Commando Archive

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Evelas wrote:

How can they be alpha testing this game? I thought its still in beta IV.

O well...*goes back to WoW*

I was really skeptical about WoW in the first place, but...its like...well...wow

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I'll probably get barked at for saying this (looks over shoulder for TH to smack me on the back of the head), but to be completely honest and blunt, it feels to me like since SWG launched we never left a Beta stage (we all knew that by the Devs only in the last 6 months realized that). The Devs have made tons of tweaks based on various suggestions, but even if there ever was balance in the game (or close to it), these seperate tweaks have thrown the balance way off.

Just like in a Beta, the Devs have collected all our suggestions, bug reports, etc and are making a huge patch before launch (or in this case, re-launch)...It's taken over a year to get where we are going and I feel like what's contained in the CU, in a way, completes the Beta process...That's why I often tell folks that when the CU does finally hit, a lot of changed/new elements in the game will make the game feel new again...So the Alpha Testing that we are wainting to start is in reality (in my mind) a start to testing the final big patch before the game we've been waiting for finally really launches.

Think about it...Combat will be different...Armor and Defenses will be different...At least 14 Professions will see major changes...New weapons and specials are being added...the HAM system is being over-hauled...Template design preferences will likely change for pretty much everyone...Weapon issues are being addressed...Tons of bugs are supposedly being squashed...Everything players use in combat or around combat will need to be rebalanced and inturn, all NPCs will need to be adjusted...

That's the reason why I think the CU launch will likely come about the time folks are likely to be getting bored with the more recent MMOs out there (EQ2 and WoW as example) and be looking for something else...In 4 months (hopefully) the game will basically be relaunching or as many feel, finally leaving the "Beta"...I strongly believe we'll see l lot of folks come back and I bet that SOE will market especially to them.

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garvin wrote:

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Evelas wrote:

How can they be alpha testing this game? I thought its still in beta IV.

O well...*goes back to WoW*

I was really skeptical about WoW in the first place, but...its like...well...wow

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I'll probably get barked at for saying this (looks over shoulder for TH to smack me on the back of the head), but to be completely honest and blunt, it feels to me like since SWG launched we never left a Beta stage (we all knew that by the Devs only in the last 6 months realized that). The Devs have made tons of tweaks based on various suggestions, but even if there ever was balance in the game (or close to it), these seperate tweaks have thrown the balance way off.

Just like in a Beta, the Devs have collected all our suggestions, bug reports, etc and are making a huge patch before launch (or in this case, re-launch)...It's taken over a year to get where we are going and I feel like what's contained in the CU, in a way, completes the Beta process...That's why I often tell folks that when the CU does finally hit, a lot of changed/new elements in the game will make the game feel new again...So the Alpha Testing that we are wainting to start is in reality (in my mind) a start to testing the final big patch before the game we've been waiting for finally really launches.

Think about it...Combat will be different...Armor and Defenses will be different...At least 14 Professions will see major changes...New weapons and specials are being added...the HAM system is being over-hauled...Template design preferences will likely change for pretty much everyone...Weapon issues are being addressed...Tons of bugs are supposedly being squashed...Everything players use in combat or around combat will need to be rebalanced and inturn, all NPCs will need to be adjusted...

That's the reason why I think the CU launch will likely come about the time folks are likely to be getting bored with the more recent MMOs out there (EQ2 and WoW as example) and be looking for something else...In 4 months (hopefully) the game will basically be relaunching or as many feel, finally leaving the "Beta"...I strongly believe we'll see l lot of folks come back and I bet that SOE will market especially to them.

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I certainly understand what you're getting at and do believe that they will be closer to actually getting the game out of a BETA phase at the launch of the CU but I don't know if that will entirely be true. There are 3 main items that are of contention two are broke and one doesn';t make a good fit. We get the major one in the CU (hopefully) but when the GCW gets fixed and they actually make Jedi fit the game rather than there being the 2 true factions in the game the Jedi and jedi-fodder the game will still not be complete. What we did have of a GCW didn't die because of stun batons and 90 comp armor. We raged huge battles under those cicumstances and had a lot of un doing it. yes there were gimped proffession and unused proffession but it was viable. What truly broke it was the unleashing of the Jedi zoo. To my knowledge that is not changing in the CU so it will be interesting to see where we are when all non-Jedi proffessions are on equal footing or atleast a rock, paper scissor footing and then you throw the uber Jedi back in on top of us. Can't wait for BETA i'd love to see what its going to be like.

...is it true ...on the horizon.... will Starwars Galaxiesreturn to its name sake an Empire Divided or will it remain Jedi Wars the Force Divided....

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garvin wrote:

but to be completely honest and blunt, it feels to me like since SWG launched we never left a Beta stage (we all knew that by the Devs only in the last 6 months realized that).

That's the reason why I think the CU launch will likely come about the time folks are likely to be getting bored with the more recent MMOs out there (EQ2 and WoW as example) and be looking for something else...In 4 months (hopefully) the game will basically be relaunching or as many feel, finally leaving the "Beta"...I strongly believe we'll see l lot of folks come back and I bet that SOE will market especially to them.

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Message Edited by LuciusScipio on 01-07-2005 11:24 AM

What still irks me is they claimed they had a completely different team working on JTL.


Yet they say that after JTL they would put all their energies into the revamp.

So.... the team that SUPPOSEDLY was working on the revamp for the past year was doing exactly WHAT for that year? Sitting in their thumbs and spinning? Or methinks working on JTL which is really the worst excuse for an expansion any mmpog has ever seen... if it wasnt for the no shuttle wait times and the pretty graphics, JTL would be worthless.

In my opinion the ONLY thing SOE can do to keep a large % of their costumers is to open the revamp beta to ALL subscribers. This crap of going all secretive with an alpha test where only priviledged few who, im sorry to say, are NOT representative of the entire playerbase, only results in changes being done in alpha that once it gets to beta will NOT be changed because it'd be too much work. Then you get beta test, where supposedly a larger number of players are allowed to see the so-called work done on the revamp... and again, any changes made there will not be changed once it goes live because it would be too much work.

Witness the problem the game has now. It all started because the armor hole bug was not fixed during beta on pre-launch. Then at launch the armor hole remained in game for months.. and what the devs do? Instead of fixing it they 'tweaked' another game feature to make up for the armor hole bugs: increased the power of doc buffs to the super levels it is today. Then, after many more months finally the armor hole bug was fixed. But they did not go back and 'un-tweak' the doc buffs..result? 3200 ham bar players with high kinetic armor spamming high damage specials with no ham cost (thanks to buffs) solo'ing high payout high difficulty missions, pumping billions of credits into the player economy every week. Economy superinflated, gameplay turned to solo supermen, grouping destroyed (no need to), proffession interaction eliminated (must suck to be a squad leader trying to lead a solo group eh?), etc etc.

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tacwraith wrote:
What still irks me is they claimed they had a completely different team working on JTL.

That's not what I've heard exactly...I heard that there were programmers working on the CB for awhile (mostly in the design phase, but then as JTL approached they pulled most of them into working on that to make sure it got out on time...Once JTL launched, all of the SWG staffers working on JTL returned to the Revamp leaving JTL with it's own dedicated staff to handle bugs and updates.

Yet they say that after JTL they would put all their energies into the revamp.

All of the SWG folks that were pulled into JTL are back working on the revamp...Over in the various Correspondent forums anytime someone brings up an idea for anything not CU related, the Devs basically remind us that all they are interested in focusing on now IS the Combat Upgrade...so I'd say they are dedicated...

So.... the team that SUPPOSEDLY was working on the revamp for the past year was doing exactly WHAT for that year? Sitting in their thumbs and spinning? Or methinks working on JTL which is really the worst excuse for an expansion any mmpog has ever seen... if it wasnt for the no shuttle wait times and the pretty graphics, JTL would be worthless.

I of course have not proof of what they actually did during that time, but I've heard back around Publish 7 they were ready to roll on some changes that would have effected the game, but not really created "balance"...they then, at the last minute, pulled the plug and decided to rebalance every combat profession, special, weapon, armor, etc. that exists in the game...they basically decided to "relaunch" the game practically as they saw that the 14 major Combat Professions would have still come out unbalanced if they went with their original plan...We would still have had the same "clone templates"...We would still have had uber weapons and armor out there...We wouldn't be seeing any (or few) new weapons and specials...and tons of other elements they decided to create during the extended time would not be going in...I am willing to bet money that if they had gone and launched the original CB, right now we'd still be taking about the CU because it would have failed to accomplish what NEEDS to be accomplished...

In my opinion the ONLY thing SOE can do to keep a large % of their costumers is to open the revamp beta to ALL subscribers. This crap of going all secretive with an alpha test where only priviledged few who, im sorry to say, are NOT representative of the entire playerbase, only results in changes being done in alpha that once it gets to beta will NOT be changed because it'd be too much work. Then you get beta test, where supposedly a larger number of players are allowed to see the so-called work done on the revamp... and again, any changes made there will not be changed once it goes live because it would be too much work.

That is EXACTLY what I think they might be doing with the Beta...Remember, Tyrant said that he plans on keeping the Alpha stage very short (like 2 weeks)...mainly us Alpha testers are just looking for anything game breaking for our community...and when we hit the Sandbox we'll be looking still for game breaking issues...And yes, I do feel that the Sandbox testers ARE representative of the ENTIRE player base...The 5 I choose are ALL different and represent the wide range from staunch SOE supporter to serious skeptic ready to call out SOE on any little thing...There are folks who only care about PvP or PvE and then there are folks who want the comfortable mix...There areveterans who have been playing since Beta and there are newer folks...There are at least 5 testers (plus correspondents and blue glowies) from every Community (Combat and non-Combat) and each Correspondent tried to pick those folks that best represent their community. We are just going to make sure every little pre-data bit gets in there before testing begins and before beta opens...once Beta starts, it's all of you Beta testers that will have determine the balance. If they let more people in right away we'd hardly get anything done...go re-read some of the past Dev posts on game changes that were made in public areas...can you follow ALL of the discussions clearly? Do you think the Devs are able to filter through all of the massive replies...it can be EXTREMELY hard when there are some great ideas buried in layers of posts, many of which are saying the EXACT same thing or are totally off track of the discussion...The devs went with a smaller group to start to keep conversations focused, to make sure that what they need tested first gets tested properly and in an orderly manner, and to make sure that things didn't get "over-cluttered"...

I was part of the Jedi revamp testing...I saw the mass confusion and chaos that comes from letting tons of people in right away...The Devs had to make several threats a day to try and keep people focused and even ended up turning off certain functions/player abilities to get folks to run their tests...

As for all the secrets...that's our fault...everytime in the past the Devs have posted an idea they had, even the really generic ones, folks have jumped on them...and it especially hits the fan when the Devs make a statement, then decide later their plan won't work and scrap the idea...we hear a lot of "YOU PROMISED!" and "YOU LIED TO US!"...it's the same reason that it's now SOE policy not to give out timelines anymore (even to Correspondents)...Let's say the Devs posted ALL of the CU docs today which included certain new weapons and specials various professions were getting as well as the various numbers of accuracy and defenses...then, because of testing and review, certain weapons had to be removed, or specials nerf'd, or numbers reduced...We'd see the Devs get flamed for "Lying" and "NERF'ing"...Things have already changed immensely since I first heard details at the Austin Summit...The Docs have pretty much been re-written at least 4 times that I know of, and new pages inserted...Everything that is set in stone the Devs have already revealed (go back and re-read TH's and Tyrants various posts)...everything else is still in flux and will likely be that way all the way through Beta...

Witness the problem the game has now. It all started because the armor hole bug was not fixed during beta on pre-launch. Then at launch the armor hole remained in game for months.. and what the devs do? Instead of fixing it they 'tweaked' another game feature to make up for the armor hole bugs: increased the power of doc buffs to the super levels it is today. Then, after many more months finally the armor hole bug was fixed. But they did not go back and 'un-tweak' the doc buffs..result? 3200 ham bar players with high kinetic armor spamming high damage specials with no ham cost (thanks to buffs) solo'ing high payout high difficulty missions, pumping billions of credits into the player economy every week. Economy superinflated, gameplay turned to solo supermen, grouping destroyed (no need to), proffession interaction eliminated (must suck to be a squad leader trying to lead a solo group eh?), etc etc.

It's the "tweaking" that has put us in the mess we are in today and the ENTIRE reason they HAVE TO do an Upgrade...they tired unsuccessfully in the past to "tweak" one profession at a time as issues came up...but what they actually ended up doing is totally throwing off any balance they came close to...So it makes sense to me to "tweak" EVERY combat profession at the same time and then take players from all of those professions and work together to create a balance...It's what they should have done back around Publish 7 (which wasn't in the plans back then...think back to how many professions had been "tweaked" back then...not all, just a few)...Buffs and Armor are also getting worked over...They are adding in economy adjusting features in the CU and have various other plans in the works for before the CU, during the CU and after the CU...All of this will be addressed on the Sandbox in both Alpha and Beta (mostly in Beta)...

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TKA-MC wrote:

I agree fella's and Garvin's statment also rings' true. But there is one single MAIN concern that is effecting the community quite a bit more then the "State of the Game". I've seen it posted everywhere, I have posted it everywhere, it's justeverywhere. And what it is IS, people are pissed that there is NO WORD, by no word I mean (Zero Information) has been given. The only thing we know is that there is this mystical thing known as the (Combat Upgrade) that will bring balance to the Force and our Blood Pressure. Per the latest Friday Feature when our comments/suggestions' where asked, just look through the suggestions. The amount of posts that ask for some sort of communication is staggering, if the Dev's don't get this message then......well just read in-between the lines and you'll see it. The community is holding it's breath, if it hold's it's breath to long it's gonna die.

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I agree with that 100%...thats the big issue in my book as well...While I understand not releasing all of the info, there is a lot of info I personally feel they SHOULD share. The specifics of the CU are pretty much in constant flux, but the overall grand changes are fairly set in stone, so why not reveal some of them...But apparently SOE has their reasons...

Before I went to the Summit in Austin, I was pushing for info to be released...and since I got back I'm still pushing for info to come out...JTL's marketing issues really gummed up the communication works in my personal opinion (for awhile it was SOE's set strategy to only talk about JTL...TH's hands were tied...that's why he kept saying "January")...

Well, now it's January and I'm hoping to see info rolled out to all of the folks who have desperately waited for it...I feel optimistic about this especially since SOETyrant has chimed in...He has the power to tie or untie hands, and hopefully him stating publically that SOE's focus is strictly on the CU will mean that we'll actually be TALKING about details in the public areas...OR...we'll get folks into Beta as quickly as possible and as many as possible...I just feel horrible for those who are under 18 and therefore can't agree to the NDA (which means they can't get into Beta)...I feel like they are being penalized for being underage and is a reason why I'm not totally in favor of the idea of "you'll get the docs when you get into Beta"...

Anyway...as I said, January is here so hopefully we'll see and feel movement...

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garvin wrote:

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TKA-MC wrote:

I agree fella's and Garvin's statment also rings' true. But there is one single MAIN concern that is effecting the community quite a bit more then the "State of the Game". I've seen it posted everywhere, I have posted it everywhere, it's justeverywhere. And what it is IS, people are pissed that there is NO WORD, by no word I mean (Zero Information) has been given. The only thing we know is that there is this mystical thing known as the (Combat Upgrade) that will bring balance to the Force and our Blood Pressure. Per the latest Friday Feature when our comments/suggestions' where asked, just look through the suggestions. The amount of posts that ask for some sort of communication is staggering, if the Dev's don't get this message then......well just read in-between the lines and you'll see it. The community is holding it's breath, if it hold's it's breath to long it's gonna die.

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I agree with that 100%...thats the big issue in my book as well...While I understand not releasing all of the info, there is a lot of info I personally feel they SHOULD share. The specifics of the CU are pretty much in constant flux, but the overall grand changes are fairly set in stone, so why not reveal some of them...But apparently SOE has their reasons...

Before I went to the Summit in Austin, I was pushing for info to be released...and since I got back I'm still pushing for info to come out...JTL's marketing issues really gummed up the communication works in my personal opinion (for awhile it was SOE's set strategy to only talk about JTL...TH's hands were tied...that's why he kept saying "January")...

Well, now it's January and I'm hoping to see info rolled out to all of the folks who have desperately waited for it...I feel optimistic about this especially since SOETyrant has chimed in...He has the power to tie or untie hands, and hopefully him stating publically that SOE's focus is strictly on the CU will mean that we'll actually be TALKING about details in the public areas...OR...we'll get folks into Beta as quickly as possible and as many as possible...I just feel horrible for those who are under 18 and therefore can't agree to the NDA (which means they can't get into Beta)...I feel like they are being penalized for being underage and is a reason why I'm not totally in favor of the idea of "you'll get the docs when you get into Beta"...

Anyway...as I said, January is here so hopefully we'll see and feel movement...

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