Commando Archive

Interesting...but what about just lowering the dot damage on Flamesingle down the the strenght of /healthshot2 for pistoleer...but with nice burn damage...Also make flamesingle1 and flamecone1 fall in line with the rules of no-incapp and no-db like other DOTs, but leave level 2 specials the way they are...think of the level 1 specials as a quick easy burn...and level 2 as a full on flame scortch...

I agree with moving /flamesingle2 to Master Commando as well...

I don't know why people hate dabblers so much. I'm a weaponsmith who CAN'T master commando. I think for getting to lvl 4 on the flamethrower tree I should be able to use a flamethrower pretty darn close to what a master can. Right now, I'm missing the best flamethrower special, I think that's punishment enough for not mastering.

What needs to be done is a weakening of the flamethrower DOT (make heat resistance apply to it) and a fixing/balance overhaul of the other trees (preferably adding some pistol bonuses for the launcher pistol). There are plenty of us out there who don't want to master commando, but want to be able to use a certain commando weapon (maybe we'll see HAR dabblers if it ever gets fixed). I think that should be kept as a viable option. There already is a reward for hitting master (flame cone 2). You shouldn't be forced to pick up 3 trees you don't want to be able to use the weapon from 1 tree effectively.

I disagree... There needs to be a decent reward in each line of commando.

The entire profession needshelp. It's not attractive to move one skill to master just to make the other 3lines look good. lol.

I don't see it as a "anti-dabbler" crusade...especially since we all dabble...the question/issue comes down to, is that 1 tree too powerful by itself....

What about this radical idea...leave all power levels where they are...move flamesingle2 up to master...move flamesingle1 to flame2...and move flamecone1 to flame 4....

Then enhance the LP so it is more useful for those who might dabble the Commando profession...weaker weapon, so make it more inviting to dabblers...it's basically slightly more powerful then a pre-patch FWG5, but not as fast...This would spread out the dabble factor and take less eyes off of the FT specifically...

Not sure the specifics, but the idea seems sound...

I'd much rather see dot effects like flames, bleeds and such take into account armor and resists. This would put to rest the overpower'ed nature of the flamethrower. It would force us to use other weapons.

Like as a pistoleer you can never really rely on just one gun alone... Generally a good pistoleer needs to carry at least 3 different pistols with different dmg types.

Our profession this should be even more so the case.

I want a world where when I face a creature with 100% heat resists and acid vunerability that it actually makes sense to use the acid rifle, or to use rocket launchers or grenades.

I am not willing to accept a re-org of the just the flame line specials to compensate for the current inequities of the armor/resists system.

Combat medics should be the only class that does not have to worry about armor or resists when applying DOT's.

I'm sorry...I just figured that fixng armor resists are a given...I think we all want that as that is the way it was meant to work...that was meant to be included at least with my proposal...but armor resists may not be enough...

I would like to see armor resists go into effect, and then a re-evaluation phase, and then consideration of further changes like what I proposed or what Tac proposted.

I thought I already shot this down....

This is aBAD idea for the following reasons:

(1)Ignoring theDOT, any commando with a flamethrower does less damage over time than many other classes. This is even more so with flame single 1 and flame cone 1 which do half as much actual damage as flame single 2 and flame cone 2. The DOT is already the only advantage we have. If you take it away, all commandos except masters are weaker than all elite class members.

A 3333 or 4444 commando having less power than a 0030 pistoleer (stopping shot) because there is no dot is not an option.

(2) The flames for flame single and cone 1 are already weaker than the flame for flame single and cone 2. No further reduction is needed or appropriate.

(3) We have 3 broken trees...the only way to advance through those trees is by using the flamethower. If you take flamethrower specials away, commando becomes an impossible class to master (unlike other classes ex: Master Pikeman took me about a week and a half of grinding from novice brawler to finish)

(4) By moving the only good damage attacks we have to master, we are forced to weather through 16 boxes of commando skills with no specials whatsoever, or flame single or cone 1 at high levels of the grenadeer tree. In other words, commandos are gimps until master (unacceptable).

(5) It takes 112 skill points to get NOVICE commando, and 126 skill points to master flamethrower (grenadeer). It takes 92 skill points to MASTER teras kasi, fencer, swordsman, pikeman, rifleman, carbineer, and pistoleer.

It also takes about the same time to get togrenadeer as it takes to master any of the above classes. All of the above classes have to grind through ONE intermediate tree to move up to all the the advantages and specials that the elite classes provide (including being to handle and kill mobs that give much more experience). We on the other hand have to grind through FIVE intermediate trees (all using weak weapons against low experience mobs), in addition to the flamethrower tree to be able to use a flamethrower. Our time investment is no less than other classes.

Consequently, there is NO reason for devs to "balance" us or our dot with other classes. We spend more skill points and have to spend just as much time, if not more thanmasters of all elite classes spend getting to grenadeer.

I totally agree with knighthawk...

If...

(1) The flame dot were changed to be resisted by armor resistances (50% heat resistance = 50% damage from dot)

(2) BUT in return we got the heavy acid rifle tree accuracy fixed and the HAR changes to AP1 (acid damage)

AND

(3) We got a couple of good specials and accuracy mods to go with the Launcher Pistol (blast damage)

I would be a VERY happy camper.

The current problem is that we have ONLY ONE weapon with ONLY ONE type of damage. If you gimp it. you gimp us.

However, if you fix the other trees and make the flame dot subject to heat resistance, everything is happy because we can change to the weapon most advantageous to the situation.

Any change to the flamethrower that does not fix ALL of our other weapons at the EXACT SAME TIME, will gimp the class and is unacceptable.

I thought I already shot this down....

Wow...trip over that sizable ego much...lol...just kidding...

(1)Ignoring theDOT, any commando with a flamethrower does less damage over time than many other classes. This is even more so with flame single 1 and flame cone 1 which do half as much actual damage as flame single 2 and flame cone 2. The DOT is already the only advantage we have. If you take it away, all commandos except masters are weaker than all elite class members.

And as I am sure you are aware since you follow posts closely, everyone making these suggestions also agree that we need some fixes before any DOT reduction or changes...so that is a mute issue and not needed to be restated...

(2) The flames for flame single and cone 1 are already weaker than the flame for flame single and cone 2. No further reduction is needed or appropriate.

Another given, but the question is...Is Flamesingle1's DOT to powerful...not the special, but the DOT's effects and tick amount...don't look at it as we cost more so we should be more powerful, but instead, think of it as at the amount of skill pts we cost, is the DOT's power enough, too much or just right?

(3) We have 3 broken trees...the only way to advance through those trees is by using the flamethower. If you take flamethrower specials away, commando becomes an impossible class to master (unlike other classes ex: Master Pikeman took me about a week and a half of grinding from novice brawler to finish)

Another given and off subject...This is about the FT specifically, not the other broken trees...we should all hope that our tree's are fixed before any changes to the FT go into effect...if the Tree's were fixed, then we'd have other options to make our way through our trees...it could be worse...most other hybrid professions require 3 or 4 different types of xp to advance...we only require 2 like many elite professions do...

(4) By moving the only good damage attacks we have to master, we are forced to weather through 16 boxes of commando skills with no specials whatsoever, or flame single or cone 1 at high levels of the grenadeer tree. In other words, commandos are gimps until master (unacceptable).

Again, like most have stated in the past...fix our trees and this is a mute point...give the LP alone more useful specials and there you go...a fine start...and you don't have to be a 1 weapon wonder...We shouldn't have to rely on one weapon to get through all our trees...that's just silly...

(5) It takes 112 skill points to get NOVICE commando, and 126 skill points to master flamethrower (grenadeer). It takes 92 skill points to MASTER teras kasi, fencer, swordsman, pikeman, rifleman, carbineer, and pistoleer.

This is not about skill point cost...it's about what you get when you arrive...you could make the same arguement by adidng +1000 damage to all the BH's specials...heck they cost more shouldn't they have more power...OR would that severaly throw them out of balance as compared to other professions...the arguement of "we cost more" is not a valid arguement for that very reason...yes, we cost more, but does thecost vs power balance?

We on the other hand have to grind through FIVE intermediate trees (all using weak weapons against low experience mobs), in addition to the flamethrower tree to be able to use a flamethrower. Our time investment is no less than other classes.

But we also require on 2 types of xp once at novice where other hybrid professions require 3 or more...and our weapons are capable of higher damage, which could translate into us advancing faster then another hybrid profession that costs less skill points...so in essence, our time investment is less at our novice level then other hybrid professions...See how your own arguement could then be turned against us?

So to sum up...you've shot nothing down...you have demonstrated the need for further evaluation, but by no means are you right and other's are wrong...it doesn't work that way...There are just as many holes in your arguements as many others...

"I'm a weaponsmith who CAN'T master commando. I think for getting to lvl 4 on the flamethrower tree I should be able to use a flamethrower pretty darn close to what a master can."

Getting grenadeer title gives you the same, exact dot as master commando has. so no, you do not do 'pretty darn close' damage to what a master can.you do EXACTLY the same damage a master can. Thats the problem.

And again, any change to the flamer MUST be done after the other weapons are fixed.

Garvin,

Here's the problem...

You are basing your whole counterargument on "if our other trees are fixed, this is a non issue."

Tac doesn't want our other trees fixed. Nor did he ask for our other trees to be fixed. He simply is asking for a self-nerf of the flamethrower. Consequently it makes perfect sense for me to say "nerfing the flamethrower alone doesn't make sense because it is our only weapon."

If you read the very next post I made, you would see that I would agree to a small nerf of the flamethrower if (AND ONLY IF) or other trees are fixed first.

Also, I think assuming we will be fixed before we are nerfed is naive. Pleasenote that the developers have stated NO plans to fix our 3 non-flamer trees within the next 6 months, even though they HAVE made promises to other classes. If our flame dot is "balanced" as Tac is suggesting within the next month or so (along with theotherweapon fixes), we will have to go through several months of ineptness and worthlessness before we ever see any fixes.

Being gimped for 4 to 6 months while devs get agound to fixing us is NOT an option. Fix first...nerf second...

Also, I take issue withyour comment that all combat classes should be created equal (despite skill pointcosts). Skill points should be directly proportional to combat power. Why? Because a person with extra skill points can invest those points in other combat professions.

This is NOT everquest, and each player does not have to pick one class. Instead, player can spend skill points to diversify across several classes. This raises the issue however of whether a player who spends all of their skill points on combat should be more powerful than a player who doesn't...

Using your example: Master Bounty Hunter takes 217 skill points, Master Commando takes 168.Do Bounty Hunters hit harder?Not at all. Do bounty hunters have a definite combatadvantage?Heck Yes, they get some great specials and extra accuracythat make them very formidable in combat.

Now, is it fair that BH get better specials and accuracy because of their skill point investment? Heck yes! Master Commandos can also master Pistoleer/Carbineer/Rifleman, Smuggler, Teras Kasi/Fencer/Swordsman/Pikeman, etc. to improve their specials. Master Commandos can also master weaponsmith, armorsmith, architect, chef, dancer, musician, etc. which add nothing to combat.

There is no reason for a Commando/TKA to be just as powerful as a Commando/Armorsmith, and more importantly, for a Commando/Armorsmith to be able to compete with a BH (who cannot craft).

Commando have more flexibility to supplement their combat power with skills from other classes. For example, a Master Commando/Master TKA now has 80% damage mitigation for BOTH ranged AND melee, as well as meditate and many specials making them either comparable or superior to a BH. If you choose to put all your points into combat, you deserve to be good at combat. If you spend some points on crafting/healing/entertaining, you do not deserve to be as strong in combat as someone who has.

A commando CAN be as formidable as a BH if they use skill points to buy more combat skills, but SHOULD NOT be if they spend those skill points on combat.

This exact same rationale applies to Commandos compared to pistoleers, rifleman, carbineers, fencers, TKAs, swordsman, and pikeman.

The irony is laughable: In this very thread there are players who are fighting against "dabblers" who do not spend the skill points to become full master commandos, yet those same people want the same combat power as players who spend more skill points than they do on commando.