Commando Archive
Thread: The worst profession in the game... in any game
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peer
Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:04 pm
#14
garvin, you forgot an instance in which we completely own our enemies. I normally wouldn't correct anything you post, but you left out the single most common instance of our victory. When our opponent is AFK (without a weapon they're certified with equipped of course... with our accuracy, their auto-attack MIGHT take us out alone)
garvin wrote:
LOL another Whiner .. maybe your Flamethrower is broken lol man i 1 shot people in PVP all the time unless they are buffed ...... and sometimes i miss but maybe it's because they are like TKA or Pistoleer so yeah Suck it up you baby .. Comando owns in PVP no matter what people say
Hold on everyone...don't flame this person...they are correct...I too can 1 shot kill in PVP using my Flame Thrower...of course, they should expand on that...it requires certain breaks...
- They must be within 16m
- They must have no buffs (food or medical)
- They must be naked (no armor)
- They must have no Heat Resists in play
- They must have lower Melee and Ranged Defense then +50
- They must not be able to get a shot/special off on me (not much I can do out of range or on my back)
- Preferably they must be in a Beginning Profession or a Crafter with no Combat Skills
...
Message Edited by garvin on 03-18-2004 09:43 AM
Syraxen
Fri Mar 19, 2004 5:47 am
#15
Not to mension the new fire blankets that although dont work, they are being fixed on test....
Personally i think we suck in pvp but were pretty powerful in pve, i guess there has to be some tradeoff, doesnt bother me though i hate pvp 
Memnoch127
Fri Mar 19, 2004 8:54 am
#16
Hmmm yeah HATE to disagree with you guys here but Commando DOES NOT SUCK!!!!!!
As a pistoleer/smuggler i have a hard time fighting alote of things, kliniks for example, i can handle 1 barely 2 sometimes but a commdando runs around the blue Leaf temple on Yavin wasteing the Entire temple in under 10 minutes, a Feat i cannot accomplish on my best day there.
Ive seen commando's Wipe out Entire squads of storm troopers in a few shots, as Far as PvP goes, well i know in base defenses Commandos that Group up inside a base make it near impossible to get inside and live for very long,(as long as there isnt Combat Medic's there then you can have 20 jedi in there it wontmatter)
Commando is FAR from themost broken proffession, i think that right now since Carbiineer actually got some fixes is tied betweem Squadleader and Pikemen.
I would however like to see the Gernades to be more useful, but like somebody posted Nobody should be Gods here or Uber
As a pistoleer/smuggler i have a hard time fighting alote of things, kliniks for example, i can handle 1 barely 2 sometimes but a commdando runs around the blue Leaf temple on Yavin wasteing the Entire temple in under 10 minutes, a Feat i cannot accomplish on my best day there.
Ive seen commando's Wipe out Entire squads of storm troopers in a few shots, as Far as PvP goes, well i know in base defenses Commandos that Group up inside a base make it near impossible to get inside and live for very long,(as long as there isnt Combat Medic's there then you can have 20 jedi in there it wontmatter)
Commando is FAR from themost broken proffession, i think that right now since Carbiineer actually got some fixes is tied betweem Squadleader and Pikemen.
I would however like to see the Gernades to be more useful, but like somebody posted Nobody should be Gods here or Uber
garvin
Fri Mar 19, 2004 12:03 pm
#17
Hmmm yeah HATE to disagree with you guys here but Commando DOES NOT SUCK!!!!!!
In some cases Commandos don't suck...PvE we do ok with most mid level NPC's...With High Level NPC's, most cases they have high Heat Resists so we are left to our other weapons which do, yes, SUCK!!! If we face an NPC with low or no Heat Resists, then it's all good...but go around an examine the higher level NPC's...check out those heat resists...Check out, for example, the recently added Tuskin Executioner (100% heat resists)...most Nightsisters I've seen have wound 90% heat resists...and so on...
As a pistoleer/smuggler i have a hard time fighting alote of things, kliniks for example, i can handle 1 barely 2 sometimes but a commdando runs around the blue Leaf temple on Yavin wasteing the Entire temple in under 10 minutes, a Feat i cannot accomplish on my best day there.
I was a Pistoleer/Commando for a long time...And I can tell you that both professions have NPC's locations where they rock harder then the other...I use to be able to take out the Moenia Narglatch Cave 3 to 4 times faster using my FWG5 then I ever could just using my FT...Plus, when Grouped with Pistoleers/Smugglers/Swordsman/Rifleman/Etc, I always found myself outdamaged by them in the long run (if you look at Damage Per Second ratio...We do high initial bursts, but then have long delays, slow speed and poor accuracy...Remember also that a Pistoleer/Smuggler also never needs to get close to his/her target...they can kite critters from 64m...we have to get within 16m to use ANY of our specials, which means if we don't do heavy damage straight up we are dead...you can avoid similar damage by just staying out of range...it may take longer, but you, as a smuggler/pistoleer end up better off...
Ive seen commando's Wipe out Entire squads of storm troopers in a few shots, as Far as PvP goes, well i know in base defenses Commandos that Group up inside a base make it near impossible to get inside and live for very long,(as long as there isnt Combat Medic's there then you can have 20 jedi in there it wontmatter)
That was probablybefore the Heat Resists started working...Most high level Storm Troopers I've seen recently have very high Heat resists...so I doubt that any of us can take out high level Strom Troopers in a few shots...
Anyone with over +50 in Range defense severely improves their odds of the Commando missing their initial firing of a flame special...if this happens the Commando has to wait around 10 seconds before then can attack again...how much damage can a pistoleer/smuggler do within 10 second...
Also take into account Defenses...How much defenses do Pistoleers get when compared to Commandos. Don't you find it surprising that Pistoleers have more Melee Defenses then Commandos when you consider the fact that ALL of the Pistoleers specials are at 64m range and All of the Commando specails are at 16m (Melee Range)...Doesn't that seem a bit odd?
Commando is FAR from themost broken proffession, i think that right now since Carbiineer actually got some fixes is tied betweem Squadleader and Pikemen.
This I agree with you...but not because I don't think Commandos aren't broken or that any profession is "more" broken then Commandos...I agree because every profession believes it has more issues than the others...we know our profession best...we don't know the other professions as well as those who play them...So yes, we are broken...and yes, it appears to us we are the MOST broken profession...but again, it comes down to personal opinion...
But if you want to crunch facts...take into consideration:
- Our Grenades do more damage to the user then the target often leading to the Commando being incapp'd by his/her own weapon.
- Our Heavy Consumble weapons are too costly when compared to their hit/miss ratio...don't work indoors (currently being changed on TC)...and can't be fired while moving (which makes the Commando very vunerable).
- Our LP has no specials or skill mods beyond that of Marksman
- Our Newly "fixed" HAR is still weaker then the FT, has no DoT, has the same range and delay restrictions as the FT and has higher HAM costs then the FT...again...makes no sense!!! We have no everyday reason to use this weapon...only certain rare situations when we face an NPC with high heat resits, but low acid...which isn't very often.
- This leaves us with our Flame Thrower as our only useful weapon...now take into consideration it's recent NERF, poor speed, poor accuracy, range restriction of 16m on all it's specials and it's long delay timer...
If I took all of the Pistoleer specials, doubled their power, but made them all only work if the Pistoleer was within 16m, took the avg pistol speed and changed it to 4.2 or higher, reduced the accuracy and added a 10 second delay inbetween each special, do you think Pistoleers whould cheer this change or go completely nuts trying to get it fixed? What if I also took away all of the specials and only left variations of the Bleed Shot...with more power added to the bleed shot, would you be ok with a range of only 16 on it and a delay inbetween specials...or would this lead you to saying your profession is broken? How would you feel about having only 1 working weapon you could use and only one type of special that was serverly restricted and could only be used as long as you were 16m from your target...Now to even things up a bit more, drop many of those defenses as well...that way while your trying to use your 16m specials, you'll take a lot more Melee range damage...
I would however like to see the Gernades to be more useful, but like somebody posted Nobody should be Gods here or Uber
Nobody should be Gods or Uber...And no Commando is...To say someone is a God or Uber would mean they are unbeatable...talk to anyone who routinely plays PvP...ask them who loses the most often of all professions...and ignore the titles of Commando, watch who actually used the FT to fight (most people who appear to be Uber Commandos are actually Flame Tree Dabblers who have other professions they rely on more heavily...Commando is just their secondary profession used for close quarter combat only)...You can also ask those folks who often group with Commados on big hunts...How often do Commandos end up getting incapp'd...remember, unlike other ranged professions who can keep out of range of their targets, we have to run towards our targets to use our specials, which results in us taking more damage at a faster rate...And we have less Melee Defenses...
We are not Uber...We are not Gods...we are broken...we know our profession and we know what's wrong with it...Remember, don't believe everything you see or hear...We have issues that need to be resolved...the only problem is, when ever we bring up those issues we are told we are "Ranting" or "Whining"...we also have to endure other players from other profession constantly coming in here acting like they know our profession better then we do...
Message Edited by garvin on 03-19-2004 11:15 AM
bruzinfusion
Fri Mar 19, 2004 2:27 pm
#18
Man Garvin great post....hehe i hate reading those kinda posts, they are a reality check. 
I have certainly enjoyed master commando for the short time ive had it. Though i dont not see it as a permanent stop profession,I mastered it cause all the puzzle pieces fit in the skill tree at the right time.
Anyhow, i dont see us as the worst profession but far from the best.... Just wanted to tip my hat to Garvin for taking the time to post a competantshort "state of the profession" message that i found very useful.
/salute
AlufNull
Fri Mar 19, 2004 4:08 pm
#19
I have been gone for months and nothing has changed (except some of the names).
1. Master (insert profesion here) does not equal PvP God. Get over it, it is never going to happen. There is a reason you have 250 skill pts. Use them. Yes, I know all about CM's. They will get their "balance" too.
2. Stop thinking with your flame thrower! None of my PvP victories came with the flame thrower. Well, one did, but that was just to prove a point. Most of my wins went somthing like:
Draw LP (best ranged mods in the game) land Low Blow and Panic Shot. Hit macro to Aim and fire Rocket Launcher.
Now, to make that work I am using Commando (RL and LP), Pistoleer (pistol targeting while moving) and smuggler (specials). I have also been known to use marksmen skills like suppression fire (to force a state change and keep melee types at bay.)
To paraphrase, being a Master in a profession does not entitle you to PvP stardom. Thinking you should get there with just your Flame Thrower is laughable.
1. Master (insert profesion here) does not equal PvP God. Get over it, it is never going to happen. There is a reason you have 250 skill pts. Use them. Yes, I know all about CM's. They will get their "balance" too.
2. Stop thinking with your flame thrower! None of my PvP victories came with the flame thrower. Well, one did, but that was just to prove a point. Most of my wins went somthing like:
Draw LP (best ranged mods in the game) land Low Blow and Panic Shot. Hit macro to Aim and fire Rocket Launcher.
Now, to make that work I am using Commando (RL and LP), Pistoleer (pistol targeting while moving) and smuggler (specials). I have also been known to use marksmen skills like suppression fire (to force a state change and keep melee types at bay.)
To paraphrase, being a Master in a profession does not entitle you to PvP stardom. Thinking you should get there with just your Flame Thrower is laughable.
La-grange
Fri Mar 19, 2004 4:45 pm
#20
Arcalinte wrote:
LOL another Whiner .. maybe your Flamethrower is broken lol man i 1 shot people in PVP all the time unless they are buffed ...... and sometimes i miss but maybe it's because they are like TKA or Pistoleer so yeah Suck it up you baby .. Comando owns in PVP no matter what people sayincluding you
The only time I one shot people in pvp is when I tef gank unarmored and unbuffed players. But even that isn't a guarantee. I tried taking out a rifleman/tk. Didn't go too well. Missed every time except the one time he counterattacked. And the dot was more than healable at novice medic skills.
Why the flamethrower against one such as he? I was on Tatooine and unbuffed myself. The flamethrower has high default damage that allows me to kite at range while not buring ham using specials. That is the only strength that this profession has at the moment. That and a little burn on Tat can only help. Just because we have such wonderfull toys doesn't mean that we can leave the brain at home folks.
garvin
Fri Mar 19, 2004 5:11 pm
#21
I have been gone for months and nothing has changed (except some of the names).
I think you might have been gone to long if this is what you think...
1. Master (insert profesion here) does not equal PvP God. Get over it, it is never going to happen. There is a reason you have 250 skill pts. Use them. Yes, I know all about CM's. They will get their "balance" too.
Why does anyone in any profession go for the Master Level? What is the benefit? Do they do it because they like the title, or do they do it because it give them 1) And advantage over those who partake the same profession but stay at lower levels & 2) To gain the extra benefits of the higher level...
Have you noticed that with most professions, especially combat professions, the higher you go, the more accurarate and whole your character becomes with your professions main tool? Look at Pistoleer...Look at Rifleman...check out their accuracies, specials, speed, defenses, etc. as they go higher...There is definitely a reason to hit Master...
That's not true with Master Commando...It really isn't noticably different to hit Master Commando as it is just to hit Flame4...
From the rest of your post you are proving what I've been saying for awhile...the way Commando currently exists it should be thought of as a "Secondary Profession"...a profession that is set up to enhance other Primary Professions...This is the main ISSUE...we should be able to consider ourselves a Primary profession and look at using our remaining skill points to polish...This is not saying we want to be Uber, or PvP Gods...this is saying we want to be balanced...
2. Stop thinking with your flame thrower! None of my PvP victories came with the flame thrower. Well, one did, but that was just to prove a point. Most of my wins went somthing like:
Draw LP (best ranged mods in the game) land Low Blow and Panic Shot. Hit macro to Aim and fire Rocket Launcher
Draw LP (best ranged mods in the game) land Low Blow and Panic Shot. Hit macro to Aim and fire Rocket Launcher
What would happen if I took Pistoleer, striped out all of their accuracy mods, speed mods and specials and told them that if they wanted to use their pistol they had to either rely on what they get from Marksman or go grab another profession to "enhance" themselves...do you think they'd be ok with this? That's the story with the LP...we have no mods or specials...We are dependent on other professions to enhance our use of this weapon...Even Smugglers, BH's and other's all have specials of their own for the weapons they are granted...
And the Rocket Launcher doesnt (currently) work indoors...Have you ever tried firing the RL while running or being chased?
Now, to make that work I am using Commando (RL and LP), Pistoleer (pistol targeting while moving) and smuggler (specials). I have also been known to use marksmen skills like suppression fire (to force a state change and keep melee types at bay.)
Basically you are illustrating that to be a Commando you have to follow a cookie cutter pattern to use our weapons...You should be a Pistoleer and/or a Smuggler as well if you want to use our own Pistol...That's ridiculous...We should have our own mods and specials and have the option of further enhancing our skills with the LP by dabbling in those other professions...we shouldn't be dependent on dabbling if we want to use the LP.
To paraphrase, being a Master in a profession does not entitle you to PvP stardom. Thinking you should get there with just your Flame Thrower is laughable.
No profession is entitled to PvP stardom...but come on...Speak with the average PvP today...ask them when fighting one on one how often a Commando beats them or how often they beat a Commando...It should, if the game was balanced, be close to 50%...is it? No...The only time a Commando really wins a PvP fight is when they are using their dabbled (or real Primary Profession) skills...And that's not balanced...that's the point of our issues...balance...and with each patch/nerf the dev's are throwing that balance even further off instead of bringing it closer in line...
AlufNull
Fri Mar 19, 2004 7:05 pm
#22
"Why does anyone in any profession go for the Master Level? What is the benefit? Do they do it because they like the title, or do they do it because it give them 1) And advantage over those who partake the same profession but stay at lower levels & 2) To gain the extra benefits of the higher level..."
Pts. 1+2 are saying the same thing, so I will address them together. Yes, people attain master level so they can be better then people that only take on certin skills in the profession. However, there is some confusion about how this should apply. Becoming a "Master Commando" means you are the best "COMMANDO", not that you are a better, or even balanced PvPer.No single profession, standing on its own, can lay claim that they should be the best PvPer. That is what theinitial post in this thread implies and thatis why I posted whatI did. If there was a profesion called "Master Player Killer", then sure, you would have some ground to stand on as far as PvP battles are concerned.
"Have you noticed that with most professions, especially combat professions, the higher you go, the more accurarate and whole your character becomes with your professions main tool? Look at Pistoleer...Look at Rifleman...check out their accuracies, specials, speed, defenses, etc. as they go higher...There is definitely a reason to hit Master...
That's not true with Master Commando...It really isn't noticably different to hit Master Commando as it is just to hit Flame4..."
Commando was not designed with one weapon in mind. They were designed with four, FT/HAR, Grenades, Heavy Weapons, LP. This is a much more ambitous design then Rifleman or Pistoleer and it turns out, harder to balance. The real issue for commandos isn't "Why am I not uber with my FT?" It's "Why arn't my other weapons useful?"
As you go up each line of commando you do get speed and accuracy bonuses as well as specials every step of the way.
The exception is, of course, the LP...
"What would happen if I took Pistoleer, striped out all of their accuracy mods, speed mods and specials and told them that if they wanted to use their pistol they had to either rely on what they get from Marksman or go grab another profession to "enhance" themselves...do you think they'd be ok with this? That's the story with the LP...we have no mods or specials...We are dependent on other professions to enhance our use of this weapon...Even Smugglers, BH's and other's all have specials of their own for the weapons they are granted..."
Well, that would suck. But, it would suck, because that is the "Pistoleer's" only weapon. The LP was never meant to be a stand alone Commando weapon. To illistrate this point, you only need to remember that the LP did not even start out giving heavy weapons experience. It gave pistol exp. The LP has no specials becuase it does not need them. They same way that Smugglers have pistol specials, but no weapon. Both professions have plenty of left over pts to get those mods from Pistoleer if that is how they choose to spend them. As for BH's, they deserve to be an almost complete class without much need for other professions. BH's need to spend 217 skill pts to master. Commando's need to spend 169.
"...Have you ever tried firing the RL while running or being chased?"
All the time. But first, I use low blow or suppression fire to make them stop moving. 
"Basically you are illustrating that to be a Commando you have to follow a cookie cutter pattern to use our weapons...You should be a Pistoleer and/or a Smuggler as well if you want to use our own Pistol...That's ridiculous...We should have our own mods and specials and have the option of further enhancing our skills with the LP by dabbling in those other professions...we shouldn't be dependent on dabbling if we want to use the LP."
This is not about being a Commando. This thread, as I mentioned above, was started because somone was upset that they don't "OWN" in PvP with their FT. My entire post was made to illistrate that mastering a profession is not the road to travel for PvP success. And yes, if you want to be good with your LP then you should get skills from other professions. That is what your extra 81 skill pts are for.
"Speak with the average PvP today...ask them when fighting one on one how often a Commando beats them or how often they beat a Commando...It should, if the game was balanced, be close to 50%...is it? No...The only time a Commando really wins a PvP fight is when they are using their dabbled (or real Primary Profession) skills...And that's not balanced...that's the point of our issues...balance"
No, they should not be balanced. Each combat profession, standing alone, cannot be balanced against all the others. Why? Becuase they don't cost the same in terms of skill pts. If all combat professions cost the same, say the 92pts it costs to masterPistoleer/Riffleman/Carb.then BH's would wipe the floor with everyone beacause of the huge advantage they have in skills. Along the same lines, you cannot compare apples to apples this way. No one in their right mind runs around with just their rifle skills or just (god forbid) theirSquad Leader skills.
Still, since you brought it up, did you test your theory? Have you gone out and droped (not just, did not use, lots of modifiers floating around after all) all of your other skills and only retained your Master Commando stats. Then got a friend to drop everything but Master Pistoleer/Rifle/Carbine/BH/Smuggler/Fencer etc... and had round after round of combat to see if it holds true?
There is a reason why people don't do this. They don't have to. That is not the way the game was designed. You were not meant to get to Master Command then stop with the idea that you are now prepared for every contingency in the game. You are not supposed to be a complete character just because you reached master. If you dont believe me, ask the Devs. They wrote it down in the manual on pg. 76.
--- However, you don't need to adhere strictly to the professions or learn each discipline in your chosen professions. In fact, the most successful players will likely create unique characters by learning a number of disciplines from several different professions.---
certifiedandrew
Sat Mar 20, 2004 12:00 am
#23
I'm a master Pistoleer, and I dueled a Commando friend today, who is somewhere decent in the commando trees. Sure, she wasn't as accurate as I was, but her hits landed much more damage than mine.
In the end, it was a very close fight, and her fire contributed heavilyto my incap, though she only had 400/2900 health left, and 140/800 mind left. Not sure about the action. The point is she won, and she's not even a master commando.
ShakariPsy
Sat Mar 20, 2004 1:10 am
#24
Memnoch127 wrote:
Ive seen commando's Wipe out Entire squads of storm troopers in a few shots,
Um one comment that makes this possible - No armour
Add armour and any heat resist and the FT sucks big time 
La-grange
Sat Mar 20, 2004 3:13 am
#25
certifiedandrew wrote:I'm a master Pistoleer, and I dueled a Commando friend today, who is somewhere decent in the commando trees. Sure, she wasn't as accurate as I was, but her hits landed much more damage than mine.
In the end, it was a very close fight, and her fire contributed heavily to my incap, though she only had 400/2900 health left, and 140/800 mind left. Not sure about the action. The point is she won, and she's not even a master commando.
She's good.
The last person I dueled was a master BH. And after a five min fight in the akuaan caves I lost. Was one hell of a fight. But I could not have made it as far as I did on commnado skills alone. We were both in comp and both were buffed. The FT was doing an average of 80 points of damage for the default attack. The LP was doing slightly better with stopping shot. But I think I did the most damage with my five second spurt of TK. The rest of the time I was trying to use the terrain to the best of my abilities to keep from incapping for eyeshot. Which I ultimately incapped off of anyways.
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