Commando Archive
Thread: Commando Skill Tree keeping more in line w/RL,& explaining UA prereq.
I read Ivoni's comments on his letter to Q about being your guys' correspondent. I had a response, but as I was wirting it, I realized that it deserved to head it's own thread. So I've pasted what I was going to put along with my new Commando tree. I'd like your thoughts.
non-commando weighing in...
Things I think are needed in the Commando Profession based on what I have read here in your forum.
1 - Change qualifier from UA4 to Explore4. Everyone seems to agree that this is part and parsel to what you are doing. Everyone who is currently a Commando would automatically have this changed in their character, if it is not already acquired (box for box). Alternately, make a skill line based on Unarmed combat. The game design seems to evidence that the flamethrower tree is this line (regarding the NPC reaction to using it, which should be just the opposite of what they are doing), but it should not be. I have explored a combination of these issues below (whereas both UA4 and Explore4 are prereqs). **Note- I do think it too late in the game to try to chg prereqs on a prof, but possible options for doing so anyway are listed in a subsequent post.
2 - From what the skill trees indicate, Commandos are Heavy Weapons users, not what we might, in real life, see as a commando (stealth, intrusion, wide range of counter-intelligence skills). I'm assuming it would be easier to make the Commando, as a profession, how they seem to be intending it (a Heavy Weapons Specialist). (Thus further reasoning for no UA cbt requirement.) I have combined these concepts below.
3 - Certs need to be changed to make prof more effective. There should be an Acid Rifle and a Heavy Acid Rifle, no Acid Rifle Beam (IMO that is stupid - how can acid be a beam. See the revised skill tree below for more on this.
4 – **Altered in layout below per subsequent posts to make Commando XP, HW XP, and Artillery XP.*** XP should also be more delineated, like the BH. Everything should not be Hvy Wpns and Cbt XP. Acid Wpns should give Acid Wpn XP, Launchers & Beam Wpns give Artillery XP, and Flamers get flamer xp, more in line with the BH. I think the whole line for Field Tactics should be replaced with UA combat and stealth (to keep the UA skill line and make it more RL commando like). This should use UA or more general combat or commando XP (commando XP would be gained in lieu of ranged combat support XP, except only when using commando weapons and/or tactics/abilities). I also think they should move the Vibro Knucklers cert to Commando Novice or the new UA/intrusion tree box1. (TKA’s should have their special moves HAM cost nerf back the way it was, and lose the Knucklers IMO, but there’s no reason why they can’t have this cert too.) Grenades could be placed in various boxes 1-4 of each type of tree (ie cryoban grenade in Intrusion1, Glop in flame2, Imp Detonator in Acid3, and Therm Det. in Artillery4).
So basically, the whole skill tree on this prof needs a makeover, for all the reasons suggested by Iv, and those above. The following is a suggestion that accomplishes many goals:
- It brings the profession (only) more in line with a RL commando, while not changing too much
- It makes it more in-line with other Elite Hybrid professions (read: BH)
- It makes sense of the UA prereq
- It more clearly defines the prof as a whole.
- It makes the Commando a TRUE Hybrid of other Professions
- It becomes more powerful, but balanced by XP, and the increase Skill Point Cost of having more prereq.’s
Here's how I think a good way of doing this might be:
Novice Commando (prereq UA4, Explore4, Master Marksman) (45K Combat XP)
Certs:
Launcher Pistol (Artillery XP)
Frag. grenade (commando XP)
Flame-thrower (HW XP)
Acid Rifle (HWXP)
Vibro Knucklers (unarmed XP)
Skill Mods: (more like Novice Marksman)
+10 Accuracy (Flame, Launcher/Artillery, Acid, Thrown Weapon)
+5 Speed (Flame, Launcher/Artillery, Acid, Unarmed)
+5 Accuracy, Unarmed
+10 Unarmed Damage
+5 Unarmed Toughness
+5 Combat Equilibrium
Schematics: none
Intrusion Tree (uses new Commando XP)
(Keep in mind that the Commando XP is gained like Combat XP except only when using Commando skills or weapons. Since it is harder to get [smaller portions] and takes longer, some of these skill mods are quite powerful.)
1. (2K XP) Intrusion Defense
Cert: Cryoban Grenade
Skill Mods:
+ 2 Melee Defense
+ 2 Ranged Defense
+ 10 Stealth
+ 5 Terrain Negotiation
Abilities: Stealth (works like mask scent but against NPC’s instead of creatures, uses Stealth skill)
2. (7K) Intrusion Tactics
Skill Mods:
+10 Speed (thrown weapons, unarmed)
+5 Unarmed Toughness
+15 Stealth
+ 5 Def v. knockdown
+5 Def v. Posture change
+ 10 Combat Equilibrium
3. (15K) Intrusion Expertise
Skill Mods:
+10 Accuracy (thrown weapons, unarmed)
+10 Unarmed Damage
+5 Defense (ranged, melee)
+5 Unarmed Toughness
+10 Def v. Stun, Dizzy, Knockdown
+10 Combat Equilibrium
+15 Stealth
+10 Terrain Negotiation
4. (27K) Intrusion Specialist
Skill Mods:
+10 Speed (thrown weapons, unarmed)
+20 Stealth
+5 Terrain Negotiation
Ability:Gain Access (gives the Commando the ability to ‘slice’ locked doors to buildings. This can be used to gain access for the commando {and the players he is grouped with} to all types of buildings, bypassing the ‘red screen’ on player buildings. There is a base chance to succeed or fail that is modified negatively for the size of the structure, or any Architect add-ons the structure might have. This does not grant the Commando admin access or the ability to pick up items from the structure.)This ability is mostly irrelevant now, with the advent of structures blocking access to all combatants.
Artillery Tree (uses Artillery XP)
1. (150K) Artillery Support I
Certs: Repeating Blaster (Artillery XP, Launcher mods)
Skill Mods:
+20 Launcher Speed
+20 Launcher Accuracy
2. (250K)
Certs: Particle Beam Cannon
Skill Mods:
+20 Speed (Launcher, Particle Beam)
+20 Accuracy (Launcher, Particle Beam)
+5 Defense (Ranged, Melee)
Ability:
Shrapnel Blast 1-
Using a Repeater or LP weapon, the Commando increases his dmg (x1.5)to a cone of targets similar to the Rifleman Sprayshot ability. This is a multi-target spray with 5m blast AoE per target, with ltd. range of 45m (30m cone at end).
3. (350K)
Certs: Lightning Beam Cannon
Skill Mods:
+20 Speed (Launcher, Particle Beam)
+20 Accuracy (Launcher, Particle Beam)
+10 Lightning Beam Speed
+10 Lightning Beam Accuracy
4. (450K)
Certs:
E-WEB Repeater (uses Launcher Mods)
Thermal Detonator
Skill Mods:
+20 Speed (Launcher, Particle Beam)
+20 Accuracy (Launcher, Particle Beam)
+30 Lightning Beam Speed
+30 Lightning Beam Accuracy
Ability:
Shrapnel Blast2-
Using a Repeater or LP weapon, the Commando increases his dmg (x3) to a cone of targets similar to the Rifleman Sprayshot ability. This is a multi-target spray with 5m blast AoE per target, non-ltd. range with a 30m wide cone at its end.
Flamethrower Tree (uses Hvy Weaps XP)
Only Change:
Add Cert for Glop Grenade in Flamethrower2
Acid Weapons Tree (uses Hvy Weapons XP)
1. (150K)
Skill Mods:
+15 Acid Rifle Accuracy
+15 Acid Rifle Speed
Abilities:
Acid Single1
2. (250K)
Certs: Hvy. Acid Rifle
Skill Mods:
+10 Accuracy (Acid Rifle, Hvy Acid Rifle)
+10 Rifle Speed (Acid Rifle, Hvy Acid Rifle)
Abilities:
Acid Cone1
3. (350K)
Certs: Imperial Detonator
Skill Mods:
+25 Acid Rifle Accuracy
+15 Acid Rifle Speed
+20 Hvy Acid Rifle Accuracy
+20 Hvy Acid Rifle Speed
4. (450K)
Skill Mods:
+15 Acid Rifle Accuracy
+10 Acid Rifle Speed
+20 Hvy Acid Accuracy
+20 Hvy Acid Speed
Abilities:
Acid Single2
Master Commando (620 Apprenticeship XP)
Certs:
Rocket Launcher (Improved, more potent version)
Proton Grenade
Skill Mods:
+10 Accuracy (thrown weapons, launcher, unarmed)
+5 Defense (melee, ranged)
+20 Stealth
Abilities:
Acid Cone2
Flame Cone2
Launcher Knockdown-
(30sec delay on use, when using Launcher weapons the Commando aims towards the opponents feet causing the explosion from the rocket to knock opponent down and move him 5-15m in a random direction. When using this ability, the Rockets loose their AP properties, since the rocket is more likely to hit the ground rather than the target; damage is also greatly reduced.)
Additionally, Ranges on the RL,Beam Weapons, and the Heavy Acid Rifle should be modified. All but the Launcher Pistol, Repeaters, Acid Rifle (not HAR) and FTshould be non-usable at 15-20m or less (gets the minus sign and a sys msg that you are out of range), optimal range at about 45-50m for Beam, 40m for Acid Rifle, 50m for Heavy Acid, and minimum 55m (maybe 64m) for Rocket Launcher. Artillery / Heavy Weapons ARE NOT close-combat weapons! If the Launcher Knockdown is used at less than 5m, it should affect the Commando also. Max Range for a Flamethrower should be about 45m (maybe less), and optimal should be about 5-10m, though it should not look to NPC’s as a melee weapon. In fact, they should run away from a Commando using a Flamer, to get out of it’s max range. (already corrected)
And I don’t know if they are, but All limited use weapons should be rechargeable. Give the Weaponsmith rotating and new Rockets for their schematics and Charge cells for the Hvy Partical Cannon and Beam Cannon.a Fuel Pack for a Flamethrower, & an Acid Canister for the Acid Rifles (Heavy can take 2 of these). Also, Flamers should be normally AOE. I don’t have any real knowledge of the weapons you guys use since I can’t really find them to look at, and I’m not a commando (yet?) to test them, so I’m a bit guessing on some of this last part. The only thing I can say for sure is that the weapons are in need of an extensive fix.
Of note from a post on the top of page 2:
One thing to add...
Since almost all commando weapons are DOT and way long time between shots, give commando weapons XP for DOT damage for that weapon type, and commando XP (based on the above tree).
If that is too much due to the amount of DOT that can be done (I have no specifics on this), then raise the XP levels per box accordingly to balance.
This can easily be tested out mathmatically w/o actually playing. They know what the resoures can give the weapons made from them for stats. They can figure on an average weapon and a maxed out weapon, both sliced and unsliced (avg and max) and powered-up and not. Then determine what kind of DOT it can do and how much XP the Commando would get from that in comparison to the BH for pistol, carbine, or rifle in the same time frame based on spd (# of shots) and dmg. Match it up accordingly for the XP values and there you go!
Alternately, maybe the DOT XP should just be half of what the normal XP value of that amount of dmg is, but DOT XP needs to be given, or it will take someone more than 5x as long to reach Master of this profession than of BH, which should be comparable.
Anyway, I’d love to hear all your thoughts on this. I’m sorry if I’m out of line by posting this since I am a non-commando, but I have done some perusing of your boards to try to come up with some of these ideas.
Message Edited by TonPhannan on 03-30-2004 03:20 AM
Oh, yeah. On the increase in the prereq...
I would guess the best way to do this would be that all Commandos that did not have this prereq would not be able to train in any Commando skill until the prereq was met (explore4). I don't know if that prereq can even be added at this point, but that seems the most likely option if it can be...though most of you seem to have it anyway (not sure why though).
AP on weapons IMO:
Launcher Pistol AP0
Flamethrower AP0
Repeating Blaster AP1
[Hvy] Particle Beam Cannon AP2
[Hvy] Lightning Beam Cannon AP2
E-WEB Repeater AP2
Acid Rifle (formerly the HAR) AP1
Heavy Acid Rifle (formerly Acid Beam Rifle) AP2
Rocket Launcher AP3
Launchers, Acid Weapons, and Flamer should also be able to get different levels of AP based on the quality of the weaponsmith ammo obtained. Again, that goes to the concept of being able to be reloaded, which I don't know if it is possible now, but should be.
(I got most of these from another poster, with only a slight modification)
Message Edited by TonPhannan on 03-30-2004 02:50 AM
brilliance
this man has laid out a plan for you devs!
knockdowns! use of the UA skill!! ap and ammo!!!
it's amazing, you have this at your fingertips!
ok i am personally starting a vote, whoever agrees with 85% or more of this skill tree, simply post "Aye"
those agreeing with less than the above simply post a "ney"
count 'em up after a couple days, see what you have devs...
Hate to say it guys, but it's time to give up on a new skill tree. The devs are taking active steps to mend our current skill tree. This means that it is what they want it to be. Maybe if we are lucky it will get a few large changes, but i'm pretty sure they would never reconstruct the whole thing.
Even if they did a total revamp it would take a month or so to implement and then another 2-3 months to re fix. Garaunteed it would make a lot of people mad in some form or another, so for around 4 months all there would be would be more screaming.
Its a moot point. The commando tree sucks, get over it. If you don't like it move on.
The fact that commandos have almost become synomnomous to whining is pretty darn sad.
_________________
I, Joe commando, not your average Luke skywalker.........
Ton...please send your CV to SOE...I think youll do a very good job there....cause if you dont know more about Commandos in RL or SWG...at leats you got a LOOOOOOOTTTT more creativitythan our devs.
Nice Ideas!!!
I apologise for the flame, had just gotten off from playing my commando and that usually makes me quite pesemistic. I like to look at it this way though. It took them 2 months to change the numbers on a few weapons, just so they could do what looks like it's going to be subparr damage. How long is it going to take for commandos using constructive posts to get a larger change and gasp! new skills!.....At this rate it looks like never.
I've been a commando since a week after i was one of the very first creature handlers on correllia. (was like top 5) A week later i decided that creature handler was too twink, go figure, so i changed to commando and that took around a week at that point. I don't have an exact date, but it was at least a week before a month had gone by. So that makes me a commando for over a month now, maybe more. To compound the situation i am based on the fllurry server. This means that my first commando weapon was an acid rifle a couple weeks ago. That is still the only commando weapon on flurry asides from the crap ones you get at the theme parks. Now we MIGHT see new weapons in a couple more weeks and they will be worse dps than my dh17 pistol at master marksman?
Forgive me if I'm a littl, well, really bitter.
Don't get me wrong, i would love to see something like this happen, but if it does i think i'm going to take a parka with me if i ever go visit Satan..... 
/aye
the tree is great and i like it (wouldn't have any problems with the new prereqs anyway 
)
some abilities could be troublesome but in overal i like it very much!
I will have to agree with swissarmywolf though, that the devs as they dont even seem to really pay attention to what we write, would do such a change.
But let's hope for the better. You got my Vote
Since i have nothing better to do because comandos have not been fixed on live yet....a few editys that you might want to think about adding.
"Change qualifiers from unarmed 4 to explore 4 and change the boxes bellow etc..." In your thread you seem to have alot more unarmed abilities in it than exploration. Perhaps requirment as is, but add some +explore in the intrusion tree. The exp numbers should be greatly increased for this tree too. Every advancedweapon proffession except bounty hunter has a combat exp line but the tree looks something like 35k, 65k, 80k 100k, not 2k, 7k.... In fact the total combat, or commando exp, required would come out to the total weapons experience needed to master the tree. This would keep it in line to other other proffessions exp requirements.
"All weapons except laucher pistol should not be able to fire under 20 meters" The flamethrower and acid rifle should be added to this list since they would only be effective at closer ranges. The closer the better for these ones.... And also, an easier fix than a limit restriction, just make these fire while prone weapons.If they fixed the bugs in commando weapons, you would not be able to fire these when the npc's get too close. You could even have the kneeling animations and whatnot, except when you select use on the weapon you count as firing while prone.
In all the weapons trees you have put a +speed and +accuracy mod for each weapon. Since you get these weapons higher up you have less pratice with them and thus you have less bonuses with them......but you could combine all these mods to a single mod for the entire tree to make it +launcher speed and +launcher accuracy only. You don't see riflemen or pistoleers or cabineers or swords yadayadaydada with a + mod for each weapon they use and thats because they are all the same general type. For instance in the launcher line, 1 oversized weapon with low accuracy and lots of kickback would be just as hard to use as the next oversized weapon with low acuracy and lots of kickback. The guns might be a different species but they are still the same family.
A few miscilanious things for devs to think about.
-All other clases with specials have aditional time tacked on to special moves to balance them. This even aplies to cone/aoe type moves. I can panic shot etc... to max range why can't the commando do so with their weapons. Isn't the 15 seconds delay bad enough?
-While the laucher pistol is flashy for particle effects these can kind of get anoying with lag. Alot of people also tend to think that a pistol doesn't fit in our proffession and i agree. Why not give us a reapeating blaster and put some specials for it in the heavy weapons support line. (In the case of the post above, the launcher line) Repeating blasters were everywhere at that time and you have none within a galaxy divided. Hell, if you did this 99.9% of commandos would never say a word about the disapearence of the launcher pistol.
-A little bit of checking on the aoe on blasts woud be nice. A lot of the time more than 1 creature will spam the combat box with damage, but only the one you targeted will get it's ham reduced. Cone specials should be tested in game, not just in the code, to see if this works as well. If the numbers actually work to exact spec, maybe adjust them so they work as intended (lol). In other words make the blast radious large enough, no matter what the numbers actually say, that you can hit a couple things that LOOK real close together.
-Recharges would be nice. Weaponsmiths get a whole darn line for munitions. Use it. A few ideas on this just to get you started. 1) Use the vitality system. When a launcher runs out of charges you can use a rocket pack to reaload it at a lower vitality. This lowered vitality could be shown as a decrease in damage because of the limited reussage of these types of weapons, or it could simply be a lower max # of charges. 2) Make them have no charges but a durability of about 250 base. 3) Or get rid of charges all together and add +x amount of generic ressource here to compentsate, these are massive guns bordering on artilery that we are talking about here.
-Pet peeve If your going to fix the schematic for the beam rifle, certify someone for it. Certify anyone for it. If it's not meant to be certified then delete it.
A few changes that would be neat, but not very important on my list...
-Flame single and acid single could be changed to do very little damage, but still last 15 secs. In that 15 seconds, for every second that your target is in range they subastain that lowered damage. This could reflect a target getting hosed with napalm or acid. Reduce the damage by about half base but apply it every secound.
Example:
Average hit (random numbers) 200-600. Flame single 1 hit 100-300. When you are using a flame thrower, NO ONE should want to be close to you. If flame/acid single was something like this it would explain the 15m range. Otherwise alow the flame/acid single to be used at full range. Same goes for flame/acid cone.
-Satchel charges fall into this "neat" catagory
-Commando only armor also falls into this neat catagory
-E-web Definatly falls into this neat catagory. It could be about the same stats as a t21, but with a much larger speed but take some time to set up. It's large amounts of damage would be balanced by the lack of specials like all heavy weapons and it would also have the set up time, around 15-20 seconds. After use it would have to be put away again, another 15-20 seconds.
Could we get stuff like this added in, say, a month or 2 from now? 