Commando Archive
Thread: Commando Prereqs
IdrisTycho wrote:
You totally didnt answer the first question. It was not "How does commando benefit from unarmed?" But, "how does melee benefit from commando?" Currently it is clear that ranged does. Show me how melee does. Until melee really benefits in a melee-like way from taking commando, it is simply a ranged profession that has a melee requirement.
Sorry...thought I did...It's an unfair question since, any Commando who goes all Melee with his Commando skills is NOT a Melee stacker...A Commando benefits having melee skills as I illustrated above...a Melee player who dabbles Commando benefits by having Ranged specials they can use with our Commandos weapons (via the Ranged Support Tree)...that's the only reason a Melee player would dabble Commando is if they wanted high powered ranged specials and access to Grenades...I think the point you missed me saying was, our Unarmed Pre-req is FOR US, not for Melee player to dabble us (although I guess they could benefit from that if they wanted)...You originally stated that Commadnos get no benefit from our Unarmed Pre-Req...I responded directly to that...As for Melee Player getting a benefit from Commando, why should we Commandos care? It's about us in this Community, not about those who might dabble us (to be blunt).
As for how does our Melee abilities benefit Commando (the question I thought you were asking)? We benefit in tons of ways already mentioned...
And, so far I see no mods to melee from taking commando. What I am suggesting is this:
- Column 1: Grenades beneficial to both ranged and melee. Actually, currently they are beneficial to no one.
- Column 2: Ranged weapons and modifiers, beneficial to ranged people.
- Column 3: Melee weapons and modifiers, beneficial to melee people.
- Column 4: Possibly armor certifications and other defense type modifiers that would be beneficial to ranged and melee.
You could mix up the trees a bit so it wasn't so easy to get exactly what you want out of it without investing more points, but the point I am making is that a commando tree like that would have real use to both ranged and melee.
As it is now, it looks like this:
- Column 1: Grenades beneficial to both ranged and melee.
- Column 2: particle beam weapons: beneficial to ranged only.
- Column 3: Inciendary weapons: beneficial to ranged only.
- Column 4: Acid weapons: beneficial to ranged only.
You see what I am saying? There is nothing about the commando tree that would make a melee person think: Ooh I could be a better melee tank if I took a bit of commando and at the same time get a little ranged skill. And there is certainly nothing about commando that would make a ranged person think that they could grab a bit of melee skill while enhancing their ranged attacks.
Again...is this community about "let's making things better for folks to come dabble us" or is it about "lets make things best for us and open up as many doors to other possible combinations"...Your above statement about "what does a melee person think" shouldn't make a difference to us...We have benefits to them, but not likely enough to make it worth their while...the more important issue is, DO COMMANDOS BENEFIT FROM DABBLING MELEE?Our Unarmed Pre-Req helps us answer that question as well as opens up that possibility...Let's say that Post-CU, we find out that Fencer is the END ALL BE ALL profession to combine with Commando...And let's say that we get our pre-reqs changed to 2 trees of Marksman instead of 1 unarmed tree and one ranged support, right there we've just cost ourselves more points in wanting to now combine with a Melee profession...Currently if we want to dabble a different ranged profession (besides BH) we just add 15 pts to get up to Novice...If we want to dabble a different melee profession, we just add 15 points to get up to novice...Think about it this way...What does a Rifleman have to spend to get Master Rifleman/TKM...now compare that to what a Commando has to spend to get Master Commando/TKM...How about the costs for a Rifleman to combine with Smuggler? Or Combat Medic, etc...Now a Rifleman combining with another ranged profession (besides Smuggler, Commando and BH) would cost less then us (by the cost of the Brawler Novice Box), but I think we make up for that in how our Weapons work and the other perks we reportedly get...
It's not a hybrid. It currently stands a ranged enhancer tree with a melee requirement, like always. Add some real reasons for a melee person to take it and you will have a hybrid.
Let me ask this again...Why should we care if a Melee person has a reason to take Commando? It's MUCH more important that we benefit from our Melee pre-req then Melee players benefit from us having a Melee Pre-req...Commando is for those players who want to fight both Melee and Ranged...Most Melee players are Melee because they WANT to fight Melee...so Commando isn't the profession for them...
A Hybrid profession doesn't need to be beneficial to both Melee and Ranged players...A hybrid profession only need to be MADE UP of both fighting styles...the only person that the profession HAS TO benefit, in it's make up, are those who WANT to dabble it...Melee players won't likely WANT to dabble Commando unless they WANT to have Ranged abilities...Commando will provide them an easy route to that end (and again, thanks to Marksman, they'll have some specials to use plus grenades)...
So before you accuse me of not answer your question, you might want to re-evaluate your question and ask "Is that really the best thing for the Commando Community, to remove the unarmed pre-req...ALL of the Community?" Worry less about how the outside views us, and more about how Commandos will want to build their templates...
IdrisTycho wrote:
At the end of the day does it matter if I ask the question from the ranged side, the melee side, or the commando side? If we are a hybrid profession then we benefit from both, and both benefit from us.
You are talking about a HUGE difference here...We can benefit from others without them benefiting from us...To be considered a Hybrid, it doesn't have to go both ways...So yes, it does matter...The question to start this thread is "do we benefit from our unarmed pre-req?"...not..."Should we get rid of our unarmed pre-req because others don't benefit as much from us as we do from them?" It's about us...Whether we do or do not have the unarmed pre-req, won't impact the Melee profession beyond them having an easier access to kick butt ranged weapons...If you want to know their benefit, it's just that, they get easier access to ranged weapons AND specials with Commando or Smuggler, then any other profession...that's their benefit...but that's not the original question asked in this thread...the original question is "Why do we have the unarmed pre-req"...and the key answer, in my opinion,is "Because it benefits us".
You cannot call something a benefit that is a requirement. Especially when it adds nothing directly to the Commando tree itself. What benefit does unarmed IV give a commando directly on its own without consideration of other professions? None. No one who doesn't have at least some melee elite profession skill is going to use the unarmed IV requirement of commando. It is simply a convenient requirement for those who decide to pick up those skills, it certainly can't be called beneficial to the commando tree on its own.
Do we get nothing from our unarmed pre-req? If the unarmed pre-req wasn't required, would some commandos still have a reason for taking it? If we get ANYTHING from our unarmed pre-req then we are "benefiting" from having it as our pre-req...
To answer your "what benefit does unarmed IV give a commando DIRECTLY without consideration of other professions (even though I've answered this 4 or 5 times now)"...We gain:
1) Unarmed specials to use with our Massassi Knucklers
2) We gain unarmed/melee mods to use with our Massassi Knucklers (whether they have benefit or not needs to be tested for sure).
3) We gain in our ability to use a cert'd weapon that we have in Melee range specifically.
The folks who will use our Unarmed Pre-Req will mainly be Novice Commandos. Novice Commandos will have3 main tools to choose from for grinding out Commando:
1) The Launcher Pistol
2) Grenades
3) THE MASSASSI KNUCKLERS
Number 3 is what folks will be using our Unarmed pre-req with...Do I need to repeat that part since you seem to keep missing it...We own a Melee weapon that uses Melee specials. The Unarmed tree gives us Unarmed specials. Therefore, the Massassi Knucklers will give us a reason for having the Unarmed Pre-req. The pre-req is not just a doorway, but that is another benefit. To fully understand WHY Novice Commandos will want to use the Massassi Knucklers, review the changes regarding Range as well as Weapon hinderancescoming via the CU. Sometimes it will be better for them to use a Melee weapon, othertimes it will be better to use a ranged weapon, both times it will likely be good to suppliment the damge done via grenades. Again...Knucklers = Unarmed Pre-Req...
Right now ranged professions benefit dramatically from commando weaponry. All the TKA would get from the deal is some high damage weapons for which he has no high damage specials. And if he dabbles to pick up specials then he cannot heal or walk up hills.
1) You just named off a pretty good benefit for a TKA...High Damage weapons.
2) You missed the fact that TK Avoidance still works while having a Heavy Weapon Equiped.
3) A TK who dabbles Commando does so for the same reasons a Commando dabbles TK...both want the same combined abilities, otherwise they don't dabble each other.
There are times when being a TK and using TK skills will work best, but some TK's will likely want Ranged abilities for when Ranged abilities are needed...Commando WILL give them those abilities at less of a cost then Rifleman or Pistoleer or Carbineer...but if they want more Specials (but less damage), they'll go those other routes. That's the trade-off...
The damage multipliers and special attacks of the other weapon trees are MUCH better than a stinking overcharge shot. Get real. No one is EVER going to take commando and just take the bear minimum of the marksman tree. Commando is your arsenel, you still need the skills to make them effective weapons. You need elite weapon skills. A pistoleer can fanshot an acid rifle, a TKA can kipupshot, oh boy!
Never say Never...Many of us want to still be Master Commando/TKM post CU...We'll likely use our remaining points in some ranged area...we won't be going with the bare minimums, and anyone who does, will likely be doing so for some strategic reason (like they only want our grenades for the most part, or our FT).
We still have a lot of testing to do to see just how useful those Marksman specials are using our Commando weapons, especially as we go up the Commandos trees (gaining more speed, accuracy and better weapons)...Who knows, using Marksman specials with Commando weapons (which are basically "specials" super chargers) could be as good or better then a Rifleman using rifleman specials with thier rifle...So some folks may feel confident in that and go dabble elsewhere, while others may want to pack in more ranged specials...and finally, some folks my be content to just take a happy middle ground...Even Mastering Commando/TKM we still have points left over to get into a Ranged Elite profession...Many Commandos will go that route to get the "avoidance" ability of TK especially...while others are likely to dabble all Ranged skills.
So, whos more important, those who want to dabble Melee with Commando, or those who want to dabble Ranged with Commando? Right now, our pre-reqs don't favor either side...
Message Edited by garvin on 04-11-2005 03:17 PM
Reydon wrote:
"(and commando isn't supposed to be an elite prof)."
Uhh... yeah they are... Anything above Marksman/Scout/Brawler/Enteratiner/Medic/Politician is considered an elite, says prima's official strategy guide (great for finding trainers...). Commando is an Elite Hybrid, with Bounty Hunter and others like Combat Medic and Squad Leader
I guess the bigquestion is this:
AlmightyBob wrote:
Reydon wrote:
"(and commando isn't supposed to be an elite prof)."
Uhh... yeah they are... Anything above Marksman/Scout/Brawler/Enteratiner/Medic/Politician is considered an elite, says prima's official strategy guide (great for finding trainers...). Commando is an Elite Hybrid, with Bounty Hunter and others like Combat Medic and Squad Leader
Sorry Reydon, I wasn't saying that commando is a basic profession... I meant that it's a hybrid. Whether it is elite or not is debatable:our tree is a lot like the marksman tree in that we study the use of many different types of weaponry.
Yikes, too many words!
Shouldcommando be a melee/ranged hybrid, orshould it be ranged-only?
Commando, even as planned following the CU, is really neither. If it is supposed to be a true hybrid, the melee component of our tree should be vastly more than a certification and the unarmed leg. If it is not, why the devil do we need unarmed skills? Something, one way or the other, must be done to fix this problem. Don't you think?
Also, don't get lost in the idea that commando is just fine the way it is, since one can pick up teras kasi skills to round offtheprofession. Commando, as a hybrid,isn't a profession if it is so reliant onanotherskill treeto make its melee component practicable.
Don't forget that we also get Unarmed abilities via the Unarmed tree...A Novice Commando will be presented with 3 options to assist them in their Commando grind:
1) The Launcher Pistol which will untilize the Ranged Support tree and any other Ranged specials available
2) Grenades to help with the Combat XP part of the grind especially
3) The Massassi Knucklers which will untilize the Unarmed Tree and any other Brawler/Melee specails available. The Massassi Knuckler is curerent still bugged as far as I know in that it is giving Unarmed XP instead of Heavy Weapon, XP, but we've been told, this is a weapon meant for the Novice Commando.
Our Unarmed pre-req isn't meant to allow us to "round out" our profession...It's more to allow us to go in 2 possible directions much easier then most other professions (with the exception of Smuggler). We can build a Commando/Melee template just as easily as we could build a Commando/Ranged template, and both directions will leave us with points left over to gain more in one or the other.
We are a Hybrid because our parents are Brawler and Marksman....At Novice Commando we have use for all of our Pre-Reqs...by the time we hit Master Commando, it's pretty likely we'll know which direction we'll want to go in, and then our unarmed pre-req becomes more useful (if the Commando dabbles Melee)or basically completely useless (if the Commando decides to go all ranged)...but the fact that it COULD be useful, is evidence that it is needed...
The Devs have hinted that not all certs are known yet and some might need to be looted before we know what they are...Some of these could be more Commando Melee weapons (I still want a Commando Knife)...And who knows, with the unarmed pre-req, maybe we could one day gain some Hand2Hand combat specials in our trees (it's be something that has been hinted at for awhile)...
From what I can tell, the folks who want to do away with our unarmed pre-req see Commando as a Ranged profession that should only dabble other Ranged professions...And some folks are still holding on to the idea that Commando = FlameThrower...again..."Unlearn what you have Learned"...take in the idea that we are capable of "Melee and Ranged Attacks at Novice Commando" and thus, we have weapons from both areas.
The Massassi Knuckler is what Garvin said, a weak version of the vibro knucklers. So after grinding Heavy Weapon XP, a TK would not use them realistically. I can see the point here that Commando is being suggested to IMPROVE melee as well as improving ranged combat. That's not too unrealistic. We DO get some general melee speed and accuracy mods as commandos.
But the question is, is the solution I just suggested realistic? Getting some unarmed speed/Accuracy/damage/defense and a commando melee special?
garvin wrote:
...
More of this childish reply-to-every-line-I-write eh? Normally I never do that to a person because it is insulting and it makes posts incredibly long. It is like saying here, let me pick apart every sentence you write because your ideas piss me off. Plus it generally shows a lack of an ability to form an argument that stands on its own. I am not going to debate most of these points because I feel it is just turning into a rant. Call it a difference of opinion.
I will admit though that I am wrong on one thing. The grenade line does give some melee accuracy, also novice and master commando grant a little melee speed. So there are some reasons to take it from a melee perspective. Albeit they are small compared to taking another melee profession, they are larger than if you had taken something like pistoleer which offers nothing to melee speed or accuracy.
So in that light maybe the TKA Commando does have some merit in that your TKA skills would be your primary ones and the Commando weaponry would be used until you can get into close range for the beatdown. I would think that even the rocket launcher would be most melee guys best friend (assuming they could hit with it) since it essentially spams KD from as far as 64m away.
I would still be willing to bet money however, that a mostly ranged profession commando would kick a mostly melee profession commando's arse. I would also be willing to put my money where my mouth is and test this on TC once they open up the froggies. Two master commandos, one with ranged skills and one with melee, I contend the ranged one will win easily in most situations.
If a player takes nothing but master commando and its pre-reqs, these are the speed and accuracy mods he gets for ranged and melee:
General Melee Speed: +20
General Melee Accuracy: +55
General Ranged Speed: +25
General Ranged Accuracy: +95
Even in that small sample of skills ranged professions have it better! Admitedly its a small benefit but across the board it seems to me that ranged professions get to dine on the bonuses of commando, while melee simply get some added ranged weapons, something they could have gotten by picking up carbines instead, or whatever floats their boat.
I doubt that we would get additional unarmed weapon certs. There aren't that many to give to the TKs! So that suggests that some sort of commando special would make it more "worthwhile."
But if things are shaping up that the game will be more ranged-centric than melee-centric, then it DOES make sense that commando's not receive as large of a benefit in melee.
Changing pre-reqs would be problematic. The idea of our "power" level being justified by having two different profession pre-reqs would suggest something in the scout tree to pair with commandos. But is there anything there that makes sense? Trapping? Sort of like grenades. It would make pairing up with BH easier, but that's probably viewed as a negative. Might make it possible to get more ranger, which might be interesting.
Just talking alternatives here. Discuss among yourselves!
IdrisTycho wrote:
garvin wrote:
...
More of this childish reply-to-every-line-I-write eh? Normally I never do that to a person because it is insulting and it makes posts incredibly long. It is like saying here, let me pick apart every sentence you write because your ideas piss me off. Plus it generally shows a lack of an ability to form an argument that stands on its own. I am not going to debate most of these points because I feel it is just turning into a rant. Call it a difference of opinion.
That's the way I and many other folks reply...Just because you don't like it, that doesn't make it wrong and it no way justifies your insults...it's much better to respond to each part to make sure to all part are covered...you may call it "picking apart"...I call it being through and trying to be respectful of you so that I don't miss key points you make...
What is childish is being insulting to someone who (1) prides himself on his effort to make the Commando profession the best profession it can be (2) takes time to rationally respond to your posts & (3) has demonstrated time and time again his knowledge of the Commando profession since this game launched...enough so that I was the Correspondent for a long time.
It's a good thing you are discontinusing the discussion because obviously you are taking it way to seriously to the point you feel the need ot be insulting. I have yet to rant or flame you, but you on the otherhand return with insults...how mature is that...
If you have followed this community, then you know we have some of the most mature and supportive community members. We love to debate each side of an issue making sure that all points are covered, and it's sad to see someone come in and cheapen the discussions this way.
I will admit though that I am wrong on one thing. The grenade line does give some melee accuracy, also novice and master commando grant a little melee speed. So there are some reasons to take it from a melee perspective. Albeit they are small compared to taking another melee profession, they are larger than if you had taken something like pistoleer which offers nothing to melee speed or accuracy.
So in that light maybe the TKA Commando does have some merit in that your TKA skills would be your primary ones and the Commando weaponry would be used until you can get into close range for the beatdown. I would think that even the rocket launcher would be most melee guys best friend (assuming they could hit with it) since it essentially spams KD from as far as 64m away.
I would still be willing to bet money however, that a mostly ranged profession commando would kick a mostly melee profession commando's arse. I would also be willing to put my money where my mouth is and test this on TC once they open up the froggies. Two master commandos, one with ranged skills and one with melee, I contend the ranged one will win easily in most situations.
But not every Commando wants to play PvP...Many of us, me includes, prefer PvE, so a "mostly melee commando" still works for us.
If a player takes nothing but master commando and its pre-reqs, these are the speed and accuracy mods he gets for ranged and melee:
General Melee Speed: +20
General Melee Accuracy: +55
General Ranged Speed: +25
General Ranged Accuracy: +95
Even in that small sample of skills ranged professions have it better! Admitedly its a small benefit but across the board it seems to me that ranged professions get to dine on the bonuses of commando, while melee simply get some added ranged weapons, something they could have gotten by picking up carbines instead, or whatever floats their boat.
The sad thing is, before the childish insults and disrespectul comments you made in the beginning of this post, I was actually respecting you for your stance and detailed discussion...I never take anything said on these forums seriously, and was enjoying the discussion up until this last post. There is no excuse to be disrespectful like that. The mature person is a tolerant person. You should lurk in the Commando forum for awhile longer...you could learn a lot from our respectful and curtious community members.
AlmightyBob wrote:
First off, I mean you absolutely no offense, Garvin, but youwrite far too much andread much too little. I'm just being honest. I get the impression that you barelyskimmed my post, settling on a few phrases and filling in the rest on your own.
"Don't forget that we also get Unarmed abilities via the Unarmed tree..."
I haven't. My pointwas that the melee skills commandos do haveare not nearly enough to make melee combat a viable option for commandos at an advanced level, even though commando as it exists now is supposedly a hybrid of brawler and ranged. Do not cite the melee path as a means to grind commando: it makes no sense whatsoeverthat one may master the operation of heavy cannon and the like with a knife-fist.
Also, this isn't about specials. I don't think any of us have a problem with shopping for specials to use with our weapons (melee or not).
To paraphrase,the unarmed CU prerequisite doesn'tagree with the combat techniques employed by a master commando. A master commando has a fair number of advanced weapons complimented with skill modifiers specific to those weapons, but they are currently all ranged. If commando is defined to be a hybrid profession of brawlerand ranged combatviz. if the current CUprerequisites holdcommando must also have advanced-level melee weapons and skill modifiers. The other option is that commando remains an only-ranged profession, in which case theunarmed leg prerequisite should go.
Arguing over which way is better is not the purpose of this thread (ok, maybe it was to begin with but clearly thatis no longera possibility). I only want to get the devs to make some much needed and profound changes to the commando profession, be they one way or the other. If you agree with the general idea, say so!Please don't effectively spam this thread with horrendously lengthy posts.
1) I'm sorry that I am so through that I try and cover all the issue...I take the time to read you posts (and I do)...Many of my posts APPEAR long because they tend to be responses that include you initial post (which makes them longer) and they tend to employ the tabbed margin of the quote so the get stretched out.
2) I gathered that this was a thead that stated or coverted into "Commandos get nothing from our Unarmed Pre-Req"...I posted a response that disagrees. I was responded to several times that ignored the information that I provided on how Commandos WILL benefit from our pre-reqs. I was also accused of being a Dev Lacky or "just giving in"...because I this I felt I needed to expand on my reasons to demonstrate that I wasn't "just giving in". I felt the need to defend my opinion since it was being challanged.
3) Re-read the post I responded to most recently:
I was responding DIRECLTY to the bolded passage in which you stated "the melee component of our tree should be vastly more than a certification and the unarmed leg"...I was expressing that within that "unarmed leg" we receive benefits. The sentence after sounded like you were referring to a common discussion that we've had in the Commando forum regarding adding Unarmed skills INTO our Commando trees (I thought you were referring to that discussion and not to "unarmed skills" that result from that unarmed leg.
You have the right to express your opinion that "Commando, as a hybrid, isn't a profession if it is so relient on another skill tree to make its melee component practiable." But just like you have a right to express you opinion, I have a right to express that I feel Commandos ARE NOT relient in that way, and I add to it examples of what I mean by that. To express an opinion is one thing, but more importantly, I feel the need to try and back up what I say.
Personally, I'm not sure why you'd start a thread that suggests radically changing our pre-reqs and then appear to get upset over someone disagreeing with you. If I had started a thread that stated we should have more Melee Pre-reqs, I'd fully expect folks to respond that they disagree, and hopefully, provide reasons why.
Anyway...I'll stop there. I'm sorry I post a lot, but this isn't a new issue. Believe it or not, but we've been discussing our Unarmed Pre-Req since this game launched. I bet if you do a search of the Commando forum you will find over 100 different threads on "Why do we have an unarmed pre-req" and in there, you'll see the same information covered each time. Typically the outcome was "We hope the devs make it worthwhile for us via the CU"...and it's my opinion that they have. Once testing is complete, we'll know for sure, and if it's not good enough, we can either then push to change our pre-reqs OR we can push to make that pre-req even more worthwhile via pre-Commando or post.