Commando Archive
Thread: Leveling system and damage modifiers are a serious blemish on an otherwise great CU.
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Enix_Dayspring
Mon Apr 18, 2005 4:56 pm
#1
I've been happy about alot of things done with the CU. The new roles for each profession and the viability of grouping are things that I've been salivating over.
But the glaring flaw in the system is the attempt by the developers to plop a leveling system where none was ever meant to be.
SWG was never meant to be a leveling game. Sure, there has been a "hidden" level system as far as mission terminals would try to determine how powerful you were and send you to missions spawning similar "level" creatures. But it was not the all restrictive, "dead in one hit" system with the damage multiplyers that are currently being tested.
What is the purpose of the leveling system being added? This is something I don't think we've really had explained to us.
SWG has was NOT SUPPOSED to be about grinding levels. The game wasn't really supposed to even start until your template was finished and you could go out and play out the parts of your Star Wars heroes. The problem was that things were added to the game that required grinding, unfortunately (holocrons anyone?). Leveling games are centered around the fact that it will take players X amount of months to grind to the last level, then of course, new top end content must constantly be added to keep these players happy.
The beauty of SWG has been that it is not about being equal to every other player that's level 50, but that if you are a skilled player, you're able to do amazing feats that you can brag about to your friends. You are actually getting to be a HERO! You are given the tools of your profession (accuracy, speed, etc) and the skill of the player takes over from there.
The Damage Multiplyers of the leveling system ROBS us of the ability to be a hero. If anything purple to you can kill you in one or two hits, it doesn't allow you to be a hero. Now you're just like every other level 80 player in the game.Even worse, if your chosen template doesn't allow you to reach "level 80", you are completely handicapped, even if you are 3 times a better player with only 1 elite combat profession as most players are with 2.
Devs, don't make us all level 80 clones who can't shine beyond our level. Let players make themselves heroes, not just the average joe. GET RID OF DAMAGE MULTIPLIERS!
Message Edited by Enix_Dayspring on 04-18-2005 04:58 PM
StarNick
Mon Apr 18, 2005 5:08 pm
#2
"The Damage Multiplyers of the leveling system ROBS us of the ability to be a hero"
I gotta agree with this thread to the extent of this line. Previously it was a Lvl/Skill based MMO, but with Skills playing the dominant role. Now...its more of an equally 'balanced' playing field with both skills and levels, both having important in the gameworld rather than one defining the other. The problem with this however, since levels are important...skills take a backseat and the skill-based game that made it so unique is only partially there (in terms of Professions and specials...THAT I love with the CU, and which makes it so different from any other MMO currently out there)
I gotta agree with this thread to the extent of this line. Previously it was a Lvl/Skill based MMO, but with Skills playing the dominant role. Now...its more of an equally 'balanced' playing field with both skills and levels, both having important in the gameworld rather than one defining the other. The problem with this however, since levels are important...skills take a backseat and the skill-based game that made it so unique is only partially there (in terms of Professions and specials...THAT I love with the CU, and which makes it so different from any other MMO currently out there)
Rathask
Mon Apr 18, 2005 5:36 pm
#3
/agree
The damage modifier kills the fun. Especially when you're riding along on your bike and something equivalent to an AT-ST spawns on top of you. Two shots and you're down for the count before you can run away.
Also, I've noticed that the melee and ranged defense mods don't seem to do anything. It's all about the level. This kills one of the BEST things about SWG: the fact that it was the skill modifiers that counted and not the level.
Enix_Dayspring
Mon Apr 18, 2005 5:52 pm
#4
The problem is that SWG wasn't designed to support a level system. Unlike say, City of Heroes, which is all about levels and was designed from the ground up as a pure leveling game (heck, there aren't even any items in the game at all).
Trying to plop a leveling system into a game that was made to be skill based (both character and player skill) is bad all the way around, and definately not something anyone was asking for.
Ohetie
Mon Apr 18, 2005 6:06 pm
#5
this is my major problem with the CU, other than that everything else is fantastic.
Ohetie
CyberData4
Mon Apr 18, 2005 6:52 pm
#6
SWG did always have a leveling system, it was just hidden. And skills were the dominant portion. I honestly don't like the leveling system. It makes the game feel far too artificial.
I love just about everything with the combat upgrade. But having a dominant leveling system is not fun, it's not intuituve, and I dare to say it's not balanced.
As a 2.5 profession combat template, I'm capped at "lv 80" Yet as I'm walking around I see lv 200+ creatures? Now this doesn't bother me, what annoys me is the insane damage multiplier.
Same with lower leveled mobs, they don't seem to get any multiplier when I shoot at them.
My personaly feeling is the level system needs to be changed alot. I like the con system, and that SHOULD indicate how a fight will go, but turning a skill focuses game into a level based game might not be the best move.
Raptor2k1
Mon Apr 18, 2005 8:30 pm
#7
They need to take out the damage modifier. Period. It makes more problems than it solves. They also need to go re-adjust creature/NPC damage to compensate for the change, as they have enough more HP as it is, to make them suitably more challenging.
Instant-death from insane damage multipliers is flat out lame, there's no way around it.
StarNick
Mon Apr 18, 2005 8:42 pm
#8
Exactly raptor....the damage modifiers are there so we can't take on purple mobs and win (like the red con mobs of old). But if they compensated for damage rather than based it off of a PC's CL, then some folks (namely tankers) will be able to take more damage and tank those critters in a group, but not dish as much damage. Likewise, folks without as much defenses will die fairly quickly. No matter what, without a group either component of a great PvE group would die alone against it...
Skills do the job automatically and don't need an artificial component to ensure balance. You need to make sure that players can't become nearly invincible, and that purple mobs can do a crapload of damage based off of your skills. So even if its purple to you because its CL 150, if you have 250 ranged defense you wouldn't be so hard hit (still would be though, but not -as- hard). But if you had 200...then heh, you're dead in a few shots. Since everyone's a CL 80, we're pretty much all hit the same regardless of defenses.
Likewise...this would make it easier to balance out with grouping too...we wouldnt be in need of a seperate grouping system that would allow us to fight CL 340's. As the right groups with the right strengths would be able to do that.
So I say ensure balance via other means rather than restricting combat itself.
Skills do the job automatically and don't need an artificial component to ensure balance. You need to make sure that players can't become nearly invincible, and that purple mobs can do a crapload of damage based off of your skills. So even if its purple to you because its CL 150, if you have 250 ranged defense you wouldn't be so hard hit (still would be though, but not -as- hard). But if you had 200...then heh, you're dead in a few shots. Since everyone's a CL 80, we're pretty much all hit the same regardless of defenses.
Likewise...this would make it easier to balance out with grouping too...we wouldnt be in need of a seperate grouping system that would allow us to fight CL 340's. As the right groups with the right strengths would be able to do that.
So I say ensure balance via other means rather than restricting combat itself.
Darth-Dominus
Mon Apr 18, 2005 9:27 pm
#9
But they dont seem to want to budge on the level crap, the flashy lights, the comabt queue or the horrendous icons.
IdrisTycho
Mon Apr 18, 2005 9:31 pm
#10
I have mixed feelings about the leveling system. On the one hand I hear what most of you are saying and it is tough to deny that one hit incaps do very little for adding a sense of adventure or complexity to the game.
Joe Newb says, "It is level 38, I am level 18. If I fight it I am dead in two hits."
Not exactly exciting to think about. On the otherhand, the new system prevents the soloing of group content, which is a good thing.
The older system allowed you to stack your defenses and offenses in order to fight things that you should never have been able to fight solo. This created other problems, like people soloing everything. Stackable defenses and offenses coupled with the artificially capped exp system and you virtually had to solo everything to get good exp.
The leveling system in the CU has forced grouping on people; and not gently either. It simply creates a scenario where if something is sufficiently high level, you must group. The business about 1 hit incaps from level 300 creatures will be remedied soon I am sure, so I am really not to concerned about those. I am talking about stuff that is closer to our level, but we can't imagine fighting it because it will kill us easily.
The main negatives of the CU are
- forced grouping
- stats and skills playing less of a role in winning or losing
- the feeling that you can not play beyond your means, as one poster put it, you can't be the hero.
The postives are:
- PVE balance is easier since a level can directly determine the health and damage capability of a creature vs. the player
- Exp rewards can be scaled properly instead of having to cap rewards for creatures to avoid exp farming.
- Grouping between high and low level players can occur easily.
I believe that with a little work, the current level system could be tweaked to be close enough to the older system that most would not mind it. Think of it as a pendulum. Before the CU the pendulum had swung all the way out to the right where stats were all that mattered, defense, accuacy, mitigation, damage, speed, armor piercing, etc. Now the pendulum has swung to the left and hovers over level being all that matters.
The solution to this is to find a happy medium. Something that ensures that no player will ever solo a Krayt dragon, while at the same time allowing him to use equipment and skill selection to his advantage vs. things that are at least in the ballpark of his level. We need a general widening of the playable level range.
If as we level higher and higher, the range of levels that we can fight also grows, it makes it possible to find content that is not worthless to fight and has some chance of hurting us. Right now if I am level 50 and a mob is level 30, it has no chance to hurt me. Likewise if the roles were reversed I would have no chance of hurting it. I am saying relax this a bit as we level. Don't make things red and purple so fast, and don't make them green and gray so fast either. Give us a larger range of things to kill. And make our stats meaningful against the stuff that is within our level range.
That has to be the goal of the coming high level content phase of testing.
Unfortunately I fear they will be spending far more time correcting things like: miss-certified weapons, CTDs, skills that don't work, skills that do the wrong thing, crafting problems, exploits, and the list goes on. They have created a system where a balance can exist between the extremes: "I can solo a krayt because I have the perfect setup", and "I can't kill anything solo that is greater than 10 levels higher than me."
All they have to do now is tune it.
Message Edited by IdrisTycho on 04-19-2005 12:33 AM
Raptor2k1
Mon Apr 18, 2005 9:33 pm
#11
I'm not so sure I'd say they aren't willing to budge on it...
At this time, the good news is that it has become clear that there are a few key areas that seem to be garnering the most feedback - (1) the con system with respect to how an NPC/creature will con to you based on the level of the equipped weapon or weapon certification level; (2) t he general behavior of AI and; (3) the placement of creatures being inconsistent with the level of the surrounding area (beginner, intermediate, advanced) .We are aware of all the concerns (is that putting it too mildly?!!!) and particularly those related directly to these central issues and I want to reassure you that we are working hard on looking at them even more closely.
This, to me at least, implies that they are aware everyone and their dog is pissed off with how the level system currently works. If they just left it like they originally claimed (that the level system was always their, just now it's visible to give a better guide on what you can fight) we'd be all set, minus a few minor creature balancing tweaks.
I really can't see this not changing, as it completely screws over folks who participate in combat that don't spend all 250 skillpoints on it, as they'll take extra damage from pretty much anything in the high end. Of course, so does everyone thanks to the ridiculous level range (200's? Come on!)
It'd be nice to get some dev confirmation though. This will make or break the CU IMO.
IdrisTycho
Mon Apr 18, 2005 9:41 pm
#12
If theyextendlevel range of things that you can fight without dying and things that can fight you and acutally hit you, most people would be satisfied on that score. If they further made the skills and skill mods more important for the things that fall into your level range, again most people would be happy.
They don't have to strip out the level concept, they just need to back it off a bit.
Ohetie
Mon Apr 18, 2005 10:01 pm
#13
the main issue i concur on is the fact that the modifiers should go. I durmi shouldn't hit a CL80 than it would a CL1, a durmi should hit for constant damage. This should hold true all the way up through whatever the hardest mob in the game is.
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