Commando Archive
Thread: Blixtev...Help us help you!
Message Edited by RankorCity on 07-15-2005 09:08 PM
Devs won't listen to anyone. The last thing they will do is help us help them. Chances are bigger they remove the Commando profession from the game than fixing it. That's what I believe.
Exactly! If we know what we are supposed to be then we can tell you if we are. If we don't know what to expect then we just make our own assumptions. Of course our assumptions are based on SOE released CU documentation but hey....
RankorCity wrote:
Lets put a halt to OUR speculation of Commando should be and focus on what YOU/Devs want (or envision) Commando to be...Because unless we know what you guys want for us, all we are going to do is bang heads repeatedly. However, if we know what you want of us, we can help you in that direction. We will just have to accept that your (speaking generally here, as in devs) vision doesnt match ours....
Ci est la vie, I suppose.
So all we can do is move forward...
Having said that, lets get to the meat of it...
Garvin and/or Stern had stated that your intention was to make us a "toolbox" profession. So, I guess, what I would like is some clarity/confirmation here, on this and other issues. I'll accept (though I may not like it) the fact that we do not have specials, per se. I'll bite and accept that the intention IS for our weapons toBE our specials.
Unfortunately, however due to coding issues, thats not working. Thankfully, thats being worked out, hopefully.
I guess what I am trying to say is that if we know what you guyshave in your minds for us to be, straight from the horses mouth so to speak, we can better assist you in gettingthere. My feeling is that you guys dont know what to do with us. We've been abandoned for so long,that our role seems a good bit convoluted. Our prof seems to be filled with contradictions, that could be worked out if we knew what the intention for us to be is.
As a side note, are we really that complex of a prof to code? It seems like there are SO many variables that the engine has to consider when calculating our mods out...
I dont mean to sound like I am calling you guys out. I just want to know WHAT we are to be, HOW we are supposed to do it. IfI/we know this, we could probably get to the end result (a successful, viable, working profession) that much faster.
"As a side note, are we really that complex of a prof to code? It seems like there are SO many variables that the engine has to consider when calculating our mods out..."
Exactly...our role derived in the CU Documents was pretty straightforward, where we focus on potent damage dealing...not varied utility/defensive measures. I think we'd all like a return to that simplicity.
Message Edited by StarNick on 07-15-2005 08:00 PM
My apologies RankorCitymy post read more negative than intended.
Kraig Yakcam
Veteran Master Commando
BH
*** Has Mastered the Cloning profession.
BLOODFIN
Falck Yakcam
Veteran Master Commando
BH
A nobody extraordinaire
VALCYN
Falck Yakcam
PYRO
Master Commando
Rifleman
STARSIDER
Message Edited by KYakcam on 07-16-2005 06:30 PM
StarNick wrote:
I too would love to hear what Rankor requests Blix, if you're still viewing the community forums. Its a bit hard to try and work with the knowledge that "the CU documents no longer apply" and "we're utility". Thats not what was proposed to us, and makes communial-dev relations a bit awkward at best. And this isn't the first time either folks here or myself in the Correspondent forums have brought this up either...
"As a side note, are we really that complex of a prof to code? It seems like there are SO many variables that the engine has to consider when calculating our mods out..."
Exactly...our role derived in the CU Documents was pretty straightforward, where we focus on potent damage dealing...not varied utility/defensive measures. I think we'd all like a return to that simplicity.
Message Edited by StarNick on 07-15-2005 08:00 PM
The part I highlighted is a MAJOR concern.
IF our role has changed from what the CU Documentation exposed us to be, we havent heard that...I would think we would be pretty ok with changes, if we knew the direction that we are supposed to be headed...
Are we to be nukers? If we are to be nukers, is it for single target, or doing damage to ALOT of targets? If its to single targets, we arent fullfilling that role, and its not going to be a very easy fix. If its doing damage to alot of targets via AoE (which is what our current set up indicates despite the fact we do very little damage to multiple foes, even IF our AoE was/is working), arent we stepping on the Carbineer's toes? After all, they are the ones with the most AoE attacks, and they fullfill that role better than we do, with better attacks, weapons, and armor...Their AoE attacks are 100 percent damage to all targets caught in the cone, or area. Ours are 100 percent primary target / 40 percent cone/area targets....
Also, if we are to be nukers of single targets, arent we stepping on the riflemans toes?
Are we to "soften up" our opponents en masse via states (i.e. grenades, various other heavy weapons such as the HPBC, RL, HABC, and HLBC)? If that being the base, its not working because of the small radii of our weapons, and again, low damage output of our weapons despite their designation as "heavy". If this is our role, arent we stepping on the Pistoleers toes? Again, their AoE attack is 100 percent AoE, to all targets in their cone (fanshot). Ours, 100 percent AoE primary target / 40 percent cone/area targets....
OR...
Alternatively, are we to be a toolbox, merely for other professions to use to strengthen theirs? Do they pick up a tree to benefit speed? Or accuracy? Or defenses?
People rarely pick up singular trees because CL, and top end speed/accuracy/defense mods are all that matters in dealing damage, or defending against it. If my accuracy is less than another commandos, and we use the EXACT same weapon down to the stats,I do less damage than the more accurate one, even if we do hit the exact same target....
A Rifleman can pick up some Carbineer and get the SAME crowd control abilities as the utility of the Heavy Weapons (area KD from the Rocket Launcher for example), BUT do more damage when using said crowd control specials than that are inherent in the Heavy Weapons themselves. Most Rocket Launchers peak out in the 350ish max damage range. That same Rifleman can use a 1100 damage T21, use the area KD from Carbineer, WITHOUT having to switch weapons AND do more damage at the same time. It obsoleses Commando very, very badly. It makes NO tactical sense, or even much sense period, for that same Rifleman to spend the extra skill points (alot more actually, because of the unarmed prereq to even get Novice Commando) to get the area KD weapon from Commando, when they can get it cheaply (both in skill points and weapon) from Carbineer...The area KD from Carbineer affects a much larger area than a Rocket Launcher anyway. So why would the Rifleman spend the skill points and the credits to be able to use a Rocket Launcher? The resource requirements for the RL are insane anyway. I did a vendor search on the bazaar on the Ahazi server (arguably one of the top 3 most populated servers) and found NO Heavy Weapons, save Flamethrowers, Plasma Throwers, and Heavy Acid Rifles (no doubt leftovers! LOL)
Its just very, very /boggling! LOL
Message Edited by RankorCity on 07-15-2005 09:56 PM
"A Rifleman can pick up some Carbineer and get the SAME crowd control abilities as the utility of the Heavy Weapons (area KD from the Rocket Launcher for example), BUT do more damage when using said crowd control specials than that are inherent in the Heavy Weapons themselves. Most Rocket Launchers peak out in the 350ish max damage range. That same Rifleman can use a 1100 damage T21, use the area KD from Carbineer, WITHOUT having to switch weapons AND do more damage at the same time. It obsoleses Commando very, very badly. It makes NO tactical sense, or even much sense period, for that same Rifleman to spend the extra skill points (alot more actually, because of the unarmed prereq to even get Novice Commando) to get the area KD weapon from Commando, when they can get it cheaply (both in skill points and weapon) from Carbineer..."
The concept of our weapons being able to be mixed with other specials (a KD and a Root...or a KD and disarming shot) is nice on paper, but how it was implented makes this an advantage thats hardly an advantage and hardly used. Why? Damage, we're not a states person...we're a damage dealer. Why? States don't seem to stick as often or last as long. Why? In the end, its just a whole lot easier for a better return on damage using my Plasma Flamethrower with Charge Shot, Stopping Shot, Crippling Shot, Disarming Shot, Supression, and Burst shot.
And thats exactly what I do. Switching to other weapons to use with those specials is not only cumbersome in combat (sometimes if you're spamming specials or have a few qued, it'll be after a few attacks until you really switch weapons...or lag even), and your damage output gets drastically downsized.
I have never felt more useful as a commando - with my Carbineer specials that not only allow me to do my damage, but also allow me to do better utility. The only real utility we use are the Fire DoT, elemental damage, and AoE (well, soon hopefully)...and guess what? Those help us FOCUS on damage capabilities. Locking us out of specials because our weapons do innate states (that do not effect damage either) is just a contradiction of our role.
Think of the DoT/elemental damage/AoE as a focusing crystal for energy, in a lightsaber. Thats what we are right now, but we need a power-source. If that power-source (damage) comes from our weapons, we'll be overpowered...or underpowered as we are now. We need a power-source...and that can only come from specials, as the crystal is but a component to the larger puzzle, not merely the puzzle.
It would be nice if our weapons could do their current innate states, as then our weapons would "power-up" our own damage special. That would be the only special we would have, nothing fancy with state specials (like burst shot or eye shot) or position shots - as those come from our weapons. Having an internal power-up system is a lot more wholesome for the profession than requiring external specials. If need be I wouldn't be mad if for the sake of balance, our innate states (not the fire DoTs however) were taken away...or something was taken away in our "utility" toolbox (like AoE...having all our weapons AoE isn't good! Having some is ok and a cool idea, but not all)...but we gotta be able to do the damage in the end, thats all that really matters. As well as the cool explosions.
Special or specials, either way it has to bring us back to the routes of "focusing on potent damage capabilities". And it'll fit in the context of what was pitched to us...where our weapons would "power-up" specials, but this time within our own profession so we won't have to rely on other professions for actual damage. Since our weapons already do states, we wouldn't need a charge shot, or a eye shot, etc...
At least in theory, we've already gone down this path (but went left, and not right), but I think it could be the easiest that'll fit the documents as well as time/development constraints. As you said there may not be much time available to work out an entire profession's specials (especially when "technically" they're in our weapons), and that may or may not involve a overall weapon revamp since there would be redundancy in having a charge shot special when our RL already does a kd, etc etc.
Now, this would only work if our weapons were brought to a master level through advanced versions and we be granted damage specials. But you're right, if its just one...one slow one, it may hurt as well (still better than nothing). So the possibility exists in having degrees of damage specials, with faster/less damaging one, medium speed/medium damage one, an AoE special (replace our innate AoE maybe? A Turn off function?), and heavier hitting/slower one. All lead to the same goal, damage...all allow us to focus on our potent damage.
If the idea stretches to where our weapons no longer has innate states or anything built in, it'll be way too big to development in my opinion, as it'll be CU Alpha all over again. So getting us to fit back with what we have (and were suppoused to have...never fully realized or deviated from the path) may be the best route to go.
Maybe I am reading too much into what you are saying, but we need more than ONE special. One special will severely hamper us by the cool down timer alone....I'm hoping I am misreading you...
Honestly, I dont see them giving our specials back. Lets face it. It would take quite a bit of SOE resources to code BACK in CU balanced specials for us. It will take more resources that they are willing to devote to an admittedly...dead...profession (except for FS monkeys). If we were a more popular prof, we MIGHT see that kind of attention. But the neglect that has been shown to Commando over the last 2 years (with the exception of nerfs), it has pushed more and more players away from it.
And frankly, who can blame them....
Also, when a new player (or any player) is looking over the profession, the FIRST thing they notice usually is Commando - because Commando, by name alone,SCREAMS combat class....Then they notice we have NO specials and wonder what good our profession could possibly be. I love being a Commando, its unique. Commando is not so much a profession, but a state of mind...As in "Lets blow the living **edit** out of everything!!" - Its the James Dean of professions - live fast, die young, leave a good looking corpse. I love running around firing off the RL, or the flamer, or even the HPBC and people seeing the effects (graphics, not the damage) and sending me tells asking what weapon I am using because its so cool...
We're just kind of outthere. Truthfully, we arent anywhere because we dont know WHAT we are supposed to be. And we cant offer any constructive criticism, be it praise for what works right, or informing them of what doesnt, because we dont know our role or place in the game.
If we are utulity. If we are a toolbox. Fine. I'll live with that. I'll still consider myself a Commando first, a pistoleer a distant second. ButI need to know the intended utility, the intention of our tools to be able to adequately assess whats right, whats wrong, whats working, whats broken. But the fact remains, a Commando is inferior to a Pistoleer, a Commando/Pistoleer is inferior to a Carbineer/Pistoleer. Or any combination thereof.
Which brings me to another point....
Even if we are autility...A toolbox profession to make other professions better, we fail in that roleas well. How? Because EVERYTHING we can offer another profession (in terms of speed, accuracy, and defenses) can be gottenfrom other sources. One being attachments.Or the looted limited use phalange modifier things (the name escape me). Further, if someone needs more speed, they can go up a tree in another profession, get the needed skill mods AND gain access to more specials. As an example, if you are a Pistoleer/Rifleman, if youwant more accuracy and speed, and defenses, go 0440 Carbineer...You gain skill mods AND some very potent specials. If you try and get the same mods from Commando, you must first waste the skill points on 4000 brawler, THEN go 4400 Commando and get a LESSER return in total mods, and NO specials! Going up the Carbineer trees costs 15 less skill points to gain MORE mods (and lets not forget - specials) than could be gotten from Commando.
It just doesnt add up....
Message Edited by RankorCity on 07-16-2005 02:40 AM
Message Edited by RankorCity on 07-16-2005 03:02 AM
Sadly, Nick, after rereading alot of what you and I have written in regards to the problems that Commando has, and the necessary changes to make it viable, it would just about require a total revamp of Commando. Which they wont do, because we are neither popular enough, nor iconic enough. Commando doesnt sell subscriptions. We dont have a big enough following.
They just wont devote the resources to Commando that it wold require, basically, because it makes no sense for them to do so. SOE doesnt benefit by doing so, from a business (read: fiscal) point of view. We MIGHT get lucky and catch the eye of a dev who works on us in his or her spare time. Looking at us from their perspective, outside the AoE problem, Commando works.There are no real bugs in our profession. Once the AoE is fixed, we will pretty much...work. The problem is, we dont have a role. Or if we do, its been changed, and we havent been informed of it. We just have to read between the lines to see where they want us to be, in the absence of a formal announcement.
Its obvious that our role as set forth in the public release of the CU docs has changed. If our role is a toolbox, utility, we work. Its just doesnt work in a way that makes sense.
Yes, you can gain utility from a Rocket Launcher in the form of a knockdown, for example.
Yes, you can gain speed/accuracy/defense mods from our profession. Its not smart to go Commando to get it, when you can more return for less investment elsewhere (via other profession, attachments, etc), but you CAN get it.
And since we "work", and DONT have an iconic following and because we dont sell subscriptions (again from a business perspective), they are going to devote their resources to professions and aspects of the game that DOES have a following. That does sell subscriptions (i.e. Smuggler. Jedi. Bounty Hunter. The GCW.)
We just arent a high priority. We never have been.