay, but if they can have that, why cant we have a special that doesnt do DOT and rather targets a specific body.
In short, as things are now, yes you could call us a support, as I think things should be, no. When you float your cursor over the top, yes the titles are the beta titles but the descriptions are what lead many people here for what they wanted to be and since this was released in completed form, should be what they make commando just in the name of good business. You dont have someone spend endless hours on something then change what its supposed to be once they get there. Its bad business.
Cymene wrote:
"You are totally wrong about a 0/4/0/0 pistol specialist being able to outdamage a commando."
"I challenge you to kill npc's using a pet as fast as a commando can using flamecone2. I can kill all 5 pubam/kunga/nightsister/fill in nasty npc here by the time you kill one. Also, your pre-nerf FWG's will wear out someday too, then what kind of damage will you be doing?"
First, If I do 800 dps with my FWG5, and4000 per hit with my flamethrower(both numbers are midrange for normal variants of the weapons I'm referring to), then... what have we agreed on here on the forums? Minimum of a 6 second cooldown for the faster FTs? not sure, so I'll use 6 seconds. Well, the pistol does more damage, plain and simple. But, my point was the damage is arguably on par, and a little less for the NOVICE MARKSMANwhen you figure in burn damage. And yes, a master commando can stack burns, so if I said something about my 0040 being more damaging than a well equipped MC, that is wrong... the burn damage swings it well into the commando's favor over... a 20-30 second period, which I STILL think is ludicrous. And to use that massive damage, you have to be within a range where you instantly attack the mob's attention... so...
Back on subject, whether or not I can actually outdamage you godly MC's 
is really moot in terms of the discussion.... My point is simply that it shouldn't even be close, at all. And whether or not you agree, my newbie marksman was just about as good as my decently equipped, well armored 3340 commando. Not to mention more fun, but thats a whole 'nother discussion.
Also, please don't refer to the one-shot... because its great, I like it as a commando, but it really doesn't matter in terms of dps... because if you can one-shot something, its within the HAM range(3000-4500) that I could shoot it dead with a pistol before it notices me... same general effect.
And yes, my FWG5 will wear out. However, I think it is a post nerf one, really well made.... because it was selling, post-nerf, for about 10K credits, pre-sliced, whereas I have seen ones that are obviously pre-nerf(godly, and unsliced--not krayt though)selling for 55K the next day. And, if you read all my posts before yours, Cymene, shame on you, and if not, you missed the part where I said something very much to the effect of:
I really think that perhaps the FWG5 should be nerfed.
Even though its an old, trusty, reliable friend, its too good for its cost and cert. level.
As a further answer to your question, what will I be doing when my FWG5 runs out? Probably taking down marks with my lovely scatter pistol. Since it's not like I've stagnated my character at 0040 Marksman just for the purposes of my discussion here.
And, when it comes to what I'm smoking... no, you CAN'T have any! This -edit- is expensive!
Athein
P.S. Yes you can do more than 4000 with FS2, just like you can do more than 800 with BS2. These are what I consider to be average numbers, as I stated before. If the averages are horribly wrong, correct me, butI erred on the side of being too low for both of them.
Ah, you guys keep talking about long reloads and delays but I am getting closer to master and I got flame 4 befor any of the other lines as a smart practice to get XP, and up to flame 2 yes that reload sucked, but as I got better I got faster along with getting a flamethrower, while only at max of 845 damage compared to my old one that had 1200 damage, the 1200 damage one had a crappy 5.2 speed while my new one had a 4.2 and I got sliced down to I think 3.1 speed and it works much better. I still kill torturs with one shot most the time and a lot of times it takes tortur bulls down to a hair of HPs left and I find the speed much more rewarding since if I just get one shot in and the DOT does most the damage I get less XP so it is better to get that second or third shot in.
I have seen things both ways though. I've seen me shoot at something with flamesingle2 and wind up missing and seen my friend drop the creature with a friggin scout blaster befor I could get another shot off which I normally can befor my DOT kills the creature just based off the overall speed and a scout blaster requires almost nill skilll to use but I recomend having BS2. On the other hand, I've gotten on a role befor of getting good hits and just killing the things outright with one shot but for both ways it seems to be about getting the good hit in which leads me to believe they are about equal and should not be IMO. There is a factor of how well the weapon is crafted to. I droped weaponsmith befor I could make either weapon so I dont know how much easier it is to make a good FWG5 compared to an FT. That is sure to play a big part as being an ex-weaponsmith, your materials you use play a huge part of making the weapon in both initial bonuses, and how much experimentation you can do. Not only that,but the preferred atributes of the material, i.e. overall quality, conducivity, etc. While giving you the best overall across the board atributes of the weapon, still may not be best to use. You gotta fudge with each weapon and find out what atribute of the material effects what stat of the weapon in order to get the best speed or best damage possible and I wouldnt expect a weaponsmith to waste all that material on that weapon you just bought. More than likely, they got harvesters where they find a rich resource then throw those resources in a factory and pump out a quanity if em. Dont believe me? Well next time you buy weapons, look at the others of the same weapons and notice how similar they are if not same. Similar means used same material, same means manufactured.
As for us soloing. Just wait till we get this damage mod removed as it is on TC and get mitigators, then we wont suck so bad alone even in PvP if you invest in mastering a profession that gives you the other mitigator. Gods? By far no, you still got to play smart and try not to get kited, but certainly we wont be a pushover when caught alone anymore.(as long as SOE doesnt sneak something else in on us)
Ironmonkey:
Agreed, over a long time, once you factor in the burn, we do lots of damage... My point was really not too much about that, I didn't mean to imply that after stacking 4 burns the commando could be outdamaged by an FWG5 in an inexperienced user's hands. It was just to point out an imbalance that exists, imo.
Also, we're not designed for a support role, according to the devs (as far as I know, of course...) rather, they just screwed up the class enough that thats all we're good for. I love the signature, whoever has it, that says:
Commando: This is not the class you were looking for.
And, heck, we do have a niche, I'll admit that.... but its not the niche that I think a commando SHOULD have, and I've posted to that effect before...
Like you said, the role of a commando is to be argued elsewhere, its not really pertinent to this discussion, per se, because the ISSUE is that I'm not making a comparison to another hybrid or even elite class.... but rather a class that is open to anyone with 400 credits and a couple hours' work.
/shrug
Athein
Xeromancy wrote:
Ironmonkey, I don't understand your point. Without a pet, solo, any of these things would incap either of my characters, hands down.
I never said to solo them, I said to try them. I don't know how everyone is saying that commandos are outdamaged by other classes. When I fight the aforemention creatures, I do, by far, the most dmg in the group. Force sensitive mobs: medium armor, 80% resist to everything. In a group of 2 graul maulers, 3 at-st, master riflemen, pistoleers, and many others, I do more than 2/3 of the dmg to the creature thru a flame dot.
Exact same thing happens when we fight Kimogilas. Adding a single commando to a group of 8 people hunting kimo's brought the time to kill one down by more than half.
Yes, if you are talking about low-midend creatures with little resistances, commandos aren't going to do better then other professions. Commandos definetely do not do well when they are attacked, we can't take many hits, we can't solo because of the long reload times. But give us a creature handler to send in some tanks, some pistoleers to distract and knockdown the beast, then send in the commando to flame it. The flame (if the creature is hard enough) will do 50-70% of the dmg needed to kill the beast.
I think the best style for the commando (as the profession is currently designed) is to play as a "support" character. Meaning the commando is not the first to attack, but is rather in the back lines, then sweeps in setting things on fire, throwing grenades, etc. Onestrategy we had for taking out nightsisters was tohave the commando stay in the rear and send increatures and have the other professions lay down covering fire. From 64m away, the commando uses the rocket launchertwice and kills the nightsister. It was the commando that did 90% of the dmg to kill it, while the restmade it stand still so the commando could hit it.
The way commandos are designed, they will not do well in one on one pvp. Whether thats good or bad / should be changed can be argued, but commandos playa pivatol role in being able to take down large game.
With the new HAM bar combat changes you will be able to outdamage a commando, but at great cost to your HAM bar. HAM costs can't be healed anymore. Since commandos take so long between shots, they rarely suffer from high HAM costs problems.
atytula wrote:
With the new HAM bar combat changes you will be able to outdamage a commando, but at great cost to your HAM bar. HAM costs can't be healed anymore. Since commandos take so long between shots, they rarely suffer from high HAM costs problems.
Have you tryed that out on the TC? I tryed it out and I personally like it. Say youa re at 200/1000 heatlh points, you can use your special without making you closer to death. i.e: you go to 200/940 health
Another thing it does is the regen rate is much faster than it is now. I have a twilec so any Action cost heavy weapon for me is hard to recoop since I got a max of 400 stamina. Since I got that only 400 maybe thats why it seems so nice to me but also, when I tryed it on TC that didnt sem to matter when migrating atributes. Seems that this way constitution and stamina etc doesnt effect your specials but stil effects how fast you heal. You still wil be able to spam just as many BS2's as you do now if not more
Yah, i agree. I started out as a master weaponsmith, been one since week 2 of the game. I decided to get commando with an alt since I could supply myself with all those limited shot weapons at cost
. Given the current skill set of a commando, I can play it very well, and I'm a great benfit to the group. 2 things I do find to be in a bad state:
1) any weapon besides flamethrower has no purpose. Resists have no point because they don't effect the flame dot, at least from my experience. Rocket launchers, yah, sometimes I can get 2 shots off and kill the Nightsister, but on dathomir there isn't the room to get 64m away without being aggro'd by something else. Grenades... I don't like crafting them, and I haven't found any good reasons to use them.
2) I will say I am annoyed that when I pick a fight with the piket thats haressing my friend, that I go down in 3 hits without my weapon equiped. It's better when I'm buffed, but even so...
When I think of a commando, I think of these big burly guys, like the stormtrooper commandos. Muscles bulging, with the ability to stare down a rancor. They should be able to take a baseball bat to the back of the head and laugh. This is definetely NOT what the class is currenlty designed (not desired) to be. However, the way the class is made now, it is really good, and has very good uses.
But that's the real point right there, time. My personal experience is that, especially solo, Time is the enemy. The longer
a mob is alive, the longer it's damaging my ass. if i can kill it with the snap of a finger, it has less time to hurt me. Not to mention when
you end up drawing multiple angry mobs (like say, 3 or 4 Bantha matriarchs at once) i'd want to do damage more quickly so I dont get
killed.
This seems especially important now that I can rarely find any doctors to buff me late at night (my preferred play time) and unbuffed
i don't last. A full suit of 60% advanced composite armor doesnt seem to save me at all, merely slightly delaying inevitable death.
I was with a group of 4 the other day, my (then character, ive dropped most of it) being a BH/Pistoleer dabbler, a friend who's got pistoleer and stopping shot, and a carbineer friend, we got into a mob of cu pa's, probably 6 or 8, and we were having a hell of a time dealing with them. our 4th member, mr. commando, runs over, FOOF one stream with the flamer, 3 seconds DOT, ALL 6-8 of them dropped like flies.
Looks like a strong PVE class to me. We were hunting Rontos recently and he was killing them before I could even get my scatter out of its holster.
Then again, i dont play solo much so what do i know. Soloing isnt very fun in my mind.