Combat Medic Archive

Thread: Some ideas to balance combat medic while still retaining deadliness:

KaylBreinhar
Mon Jan 19, 2004 4:01 pm
#1

Feel free to skip the below (unless you want to learn a little more about the real-life tools of your trade) and go down to the revised list of 10 ways to balance CM while still retaining effectiveness and lethality in your profession.

Or just copy this: http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=combat_medic&message.id=25471#M25471 into your location bar and zoom down there.

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CM was my last holo prof, but I've hung onto it a little in the past few weeks (not only to max combat xp but to help on raids), and I've come up with some ideas based on real logical USAGE of chemical and biological weapons that could be applied to this game. I just posted this in another thread, and I want to know what others think:

Another reason I felt compelled to type this is some who play combat medics might be curious as to know how their craft is practiced in the real world.

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All that needs to be done to "adjust" CMs would be to make area poisons and diseases infect EVERYONE within their radius. It makes no sense to toss an area container of a bio or chemical weapon into a crowd of people and only the ENEMY gets the sh*t end of the stick. Make CM area weaponry all-infecting and you'll see them start to become increasingly rare since the only time they'll be able to use their attacks is at the very beginning of a battle when the sides are still separated. Thus, what SHOULD be implemented for SINGLE poisons and diseases is a sort of flechette (or very thin dart) on a rifle-like device with a long-delay. Another problem with CMs is that the timeframe to use poisons or diseases is based on the same basis as being able to use stims. If it were at the very least enlarged to regen time for WOUND healing, a group would have more time to find and eliminate the CM.

This type of damage already exists in a form in grenades - if you toss a Proton too close to yourself and you'll end up self-incapping. Proton nades are hilarious to me - how you can MISS with what's described as a small tactical nuclear warhead I'll never know.

Let's discuss weapons of mass destruction and their proper use in warfare to put this a little more into context:

First off, NUCLEAR weapons are the only true "weapons of mass destruction." Chemical and biological weapons destroy nothing but biological targets - piles of dead bodies might be revolting, but it's by no means destruction.

Chemical weapons were never meant to be used as OFFENSIVE war weapons. They're known as "area-denial weapons" in non-media circles. Their PROPER use is to deny an enemy usage of an asset, be it a base or a battlefield. If an enemy is ill-equipped to deal with the agents after they've been deployed, they either run or die - either way the advantage is given to the side which uses the agent, unless the wind shifts.

There are two types of chemical weapons - persistent and non-persistent agents. Persistent agents are, well...PERSISTENT...in and of the fact that they're designed to stay in one area and contaminate surfaces of buildings, tanks, planes, and equipment for long periods of time until decontamination can be accomplished...thus making it harder for the enemy to make war. Nonpersistent agents are used in the elimination of "soft targets," or personnel, which dissipate after a while allowing friendly assets to pass through unharmed - or at least at less risk than those who were targetted in the first place. :/

Biological weapons are more or less weapons meant to completely demoralize, demotivate, and incapacitate an enemy. They really have no TACTICAL advantage as they're usually contagious (to help filter their way through a group of infantry) and find their way into civilian or wildlife populations (rodents), EVENTUALLY finding their way back into the bodies of those who used them to begin with. Thus, bioweapon use in a large-scale war situation would best be described as a "you're kicking our ass, so if we're going to hell we're taking you with us" type of thing. It's this reason alone I think no terrorist organization will EVER use a weapon like smallpox in an attack - it's too contagious and dangerous to use, they could easily find themselves dying two weeks after using it because of the pervasiveness and ease of travel nowadays.

Personally, I chuckle a little every time I see a Rebel Combat Medic. The Rebellion is supposedly against the use of unconventional warfare (which not only includes the use of unconventional weapons but unconventional TACTICS as well - like torture, murdering of innocents, etc.), but the pervasiveness of Rebel CMs is almost legion. Imperial forces don't have a problem with using such weapons in war because we can cover their use up or blame it on the Rebels, which is so much easier when you control the media with an iron fist.

Just a thought. All I know is that CMs would start to consider a new profession pretty fast if they not only poison/diseased/killed the ENEMY but their entire raiding party as well because they tossed area sh*t into a PvP mob.

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Now I know the "everyone, friend or foe" radius idea isn't going to go over big, but you can't argue with the logic. If you smash a container of VX nerve gas on the floor in a building full of enemies and allies, it's NOT JUST THE ENEMIES who are going to die. It's everyone.

Now, disease I don't really agree with as it's implemented now. Disease, which for all intents and purposes let's call viruses and bacteria, start to do their dirty work after an incubation period. If you're infected with smallpox or ebola, you're not going to feel anything for a while (anywhere from 48 hours to two weeks), then the symptoms set in, THEN you *LITERALLY* get blackbarred (in the case of Ebola) as your organs begin to liquefy into a black viral soupy mush. The logic that diseases begin to kill IMMEDIATELY is preposterous - no virus can kill you in 30 seconds, no matter what tripe Hollywood puts out - the only reason viruses kill so quickly in movies is that they know they can't hold your attention past 90 minutes.

The only weapon which has the ability to kill as quickly as it does is a nerve toxin. The most common way to be KILLED by a nerve toxin is to inhale vapors of it.

Now, since I've heard rumors of "fire extinguishers" to eliminate Fire DOTs, we need to talk about the possibility of an "antidote" like those used for nerve toxins. The reason I used quotations on "antidote" are technically no "antidotes" to nerve toxins. Nerve toxins are very deadly, but they're only very deadly for a very short amount of time. Chemicals used to counter nerve agents, like atropine and pralidoxime chloride, are designed to keep the body alive long enough for the body to cleanse the toxin out of the system - something it does rather well if you don't DIE of the effects. These are extremely harsh chemicals (atropine is/was synthesized from Cobra venom) and pralidoxime chloride has the possibility of inducing cardiac arrest, so their use is technically categorized as a "I'm dead if I don't, so what the hell" kind of treatment.

Now, since I've loosely discussed the way to TREAT poisons like nerve agents, I might as well briefly impart how they KILL before closing this VERY LONG thread. When you breathe in, touch, or come in contact in any way with a lethal dose of a nerve agent, it begins to work on the central nervous system of the body (hence the name NERVE agent). That being said, nerve agents do NOT kill by melting off your skin (though powerful blister agents CAN do this), they kill by essentially shutting down the musculature system in your body by blocking an enzyme called cholinesterase. Without this enzyme, muscle function ceases. That means no heartbeat and no respiration. After that it's a race to see if cardiac or pulmonary arrest kills you first.

To make it very simple to understand - you probably have a nerve agent in your house right now. It's called bug spray. The chemical composition isn't high enough in the bug spray to kill a human being, but when used on a bug it's just as lethal as VX (or a similar nerve agent) is to humans - it kills in the same way. That being said, it's a matter of exposure. Whereas it might just take a little spritz to kill a wasp, if you took a BATH in the stuff and inhaled the vapors on a regular basis, chances are you wouldn't be feeling too great. I hope this clears things up and has intrigued a few of you to do some of your own research.

Message Edited by KaylBreinhar on 03-03-2004 07:56 PM



Death doesn't fly a JSF anymore...he flies a Gallente Thorax in EVE Online
KaylBreinhar
Mon Jan 19, 2004 4:12 pm
#2

Forgot to add something in I meant to say about a possible "antidote":

You don't feel like fighting after using one of these chemicals. In dire situations, they have to be injected directly into the heart in order to spread throughout the body before the poison is too saturated and you're beyond help. Sufficed to say, if I had to jab a needle into my superior vena cava, I wouldn't be much up for picking up my weapon and continuing to fight afterwards.

And even though you can pull the "advanced technology" card, you have to assume that the agents being used in this timeframe are far more advanced than what exists in the real world now. Thus, the "cures" should still be used with a notable chance of failure since the agents would be deadlier and the cures would have to be administered that much more quickly.

CM should become a thinking man's profession in this game - chemical and biological weapons shouldn't be tossed around like footballs.



Death doesn't fly a JSF anymore...he flies a Gallente Thorax in EVE Online
Cakins7005
Mon Jan 19, 2004 10:41 pm
#3

I just read one part of your post. If mind poison effects everyone within its radius then commandos must have a chance of setting themselves on fire. BH's must have a chance of electricuting themselves with the LLC. Creature Handlers run the risk of their creatures attacking them instead of their enemy. Ranged classes must have a chance of accidently dropping ammuntion which causes an explosion. Melee classes have a chance of their weapons falling apart and hitting themselves.



Eti Vauspavim
Dark Jedi Templar
Imperial Pilot Ace
KaylBreinhar
Mon Jan 19, 2004 11:45 pm
#4

Well, one of the most effective ways to deal with a guy with a flamethrower is to put a round in the fuel tank. That'll ruin his day.



Death doesn't fly a JSF anymore...he flies a Gallente Thorax in EVE Online
Naele
Tue Jan 20, 2004 12:03 am
#5

too long; didn't read
Pulze
Tue Jan 20, 2004 6:29 am
#6

Naele: I might have lived without that info

On the topic..
I (and many others I guess) have wrote on various threads that maybe an antidote of some sort that slows down poison could be in order.. to give enough time to fall back to your own doctors. Also doctor short range AOE cure is a nice idea that would be usefull in PvE too.

Your idea of poison infecting your own troops is a nice one but I bet theres a lot of ways to grief people with it. Maybe make it so that it would affect your group members only..
Gnuut
Wed Jan 21, 2004 1:17 am
#7





Maybe make it so that it would affect your group members only..




LOL I'd be one solo mofo on raids





Grau'din
Elder Combat Medic
Magnumus Mysterium MYST
I am not a support class.
I am a chemical warfare expert.
I am a bio-warrior.
I am a zerg-stopper.
I am a Master CM. Run for your life....

Pulze
Wed Jan 21, 2004 5:23 am
#8



Gnuut wrote:


Maybe make it so that it would affect your group members only..

LOL I'd be one solo mofo on raids







Hehe I bet it would get lonely pretty fast..
Gnuut
Wed Jan 21, 2004 5:04 pm
#9





Pulze wrote:

Hehe I bet it would get lonely pretty fast..




Doesn't get lonely at all when you use Teamspeak






Grau'din
Elder Combat Medic
Magnumus Mysterium MYST
I am not a support class.
I am a chemical warfare expert.
I am a bio-warrior.
I am a zerg-stopper.
I am a Master CM. Run for your life....

KaylBreinhar
Mon Mar 01, 2004 3:37 am
#10

I'm necroing this post because I still think the ideas contained within are valid.

In a nutshell (with some revisions and new additions):

1) Disease should have an extremely long delay until the first tick to simulate an "incubation period." Diseases should also get gradually worse over time. No more 600 first-tick diseases.

2) Poison should have an antidote that might save your life but also take you out of the fight for an undetermined time. Best RL examples would be atropine and/or praldoxime chloride for RL nerve agent exposure.

3) Poison should be shortlived and possibly carry with it a persistence factor somewhat like the logic behind approaching the Sarlacc. Real chemical weapons are extremely deadly very fast but they're only deadly for a short amount of time. The persistence factor would also enable area poisons to be used to affect an escape/form a defense by creating a "zone of death" an enemy would have to circumvent, further giving CMs a support role.

4) Area Poisons and Diseases should hit all PCs friend or foe within their radius to prevent the idiotic doctrine of throwing lethal chemical and biological weapons into a mob and only affecting/killing ENEMIES.

5) Range exploits should be fixed. If the poison/disease pack SAYS it has a 32m range, it shouldn't be tossable at 33m. If an entire group can't take down a CM at 32m (32m inside killzones of ranged professions) before he gets off a toss. This one HOPEFULLY will be fixed soon anyway.

6) Make a component for armor that can be added to give inate poison/disease resistance, like a true MOPP 4 (military terms for fully-sealed NBC [Nuclear Biological Chemical]) defense suit. Chemical and biological warfare depends on two things to succeed - 1) your enemy is unprepared, and 2) your enemy can't resist. If a raiding party is decked out in full protective gear, the only thing you're going to do is piss him off more because he'll have to go through decontamination.

7) CM toss time needs to be linked with the Medic wound heal time instead of the damage heal time. With BE Brandy a CM could get area poisons and diseases for nearly every stat out before he'd have to rest a bit. However, most CMs would merely get wound treatment speed mods to compensate for this, so perhaps a different mod altogether is needed for poison/disease delivery time.

8) Devise a "gas grenade launcher" somewhat like a tear-gas launcher with accuracy mods but no speed mods. Fire the "containers" of agent in a way that it hits the ground and disperses in an expanding pattern instead the entire radius all at once - this would give CMs the ability to target high-value PCs but enable people on the outskirts (since people who huddle in PvP nowadays deserve to die) chance to escape the AoE.

9) Biochem grenades shouldn't "follow" PCs. You don't have laser designators. They're glass vials, not laser guided bombs.

10) The more lethal the agent is, the smaller the radius of effect and shorter the range should be. Not exactly "realistic," but fair in my opinion for Spider Venom-enhanced super agents. If you have something that'll null a raid of 20 people in ONE TOSS they should have a better chance of being able to take you out before you can.

11) Give CMs area anti-toxins/antidotes. Not full cures, but rather the ability to slow the effects inflicted by enemy CMs. It makes no sense to toss the stuff and not have reliable cures/antitoxins on yourself.

And before you tell me I don't know what I'm talking about, CM was my last holo prof, and I stuck with it for over a month to really get a feel for it, and y'all ARE overpowered. TKMs are ELATED at CMs becoming the most overdone profession of the game since it takes the emphasis off of them for once. Who you really need to be mad at aren't the nerf criers, it's the mass influx of PvP knuckleheads that are making your profession 800 times more visible than it was. THAT'S what calls the nerf stick down from on high. Not a bunch of people screaming "NERF!!!"

I think these new suggestions are fair and still enable you to retain your lethality while still giving PCs a little of the chance they'd have in real life to avoid/weather such attacks.

Message Edited by KaylBreinhar on 03-03-2004 08:01 PM



Death doesn't fly a JSF anymore...he flies a Gallente Thorax in EVE Online
Bucksters
Mon Mar 01, 2004 6:51 am
#11

Im probably alone on this but i throughly enjoyed devouring every line of that post.

But, of course, i don't like the idea of nerfing CM. I'm almost a master and i feel like sticking with it a bit, because i like beating up TKA's.

Thank you for posting well informed, well presented information.

It must be a military thing :-)

Buck
KaylBreinhar
Wed Mar 03, 2004 5:58 pm
#12

Bump - looking for some constructive commentary here. Prove to everyone else crying nerf that you're willing to work with them to better balance your profession while still keeping functionality and usefulness. As I said before, it's not the nerf criers you need to be p1ssed at - it's the vast majority of PvP junkies flooding into your profession increasing it's visibilities and exploits that are going to get you nerfed, not a 12-year-old spaz who can't formulate a proper sentence.

Message Edited by KaylBreinhar on 03-03-2004 08:01 PM



Death doesn't fly a JSF anymore...he flies a Gallente Thorax in EVE Online
Mild-Breeze-Trooper
Wed Mar 03, 2004 6:14 pm
#13

Well... it was intresting to read a suggestion that someone had thought through for once.


The problem, as I see it, is that adding complexity to the system will probably never on the list of Dev priorities. Expanding area, increasing/decreasing damage from poisons, these things contrast far to much against the current combat system and would probably never be implemented.
The thing that saves us from Nerf will probably have to be simpler.


It won't be deviced by me though. It is way past my bedtime and I find it hard to even offer constructive critisism to your suggestion. But thanks for acting mildly sane on a forum that sees preciously little of that sort of thing.





Carbicide: "The victimless crime!"
BTW Yes it is true, I've tested it myself, poison only ticks once every TEN seconds!

"I lead with my intellect, wits, example and the big nasty gun that I use to shoot everyone who doesn't follow my orders"
Rennec Bibo, proud owner of some sort of carbine since november 2003.
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