Combat Medic Archive
Thread: R-P-S and anti-combat medic templates
Page 1 of 2
jfang
Fri Apr 23, 2004 7:57 am
#1
It is easy to say "pick up an anti-combat medic template and leave us alone". However, the reason why many don't and continue to cry for a nerf is a simple numbers game. There are few combat medics, and lots of ignore combat medic templates.
Imagine that PvP combat is a giant of game of rock - paper - scissors. You have "combat medic templates" - "anti-combat medic templates" - and "ignore combat medic templates". Given the limitations of resources for an individual player (in particular SP), a person can not be all three at once. So a anti-CM template can beat a CM template, an ignore-CM template will beat a anti-CM template (which "wasted" SP), and a CM template will beat an ignore-CM template.
However, the distribution is not an even distribution, because of PvE combat. There is a dis-incentive to be a combat medic template, due to limitations in PvE combat when soloing. There is a disincentive to be an anti-CM template, as very few NPC and creatures have poisons and diseases, and those that do only have them stick infrequently. Not to mention that since there are few combat medics, so you also have limited PvP capabilities in small group combat as compared toan ignore-CM template.
So, "everybody" takes a ignore-CM template, and in general has an even match against another ignore-CM template ("I lost, but that was close, good match").They also occasionally easily beat an anti-CM template, or handily lose to a combat medic. They chalk the easy victory up to their "l33t skillz", and their crushing defeat to Combat Medic being a broken class.
This problem does in factexist as groups get larger. However, it is less dramatic. If a group has 10 riflemen-fencers versus 7 riflemen-fencers and 3 riflemen-doctors, there is a difference in strength, but not nearly as decisive. The problem with groups though is that for the most part they are comprised of individuals (who make their template individually), so the lack of anti-CM templates is still present, whereas the chances of facing a combat medic in combat increase.
The implications if this argument is that PvP combat is inherently, and intentionally,unfair for an individual player. So, when participating in PvP combat:
1) When soloing, pick one of the three templates mentioned above. When you fight a template who is designed to take you down, accept your limitations. If you throw rock and the other person throws paper, nothing is inherently unfair about your loss. The problem isn't that combat medics are too strong, it's that there are so few combat medics and so many ignore-combat medic templates, so nobody want's lose all those combats against the majority of ignore-CM players. (You can nerf combat medics to uselessness, but do you really want to play a game of "rock"?)
2) Play in a larger group, where everybody can cover each other's weaknesses. You have a better chance of not facing a group which is "perfect" for killing you, and youmight have more fun. In particular, try taking on a template which is very bad by itself (such as a master doctor-musician). Yes, you will not be able to solo anything or do very much by yourself as a pure support character, but the group as a whole will have more fun and be more effective. (Wasn't that the point of PAs, to make this possible, rather than a group of TKMs always hunting night sisters and krayts?)
So, yes, when the devs said a long time ago that poisons diseases were working as intended, they might still think this despite the large effect we have on PvP combat. The problem might not be that combat medics are too strong, it's that nobody wants to play the counter. So maybe the devs can start giving NPCs and creatures more poisons and diseases so that more players start picking up doctor, and making combat medics be more effective in PvE combat. This would result in more of a 33-33-33 split of templates, rather than the 15-20-55 splitwe see now...
Assumptions in this post include:
1) Every template has at least one other template (no matter how bad the other template is by itself) which can kill it 95% of the time. This includes a doctor-rifleman, doctor-combat medic, fencer-rifleman, etc...
2) Combat medics, with their strong poisons and diseases, arefundamentally different than all other combat classes
3) There exists an effective counter to combat medic attacks (maybe you need a ton of SP, excellent resources, and be "good" at your template, but an effective counter exists)
4) There are few combat medics in the whole player base, and that general gameplay significantly affects the population of PvP combat.
Twentytolife
Fri Apr 23, 2004 8:54 am
#2
Not sure what your getting at here.
But if its nerf cm I agree 
jfang
Fri Apr 23, 2004 9:46 am
#3
What I was trying to get at are:
1) Explaining why the current mix of classes who participate in PvP combat (and PvE combat too) is the way it is
2) Telling somebody to switch their class to deal with a combat medic is an appropriate response, and likely what the devs want people to do. However, also noting that in switching their class to deal with a combat medic will likely make you weaker overall, again what the devs intended. You can't be effective against *all* classes at *all* time. The reason why people cry "nerf CM" is they happen to be the "scissors" which beats the ignore-CM template's "paper",which in turn beats the anti-CM "rock". The problem is there are so few "scisors" and "rocks"that nobody wants to be a "rock", as they will lose the vast majority of small PvP combats
3) Combat medicines are extremely powerful. However, this was likely the intention of the devs, as they are only too powerful for some (but not all) templates. Others can effectively nullify combat medicines without too much difficulty
4) Nerfing combat medics will make combat and the galactic civil war much more one dimensional (as there is now a single dominate template)
5) An alternative to weakening combat medics would be to make anti-CM templates more attractive to play. (For example, imagine they created a new creature called "poisoned monkey", which had a 1% chance of dropping anattachment which adds 1000 damage to a rifle, but had a 90% chance of poisoning you for 15 minutes for an 800 tick poison each hit. How much more demand would there be for doctors in PvE, and thus, the PvP combat system would better be equiped to deal with combat medics without affecting CM's directly.)
6) Even if you don't personally kill everybody, you can still add greatly to a group if you are not an "uber l33t" template. The problem is everybody is in a "single player" mode of thinking, and thus are not willing to sacrifice their single player adventuring to be a dedicated healer, or a dancer, for example.
TheGreatOne00
Fri Apr 23, 2004 11:11 am
#4
jfang wrote:
What I was trying to get at are:
1) Explaining why the current mix of classes who participate in PvP combat (and PvE combat too) is the way it is
2) Telling somebody to switch their class to deal with a combat medic is an appropriate response, and likely what the devs want people to do. However, also noting that in switching their class to deal with a combat medic will likely make you weaker overall, again what the devs intended. You can't be effective against *all* classes at *all* time. The reason why people cry "nerf CM" is they happen to be the "scissors" which beats the ignore-CM template's "paper",which in turn beats the anti-CM "rock". The problem is there are so few "scisors" and "rocks"that nobody wants to be a "rock", as they will lose the vast majority of small PvP combats Appropiate response maybe, but do you think 1in 4of pvpers should have to be doc in order to negate a couple CMs? The reason why people call nerf on CMs, is how drastically a couple CMs can change a full out battle. Doctors can not keep up with cures in the current system. I know I can cure myself and another if the other side has a *good* CM. And once I cure, whats to stop them from just hitting everyone with another AE.
3) Combat medicines are extremely powerful. However, this was likely the intention of the devs, as they are only too powerful for some (but not all) templates. Others can effectively nullify combat medicines without too much difficulty I really dont think the devs ment CMs to be extremely powerful. They wanted poison to make a difference, not be a necessity in large battles. My template, fencer/doc, which I had before acklay bones negates CMs just fine...when Im with 1 or two other people max. Add in the group aspect of pvp, and there is no way a doc can do his job the way he should.
4) Nerfing combat medics will make combat and the galactic civil war much more one dimensional (as there is now a single dominate template) I do not see how this works, as in the current state Cms through poisons, docs heal it on self, the on a few others, then is reapplied. Poisons not only effectively take any good doctor out of battle, they do the most DPS in the group pvp environment. Not to mention that the area effect radius is insane, and the range is bugged.
5) An alternative to weakening combat medics would be to make anti-CM templates more attractive to play. (For example, imagine they created a new creature called "poisoned monkey", which had a 1% chance of dropping anattachment which adds 1000 damage to a rifle, but had a 90% chance of poisoning you for 15 minutes for an 800 tick poison each hit. How much more demand would there be for doctors in PvE, and thus, the PvP combat system would better be equiped to deal with combat medics without affecting CM's directly.) I do not see why you want ever other person to become a doctor because of one overpowered ability.
6) Even if you don't personally kill everybody, you can still add greatly to a group if you are not an "uber l33t" template. The problem is everybody is in a "single player" mode of thinking, and thus are not willing to sacrifice their single player adventuring to be a dedicated healer, or a dancer, for example.
I am not this "uber l33t" template, or maybe I am. Who knows. I know I dont play as a single player, hence why CMs affect me so much. Im the one who is healing poison in battles. Im the one was is buffing. I was once a CM/doc, but I decided it was time for a change.
The main problem with CMs, is there is now currently no counter except having a high percentage of doctors in your group.As it is now, CM can poison a full group as fast as a doctor can cure himself and maybe one other depending ont he oppssing CMs.
Rikilii
Fri Apr 23, 2004 11:29 am
#5
TheGreatOne00 wrote:
jfang wrote:
What I was trying to get at are:
1) Explaining why the current mix of classes who participate in PvP combat (and PvE combat too) is the way it is
2) Telling somebody to switch their class to deal with a combat medic is an appropriate response, and likely what the devs want people to do. However, also noting that in switching their class to deal with a combat medic will likely make you weaker overall, again what the devs intended. You can't be effective against *all* classes at *all* time. The reason why people cry "nerf CM" is they happen to be the "scissors" which beats the ignore-CM template's "paper",which in turn beats the anti-CM "rock". The problem is there are so few "scisors" and "rocks"that nobody wants to be a "rock", as they will lose the vast majority of small PvP combats Appropiate response maybe, but do you think 1in 4of pvpers should have to be doc in order to negate a couple CMs? The reason why people call nerf on CMs, is how drastically a couple CMs can change a full out battle. Doctors can not keep up with cures in the current system. I know I can cure myself and another if the other side has a *good* CM. And once I cure, whats to stop them from just hitting everyone with another AE.
3) Combat medicines are extremely powerful. However, this was likely the intention of the devs, as they are only too powerful for some (but not all) templates. Others can effectively nullify combat medicines without too much difficulty I really dont think the devs ment CMs to be extremely powerful. They wanted poison to make a difference, not be a necessity in large battles. My template, fencer/doc, which I had before acklay bones negates CMs just fine...when Im with 1 or two other people max. Add in the group aspect of pvp, and there is no way a doc can do his job the way he should.
4) Nerfing combat medics will make combat and the galactic civil war much more one dimensional (as there is now a single dominate template) I do not see how this works, as in the current state Cms through poisons, docs heal it on self, the on a few others, then is reapplied. Poisons not only effectively take any good doctor out of battle, they do the most DPS in the group pvp environment. Not to mention that the area effect radius is insane, and the range is bugged.
5) An alternative to weakening combat medics would be to make anti-CM templates more attractive to play. (For example, imagine they created a new creature called "poisoned monkey", which had a 1% chance of dropping anattachment which adds 1000 damage to a rifle, but had a 90% chance of poisoning you for 15 minutes for an 800 tick poison each hit. How much more demand would there be for doctors in PvE, and thus, the PvP combat system would better be equiped to deal with combat medics without affecting CM's directly.) I do not see why you want ever other person to become a doctor because of one overpowered ability.
6) Even if you don't personally kill everybody, you can still add greatly to a group if you are not an "uber l33t" template. The problem is everybody is in a "single player" mode of thinking, and thus are not willing to sacrifice their single player adventuring to be a dedicated healer, or a dancer, for example.
I am not this "uber l33t" template, or maybe I am. Who knows. I know I dont play as a single player, hence why CMs affect me so much. Im the one who is healing poison in battles. Im the one was is buffing. I was once a CM/doc, but I decided it was time for a change.
The main problem with CMs, is there is now currently no counter except having a high percentage of doctors in your group.As it is now, CM can poison a full group as fast as a doctor can cure himself and maybe one other depending ont he oppssing CMs.
You make it sound like CMs can't be killed, and are free to just continuosly lob poisons forever, when in fact, they are one of the easiest things to kill.
Here's how it really works if you're even remotely on the ball: CM throws poison, hits 5 people, CM gets killed by those 5 people, 3 of the 5 people get cured before the first poison tick, the other 2 get cured before the second.
Vampirerobot
Sat Apr 24, 2004 3:00 am
#6
I would much prefer to just have CMs fit in with everybody else, so that all fights end with "Good fight, that was a close one." The fact that CMs are so good against regular templates, and thus force the creation of a whole new "anti-CM template" just seems silly. Surely there is a way CMs can not throw the whole system out of whack like that.
911gt198
Sat Apr 24, 2004 10:00 pm
#8
The anti cm prof is DOCTOR you ever hear of that one? The ignore CM prof is EVERYTHING ELSE. Just run to your group doc when you get posioned. "buf my WHOLE group got posioned because of an area attack" Well DONT stand next to each other next time smart guy. Nothing is wrong with this profesion. Nothing is broken. Its just that people are too stupid to bring a Doc with them and too stupid to stand far apart when attacking a CM.
bradimere
Sun Apr 25, 2004 10:45 am
#9
jfang AWESOME post, one thing ya left out thos about the CM, is that we are more or less forced to go the route of artisain for harvesting our needed resources, then also since we need the ranged combat xp on marksman, it makes sense for us to dabble in one of the 3 Marksman rangedclasses. Or if we dont want to do any combat ranged, we have the 3rd option of going MDR as well to be a true support/saving others class.
over all, i loved your post, great job , 5 stars given to you.
Rabbid_Toaster
Sun Apr 25, 2004 3:33 pm
#10
Rikilii wrote:
TheGreatOne00 wrote:
jfang wrote:
What I was trying to get at are:
1) Explaining why the current mix of classes who participate in PvP combat (and PvE combat too) is the way it is
2) Telling somebody to switch their class to deal with a combat medic is an appropriate response, and likely what the devs want people to do. However, also noting that in switching their class to deal with a combat medic will likely make you weaker overall, again what the devs intended. You can't be effective against *all* classes at *all* time. The reason why people cry "nerf CM" is they happen to be the "scissors" which beats the ignore-CM template's "paper",which in turn beats the anti-CM "rock". The problem is there are so few "scisors" and "rocks"that nobody wants to be a "rock", as they will lose the vast majority of small PvP combats Appropiate response maybe, but do you think 1in 4of pvpers should have to be doc in order to negate a couple CMs? The reason why people call nerf on CMs, is how drastically a couple CMs can change a full out battle. Doctors can not keep up with cures in the current system. I know I can cure myself and another if the other side has a *good* CM. And once I cure, whats to stop them from just hitting everyone with another AE.
3) Combat medicines are extremely powerful. However, this was likely the intention of the devs, as they are only too powerful for some (but not all) templates. Others can effectively nullify combat medicines without too much difficulty I really dont think the devs ment CMs to be extremely powerful. They wanted poison to make a difference, not be a necessity in large battles. My template, fencer/doc, which I had before acklay bones negates CMs just fine...when Im with 1 or two other people max. Add in the group aspect of pvp, and there is no way a doc can do his job the way he should.
4) Nerfing combat medics will make combat and the galactic civil war much more one dimensional (as there is now a single dominate template) I do not see how this works, as in the current state Cms through poisons, docs heal it on self, the on a few others, then is reapplied. Poisons not only effectively take any good doctor out of battle, they do the most DPS in the group pvp environment. Not to mention that the area effect radius is insane, and the range is bugged.
5) An alternative to weakening combat medics would be to make anti-CM templates more attractive to play. (For example, imagine they created a new creature called "poisoned monkey", which had a 1% chance of dropping anattachment which adds 1000 damage to a rifle, but had a 90% chance of poisoning you for 15 minutes for an 800 tick poison each hit. How much more demand would there be for doctors in PvE, and thus, the PvP combat system would better be equiped to deal with combat medics without affecting CM's directly.) I do not see why you want ever other person to become a doctor because of one overpowered ability.
6) Even if you don't personally kill everybody, you can still add greatly to a group if you are not an "uber l33t" template. The problem is everybody is in a "single player" mode of thinking, and thus are not willing to sacrifice their single player adventuring to be a dedicated healer, or a dancer, for example.
I am not this "uber l33t" template, or maybe I am. Who knows. I know I dont play as a single player, hence why CMs affect me so much. Im the one who is healing poison in battles. Im the one was is buffing. I was once a CM/doc, but I decided it was time for a change.
The main problem with CMs, is there is now currently no counter except having a high percentage of doctors in your group.As it is now, CM can poison a full group as fast as a doctor can cure himself and maybe one other depending ont he oppssing CMs.
You make it sound like CMs can't be killed, and are free to just continuosly lob poisons forever, when in fact, they are one of the easiest things to kill.
Here's how it really works if you're even remotely on the ball: CM throws poison, hits 5 people, CM gets killed by those 5 people, 3 of the 5 people get cured before the first poison tick, the other 2 get cured before the second.
You make it sound like it's easy to cure poison, and docs can just continuously lob poison heals forever, when, in fact, they are the easiest things to kill. Not only that, they have to be within 5 meters to cure a poison, and can't cure it in an area.
Here's how it really works: CMs stand at 70 meters, throw poisons, and hide. Everyone is now poisoned, while the CMs teamates come in and decimate the attackers. Doctors get massacred and attacked so that they can't heal, and CM's reaply poisons every 5 seconds.
Message Edited by Rabbid_Toaster on 04-25-2004 03:34 PM
TheGreatOne00
Sun Apr 25, 2004 5:05 pm
#11
911gt198 wrote:
The anti cm prof is DOCTOR you ever hear of that one? The ignore CM prof is EVERYTHING ELSE. Just run to your group doc when you get posioned. "buf my WHOLE group got posioned because of an area attack" Well DONT stand next to each other next time smart guy. Nothing is wrong with this profesion. Nothing is broken. Its just that people are too stupid to bring a Doc with them and too stupid to stand far apart when attacking a CM.
So, first your telling people that they should "just run to your group doc". Then your saying "DONT stand next to each other". You know both are kind of hard, with CMs having what, a RADIUS of 25-30m? I mean obviously people are suppossed to stand 30m apart, then be instantly cured by a doc!
bradimere
Sun Apr 25, 2004 7:35 pm
#12
OK, Ranelaen, i posted this 1st o nthe 75 % reduction post, and will copy it to here. take a look at the numbers, and lets see were the heck you come up wit ha 90 M throw of posion !!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OMG most of you nerf criers thing that a CM can throw togeather any type of rersource to make a 500 dmg posion (non spider stim), that is the best i can do with hunting on the lowca galaxy since AUG. 03 it is now April 04, im still saving my really good resources so i can make a batch with every needed compont being perfect.
One main needed item is Class 1 Radioactive, and that wasnt seen on lowca until late January/ early Feb. now that resource is in hiding again maybe for yet another yr.
to make 1 Single PosionDelivery C Unit takes
(1) Dispersal Mechinism
-- Total Resources Needed 25 = class 2 Liq Petro Fuel, 25 Yarvin Fiberplast
(2) Identical Reiliance Compond
-- Total resources needed72 Tolium Reactive gas,72 Class 1 radioactive
(2) Indentical Infection Amplifiers
-- Taotal Resources Needed 84 Eleton Reactive Gas , 84 Titanium Aluminum
(8) units of non ferrious metal
(20) units of fungi
(20) units of Liquid Petrochem Fuel
that doesnt count failures upon crafting for the schematic, nor upon final assembly.
the stuff im using is Potency 101,Effectivness 241 (doubled = max dmg of 482), duration 170 sec. Range 33 (max thrownas a MCM = 66m)
so max dmg i can do in 170 sec (2.8 minutes) with this posion is 8194 dmg.
Look at the needed resources, and then tell us honestly that the posion units should be nerfed.
the important stats needed are OQ/UT, OQ/Cond. , OQ /PE, DR/OQ
so when we hunt for the resources we need OQ, UT,PE,DR,Conductivity.
tell me any other crafting class that requires 5 stats ? i know armor smithing takes only 4 stats, chef/BE take 3
The other thing is EVERYONE thinks a CM has unlimited MIND pool, well we done, casting posions/diseases hits us very hard in the Mind,.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OH, and Potency = the chance to land o nthe target. the higher the potency, the better the chance, but also in doing that, it will lower the dmg and range of the posion.
stujak
Sun Apr 25, 2004 11:49 pm
#13
Just thought that needed some more attention drawn to it. Excellent point
Ranelaen wrote:
Can we at least all admit that the devs screwed up. Look everyone in the game has composite 80% resist armour. So what do the devs do they give a couple classes stun pistols and everyone watches in horror as their armour is torn to shreds. Now everyone has to get anti stun armour. But there is one difference in this example. All new armour takes is a little cash. Lets say im a Commando/TKA, to fight a CM, I would have to drop one or the other. I like both and do not want to spend 2 days with a tumbler to get doctor. That is not an easy fix. Do CMs have to drop anything to fight another class? No cause they have the best mind damage in the game. Bla bla bla dps. It doesnt miss you can shoot from 90 m and it does 400-600 a tick. On average a person has 1500-1700 mind in PVP cause master dancers are rare at least on corbantis. So in essence if there is not a doctor, it takes you 30 seconds to kill any class in the game, gee after you through could you run around and not be killed for 30 seconds. Um ya. This is why people complain, they can have 3000 action, 3000 health, 1700 mind a guy with no buffs at all can kill him in 30 seconds. Heck the guy may not even get into range to shoot him even. To say well bring a doc. Thats like saying well, you can make the poisons cms, but only commandos can throw them, bring a commando next time. Would you want to be required to have a commando just so you could fight? No I didnt think so. Stop using that lame defense. Come up with viable alternatives to cms mind poison and the nerf cries will stop.
Ranelan
Master Commando - Colonel in the Imperial Forces
Page 1 of 2