Commando Archive

Well I thought it's about time I finally discuss, since this is our central issue.

Many of us believe by fixing the effects in our Weapons all our Problems will be solved.

Well that's not quite true.

Let me Explain, but first look and read this.

Commando
Primary Role: Heavy Weapon Specialist
Secondary Role: Medium Range Damage Specialist
Offense: Very Strong(5)
Defense: Moderate(3)
Crowd Control: Minimal(1)



The Commando is the specialist of Heavy Weapons. An entire line of unique heavy weapons are available in the Commando's arsenal. The Commando also receives many bonuses making them more proficient with standard weapons when combined with other profession skills. Whatever the damage dealing requirement is for a situation, the Commando has the answer.



Profession Mixing Tip: Commandos are intended to be the weapon specialists and are the final heavy damage dealing profession along with Rifleman and Swordsman. Commandos focus on their potent damage dealing capability rather than having a varied utility or strong defensive ability. Adding additional ranged profession skills to a Commando creates a very potent damage specialist because instead of having a few special abilities for a specific set of weapons, they can now stack their profession with other professions to gain a wide variety of special abilities. Alternatively Commandos may decide to increase their tactical flexibility by learning skills from other professions.


Ok so, AoEs.

Now there is no doubt that AoEs are useful. Especially Damage AoEs. The reason we believe this to fulfill our role is because we can deal damage to multiple targets at once. Now being able to several targets for the same Damage sounds awesome, but there several flaws.

First being that in order to hit all your targets for the same damage we must have 100% Damage. However this is unlikely and would easily make Commando a FOTM in large PvP conflicts. However one can still argue that doing even 40% Splash Damage to multiple targets is still beneficial. Which is true, so really this isn't much of a flaw.

Second being that the CU Focuses on One versus One Combat. No Longer can you engage multiple enemies of your Level and expect to win. Now while even if you can hit all your enemies at once for the same damage you will lose, unless you can somehow hold back being attacked twice. See many have the false Idea a working AoE will let you kill multiple things. Now this may be possible against weak opponents, but against multiple foes of your Level you will die on your own. However there is one nice benefit. In a Group versus Group Scenario a Commando can easily help take out several opponents in a shorter time. So this is not the complete flaw either, it just isn't good unless your in a group.

Third being what the heck good does an AOE do if your fighting One Opponent? No AoE can save you in a One versus One fight, as it will do no additional Damage. So that leaves us with only are other Utilities like the Flame DoT. Sadly these are not beneficial enought to change the outcome of a fight. Now you must consider when I say this I speak of just a Master Commando. Now many of you are saying that's problem, you need another Profession. While generally this is what you do tohave an Effective Combat Template, our concern is only with Commando.

So we must see to it that Commando is equivalent to any other Profession of the same SP Cost? Especially considering Commando is a Full Fledged Combat Profession, and not like Squad Leader or Creature Handler, which are more Support like, or Hobby Professions.

Now One on One with any other Master who will win? A Master Commando versus a Master Fencer, Master Commando versus a Master Pistoleer, Master Commando versus a Master Bounty Hunter. The list goes on. Commando has no Specials, save those from Ranged Support which can be used with our Weapons. Sadly non of those are on Par with at all with other Master Combat Prof. Specials. So are Weapons must be greatly more powerful. Well you can't make them the most powerful in-game then everyone will be a Master Commando, and just use our Weapons with their Specials. So we are left with an AoE, and some minor Effects. Non of our Weapons effects can help us beat another Master of another Combat Profession. A Commando will just about always lose since basically all we can really do is Fire a Master Weapon Back at them with a Weaker Special and some Weak Effects, while that other Profession can fire a Weapon of equal Damage Ability, with more Powerful Specials and Effects.

The fact is AoEs don't justify us.

Now what I can't understand is this. Some of you reason that we can only be a Support Profession. Meaning that unless were with someone else, you are un-able to stand on your own. How can you possibly have such an idea. Commando in not another version of Squad Leader. How is a Commando to level if they can't do it own.

That is terribly wrong. Everyone has the ability to level own of their effectively, yet you would say we cannot. That is utter rubbish. You are basically saying there should be no more Master Commandos. Now it is not impossible to level on your own as a Commando, but doing so would be such a difficult tedious task, to be un-worth while, because you only get a better Weapon next, which is no better then anyone else's Weapons of that Level.

Don't you see it, there is no Point to be a Commando.

However some of you reason that there is one option. Crowd Control. With AoEs attacks you can effectively Root a Mass enemies, which is huge Bonus to any Crowd Control Profession.

The problem is only with Crowd Control Profession is Commando viable. Now lets look at our Role, to which most everybody else fits in the CU now.

Commando
Offense 5
Defense 3
Crowd Control 1

There it is. However this tells us the worst thing we shoudl be at is Crowd Control. A Carbineer/Pistoleer should have better Crowd Control, yet right now Commanod with any other Crowd Control Profession is the ultimate thing, since you can spread your effects over to many targets.

The Problem with that, is THAT IS NOT OUR ROLE!

We are too boost the Damage, and Defense, and add a tiny bit of Control to whichever Profession we are to ever link with with.

Commando by itself doesn't even live up to it's Role since we really can't do that much Damage on own.

The Commando Profession is to boost the Damage and Defense mainly when Combined with another Combat Profession. However we do not do that in any way shape or form.

What Commando needs is Specials, like everyone else. Now granted we will have to lose the Ultilities built into our Weapons. So then all our Weapons would be equal to that in Dmage of Rifles, just that our Weapons are mainly Medium Range.

However we could keep our Ultilities in our New Specials.

I have already Proposed a system to which exactly fits our Role.

Commando would have a Ultility Specials that add effects and States.

We would still have AoEs. All our AoEs will be focused in Grenades. Thsi will be the only way we do AoE Damage and Effects. In what I propose Grenades are not really a Weapon, but actually our AoE Special. This also would also to make Grenades true weapons, that do real Damage.

We would have Melee Specials, so that even a Melee Profession that is joined with Commando can have Specials from both for Close Quarters Combat. These Specials would also benefit us especially when things get to close, so we can defend ourselves. This is to justify our Reason for Unarmed 4 as a requirement for us.

We would have several High Damage Specials, that would do more more Damage then BH's Critical Shot, but cost and have about the same Speed. This way Commando would deal damage to that which it should. Cause we should be one step above a BH in Ranged Damage and Equal to a Rifleman.

We would have a Special that Boosts the Damage you do by about 1/4. This Special can be used by anyone. Thus anyone, who takes up Commando can use the Special to add more Power to their attacks for the ultimate in Damage! This would also us do deal the heavy damage we so long for.

I feel that with my Ideas or something very similair can we achieve our Role. We are the Medium Range Damage Specialist, the Heavy Weapon Experts. Our job is to deal the Most Damage from Medium Range. However we are not better then a Rifleman since they will usually have more range the us. And Swordsmen are to be only be Close Range.

The real Commando Profession lies in a dream here,

Clicky

If we do not strive for this, in some way or form, we can never live up to our Role, if we keep the system we have now. We must all realize this and make it clear to the Devlopers that this change is needed. If we cling to what we have now, Commando will be a nothing Profession. To which only will be useful to those with Crowd Control. Also I have been told that the AoE is not to change when use with Specials. Yes that means our Precious AoEs are not suppose to Root everything in our AoE. Only the main target should receive a Root. So you see your are supporting something that is just a Bug anyways, and will likely be removed.

I beg of all my brethren Commando, not to let us stay as we are, otherwise we doom this Profession. I relaize we cannot make the Devloper do anything. But we must try. Since when have Commandos ever settled for less. We should always strive to be better! Especially when are Broke and do not fulfill our Role!

I didn't say it was impossible to Play Commando.

Though right now it is rather limited Role.

Also can you imagine what it would be like to Grind just Commando.

With only a few weak Specials, and a few weapons you can use without ticking everything off, it would be uh very hard alone.

The Problem everyone's excuse is pick up another Profession, so you have Specials. That's the Problem. Are only concern is Master Commando. We cannot consider other templates to make Commando a workable Template. My point is our Role is very limited, and we are not much of Profession. Besides the Weapons, is there any reason to have Commando, as a part of Template, other then the fact that you like it? No there is not. The Problem is anyone who picks up Commando must use our Weapons. To me that forces them to be Commando. Commando should instead have Specials that benefit everyone, so that Commando becomes the ultimate Power Up Profession for everyone's Tenplate if so they choose. Right now we don't do squat for Melee Professions. We don't even give them another Weapon.

We must have Special Abilities. Enough with this AoEs and Built In-Effects crap. We need to Boost the Damage of anyone else's Weapons who takes up Commando, and have Abilities both useful to Melee and Ranged folks.

We don't right now. All we can do is an AoE. Yes great for Crowd Control, and fighting an enemy group when you have a Group.

But how does an AoE boost your Damage if your only fighting one thing? Don't you see any time you are fighting One on One just as Master Commando, you have nothing to do greater damage. All you can do is fire the PFT a Master Level Weapon with Ranged Shot. So besides the little Elemental Damage and Flame DoT, which don't boost are damage enough to be a 5 Offense, when compared to anyone else. In fact even a BH with only 4 Offense will out damage us alone against a Single Target.

Is our Role only to do Splash Damage and nothing more?

Where does it say Commandos are the Masters of Mass Damage?

Our Role right now is

Commando
Offense 3
Defense 3
Crowd Control 3

Our Damage is Moderate, our Defense is Moderate, and we have some Moderate Crowd Control in the form of the AoE on our Weapons.

Hmm we are a Clone of Squad Leader wouldn't you say. Funny that we to must have another Profession paired with us if we want to be effective on our, otherwise we must always be in groups.

As for your statment of goign through Corvette. To my knowledge there were CL 192 SBDs on the Corvette, everything else though is CL 80.

Now I suppose you could sneak past those SBDs, but with an AoE how exactly could you sneak past them all, since there is usually a group in any mission Critical Spot.


Again though I'm not saying we can't do anything. I can still go places and kill things with my PFT. However I simply feel that even when AoEs work and Weapons effects we won't live up to our role.

However what if you had a different Template. Different Profession not being a Commando. Would you not say you could do better then you could now? I know I certainly could do many a thing with a different Template. The thing is it is not the Commando skills right now that make us Commandos, it's just us and our talent. The sad thing is we limit ourselves with our Template right now in most cases.

Yes our weaknesses have taught us to adpat, but are you saying we could not adpat to become better if our Profession truley lived up to it's role?

Yes we are Ultility Profession I agree. But I suggest our AoEs be in the form of Powerful Grenades, that in a way are a Special Ability. We could have States and Effects that worked for sure if we had Specials for them, just like Pre CU, where the Flame DoT came from our Flame Special. What if we had such a Special again? What if we had a Damage Special that does more then BH's Critical Shot? What if we had a Melee Special that was also useable with our Flamethrower in hand as to Beat our Enemies senseless with it? What if we had a Special that could boost our Damage Output even?

Do so few even wish to consider such things? Have we all accpeted what the Devs now do with us to always be right?

Whoa whoa....stop the pressed, I just noticed this:

"Commandos focus on their potent damage dealing capability rather than having a varied utility or strong defensive ability."


We focus on damage dealing capability rather than having a varied utility? Yet according to the Devs we are utility? This explains why they no longer say that the "5" in offense no longer applies...

I guess our profession role was changed without us really knowing about it, and we're still incorrectly listed as a damage dealer =/. Geez, so contradictory...

What we need with AOE, is to have some of our weapons to have AOE but the same damage as now (commando only speaking, where its only a tad bit higher than a fanshot...if 100%), and to have other weapons non-AOE but with more powerful damage or a built in multiplier of sorts (either critical strikes, actual increase of damage, etc)

Something along the lines of having short range but area affecting weapons (the PFT), and a concentrated fire weapon (LBC) thats longer range, just to throw two weapons used by the master commando. This in itself would be self balancing, as you'd have to get in rather close with AOE - close enough to not be able to combine the most damaging special (sniper shot) with the most powerful AOE, but at the same time focus on potent damage dealing as our role once called for.

Or, have our grenades be the only AOE in commando, that are powerful and unable to be combined with specials, and allow our weapons to be powered-up in a damaging, not AOE, way.

Anyways, as long as we see Heavy Weapons that have built in effects, we won't be seeing ranged specials in our profession. But utility is NOT a bad thing, it just has to be handled better than it was; no redundancy, useful, etc. If all our utility was useful to a Master Commando, potent, and fully working...we'd be a sizeable force on a battlefield and have a very unique way of dealing out the pain.

Hey guys, ever thought about having our AOE weapons have less elemental, but 100% AoE...while our non-AoE weapons to have incredible large amounts of elemental damage? (like 500 for example). We may have something with that idea, where our weapons wouldnt get multipliers and potentially become unbalanced but, have the addition of large amounts of elemental damage to do singular target damage dealing.

Both types of weapons would have state effects too.

Honestly, I would be willing to drop state effects for a powerful single target weapon.

I'm new to the game and I'm working on a MSmuggler/MPistol, with 0400 in carb, but I'm trying to get 0400 in Commando for the Assault Armor and the General Ranged accuracy bonus. I was gonna go Master commando, thinking it was the Damage Dealer class in SWG, but after reading these forums and actually trying to grind commando, I realize it's as pointless as it is impossible. Aggroing everything in sight is the worst possible thing to do in these types of games. To make a profession that specializes in that is crazy.
I may drop both the carb and commando for medic skills. What do you guys think?

---

StarNick wrote:
Or, have our grenades be the only AOE in commando, that are powerful and unable to be combined with specials, and allow our weapons to be powered-up in a damaging, not AOE, way.

Anyways, as long as we see Heavy Weapons that have built in effects, we won't be seeing ranged specials in our profession. But utility is NOT a bad thing, it just has to be handled better than it was; no redundancy, useful, etc. If all our utility was useful to a Master Commando, potent, and fully working...we'd be a sizeable force on a battlefield and have a very unique way of dealing out the pain.

---

Yes I would rather see Grenades become a powerful AoE thing, and have no other AoEs. Grenades are suppose to be powerful, and their main purpose in war is to hurt many enemies, or damage something really tuff. I want to see Grenades something someone actually wants.

As for Utility. We can have Ultility, but to have Utility Profession is stupid!

May I quote again,

"Commandos focus on their potent damage dealing capability rather than having a varied utility or strong defensive ability."

See we are suppose to do Damage! Damage! It says we aren't suppose to rely on having a bunch of effects like DoTs or KD. We aren't even suppose to have Strong Defense.

We are suppose to be about pure Damage!

An AoE is a strange Utility that is generally un-wanted, especially in PvE Scenarios.

See this is why I reason that our AoEs, only belong in the limited use of Grenades, to which have no use to us now.

Then I argue that Ultility be removed from our Weapons. All of them. Instead any DoTs, or Effects would come from a certain Special. Then we also need High Damage Specials.

On top of that I reason perhaps the Key to Commando.

An ability that increases Damage Output.

I like to call it "Rage".

Rage would be a lot like Duelist Stance or CoB, but be the Offensive version, increasing your Damage. Do I lie when I say a Rifleman/Commando should be the most Damaging Profession in-game with 10 Offense?

Using Rage that Rifleman could make all there Rifle Attacks stronger.

Look the idea fits perfectly!

"The Commando also receives many bonuses making them more proficient with standard weapons when combined with other profession skills.� Whatever the damage dealing requirement is for a situation, the Commando has the answer."

See when using Rage you can use all of your Specials and other Professions to acheive maximum Damage. Think. Such a thing would also greatly benefit Melee Folks who want to pick up Commando! Commando would actually benefit a TKM, think about that!

Do you see what I'm getting at. I'm not claiming to know everything, I've just dreamed up the way Commando could be. The more I look at what I've written the more I see it fits what the Devs first said. What the Devs layed out there in those documents is what we should be!

Where is the Medium Range Damage Specialist. That's us! Us!

We are like the Carbineer version of a Rifleman, except that means our Weapons are considered Big Bulky Weapons, like the Repeater Blaster (I know we don't have one), or the Rocket Launcher.

We aren't about Spreading Damage all over the place. We are about inflicting a lot of Damage on one thing! That is our Role. That's what we asked for before CU. Remember FlameSingle 2? We took pride in the fact we could hit anything harder then anyone else, even though our refire rate was so slow we had lower DPS. We aksed for that to still be us. We did not ask for all our Weapons to become Grenade Launchers. We just wanted some nice stuff to be done with our Weapons. The Devs gave us that Role, a Damage, some Ultility Profession. But they faltered and goofed making us a pure Ultility Profession.

That's not what we are suppose to be. Do let the AoEs Damage fool you. An AoE does not help your DPS in One versus One Scenarios. How does that make us a Damage Specialist if we can only work when there are Multiple Enemies being hit by our AoEs.

Look again I quote.

"Adding additional ranged profession skills to a Commando creates a very potent damage specialist because instead of having a few special abilities for a specific set of weapons, they can now stack their profession with other professions to gain a wide variety of special abilities."

Se we are suppose to have some Specials we can Use. What I proposed gives us a few, and not quite as many as others, but when we have to sets of Ranged Specials we can truley do something with our Weapons. That is the point I'm getting too. Having Two Good Specials to alternate is far better then having built in Effects and only one Set of Specials. Plus it's easier to implement.

Also, but I'm not sure, that I heard a Dev say that AoEs are suppose to do only the AoE. That means using a Root Attack with the Flamethrower would only Root the primary target despite eveything else taking Damage in the AoE, those other targets are not to be Rooted. It is a Bug, and will likely be removed if we ever get a working AoEs. It's to easy and Over Powering a pick for any Crowd Control Profession.

So do you guys understand why I am saying this. Special Ablilities is the way to go. Part of me hopes that this is why the Devs are taking so long to fix us. Because they have relaized this, and are attempting to Revamp us entirely.

---

BRI2K wrote:
I'm new to the game and I'm working on a MSmuggler/MPistol, with 0400 in carb, but I'm trying to get 0400 in Commando for the Assault Armor and the General Ranged accuracy bonus. I was gonna go Master commando, thinking it was the Damage Dealer class in SWG, but after reading these forums and actually trying to grind commando, I realize it's as pointless as it is impossible. Aggroing everything in sight is the worst possible thing to do in these types of games. To make a profession that specializes in that is crazy.
I may drop both the carb and commando for medic skills. What do you guys think?

---

Thank you.

See the other Problem. Leveling.

We tend to forget this since most of us just Respeced to whatever in the CU and already had Commando. It's exactly as he says. AoEs ticking off everything in sight is not good for the PvE aspect, thus the Leveling aspect of our game.

This is the reason I so hate us to think of ourselves as only a Ultility AoE Profession. That can't be what we are suppose to be. And the CU documents prove it. If the Devs changed us they would have had to change everyone's else Role in some way too. If they did why don't they change what they have on the Site?

No because our Role didn't change, they somehow goofed it up.

Message Edited by TK-132 on 06-30-2005 03:37 PM

As if the AOE wasn't annoying enough, a few shots from my launcher pistol fills the entire area with smoke. So you got a group of targets all aggroed and charging, and no one can see anything!
I save my launcher pistol for a few shots at the last mob of a lair, or the lair itself. This is only after asking the group if they don't mind the smoke.

I could understand having a Commando in the game if there were buildings or vehicles that needed blowing up. But they don't have that. We have groups of mobs that need to be seperated, controlled, and taken out one at a time. Splashing minimal amounts of damage around uncontrollably while filling the screen with smoke isn't Commando. It's Spastic.