Combat Medic Archive
Thread: CM redesign
This initially came from all the complaints and calls for CM nerfs and my trying to find a more palatable solution other than feeding the nerf-calls and calling for them myself. Through thread conversations on the CM board and GCW board, this is what I have (mostly) concluded. Obviously, things like resource availability, aqua warfare, and 64m range cap would still need to be looked at, but this is just dealing with the profession concept.
Premise:
I think that the current incarnation of CM's should have their heals removed and their name changed to Chemical Soldier or Bio-Warrior or some such. And possibly given the ability for ranged state effect poisons or gas bombs (whatever you want to call them), with AoE for everything but Dizzy.
Reading over the trees of the current CM profession, I would have to say that it would need a revamp of CH proportions to allow for what I am talking about as a Chemical Soldier (or Bio-Warrior).
Essentially, for the Chemical Soldier prof there would have to be a tree for Poisons (with apply poison ability), one for Diseases (with apply disease ability), and one for State-Effects (as others regarding ability), with the fourth being the skill mods for range and effectiveness. While the mods for Assembly and Experimentation would be spread out across all the schematic trees. Additionally each tree would have a counter-serum to the item for that tree (ie. one formind Poison, one for quicknessPoisonin the poison tree, one for health Disease, one for stamina Disease,in the disease tree, etc.) which would decrease the effectiveness of the dmg tick for that damage type for those so inoculated for a limited time. Prereq would not change. (For transition purposes, all current Combat Medics would become this profession; prereqs are the same, and the concept is more closely linked to the current incarnation of CM.)
Then the Combat Medic profession would have a tree for Combat Healing (incl ranged/AoE stim- and wound-paks,skill mods forCbt Med use,Heal Mind ability + Apply Field Rez Kit ability), one for Poison and Disease Healing (incl Healing Spd), one for State Effects Healing and Def skill Mods v. Chemical Agents(incl Healing Range and Effectiveness, and Terrain Negotiation+ increased /drag range, greater than Doctor ability), and one for Pistol or Carbine improvement (similar to Smuggler Pistol line, but different in abilities + the aforementioned /coverpatient ability, probably tier 2). Assembly and Experimentation would be spread across the first three noted trees. Prereq would be Master Medic and tier 4 in pistol or carbine (whichever would be included in profession).
{My reasoning is that though the Pistol is more aptly the weapon of choice for a combat medic, there are a lot of other Pistol tier professions (Pistoleer, Smuggler, BH) while the Carb gets little love, so I think it should be Carbine for the CM.}
(Of coarse all healing would be of lesser quality than what could be provided for by a Doctor in the proper Medical Facility.)
The Field Rez Kit would be a lesser version of the Doc made Rez Kit, but possibly still only Doc made (no schem for CM?). I'm not sure about that one.
For clarification, the current CM's would become and be renamed Chemical Soldiers (since that is what the current incarnation of CM is most like of these two above professions, and the prereqs are the same), anda new profession would be created called Combat Medic.
Your thoughts and suggestions are appreciated, and I forewarn that I am not a CM, nor do I personally have issues with the CM in the game. I am merely trying to respond to the many that do (incl CM's).
This idea originally posted on the Core Forums boards. Please feel free to leave your comments there as well:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=csystems&message.id=11208
In a nut shell this is what I interpret your request:
Take all current Cms:
1.) Remove thiere AoE Heal ability
2.) Spread the tree sothat 2 new one's are created. One for poison. One for desease. And a new one for state effects.
3.) Spread the crafting points to the different boxes (together with the schematics)
4.) Now call them something like "Bio Warriors".
Then creat a new Class Called "Combat Medics"
1.) Grant them revive
2.) Grant them AoE Heals
3.) Grant them state cures
4.) Grant them Poison and Desease Healing
5.) Give them certain bonuses to either Pistols or Carbines.
If I missunderstood one of your ideas please tell me so. Now my points were I see problems or wierd things:
a.) Bio warriors can still heal effectivly. Because thiere pre requisit ist Master Medic they can use the strongest stimms availible.
b.) You are changing the CM profession at only 2 points! They lose thiere abilitys to AoE heal... but you give them the ability to inflikt States (dizzy...)
c.) Where is the difference between your new CM's and Doctors? Area heals and extra carbine/pistol specials. But is that enough for the take off that it heals less and is dependant for its goods than/from a doctor?
Ok Now away from the problems. In german they have a saying: Why do we keep spliting hair? True doesn't make sense in the first minute. But all you are doing is renaming the Combat medics and making a weaker version of the Doctors. I fail to see any reason for such a projekt. You are neither changing the availibility of poisons nor the possibilitys to fight against it. With your proposed changes I see absolutley no change to the situation we have now. All I ask: Does this justify deveopment time that could be used for something else?
The only thing that will change with the nerf criers is the forum.
Hmm but you got one point: They wouldn't argue about our name anymore
Good points Ashlabon. I thank you for your post.
Your assessment is essentially correct. However, I think you miss the point.
I simply want to make what is currently a profession working as a bio-warrior into specifically a bio-warrior, and create the possibility for what the intent of the CM was supposed to be, which was a combat viable profession with medic attached.
Your strongest argument is that the prereq for CS stays the same with Master Medic, and thus they still have access to a large variety of heals...
However, they would cease to have Ranged or AoE heals...
However, their heals would be less effective than Doc heals... (correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the best heals over med use 50?)
However, they wouldn't be able to sure their own diseases and/or poisons, only lessens the effects of them (from others).
But I still think I have to give this argument some thought with regard to the proposal.
Be that as it may, it is true enough that Docs currently have a Cure Poison, Cure Disease, and Cure State Effects, but they do not have ranged nor AoE versions of these. Just like the current incarnation of CM, these Ranged and AoE medpaks would be less effective than receiving the individualized treatment from a Doc, but they would be immenantly helpful on the battlefield. They would perhaps be better (I should have more accurately described them thus) as Ranged and AoE reductions in the effects of the poison/disease/duration of effect, based on assembly and experimentation v. the assembly and experimentation (effectiveness) of the CS bio-agents, similar to that of how First Aid works against bleeding.
Essentially, I just want to have a CM prof that is a trooper, a soldier, a militiaman, a fighter, as well as a healer or a medic, while still having and allowing for a prof that is a bio-agent chemist and battlefield poisoner.
I understand one of the complaints CM's have is that they/you are mostly not medics. This would create that option, while still giving the option for a prof that exemplifies what you are now.
Asbalon wrote:
a.) Bio warriors can still heal effectivly. Because thiere pre requisit ist Master Medic they can use the strongest stimms availible.
They cant use the Doc avail Sm Stimpak E and F (unless those are Med Use 50, if so, I retract this, I don't have that info currently on hand)
b.) You are changing the CM profession at only 2 points! They lose thiere abilitys to AoE heal... but you give them the ability to inflikt States (dizzy...)
Yes and no. I am also revising the concept, and making them more aof a chemist than a medic. I've heard too many say that CM is overpowered, and I've heard CM's cry the same and that they have too many schematics. Frankly the prof does offer a LOT. I breaking this up a little bit.
c.) Where is the difference between your new CM's and Doctors? Area heals and extra carbine/pistol specials. But is that enough for the take off that it heals less and is dependant for its goods than/from a doctor?
Addressed above. Def v. Chem Agents, and the pistol/carb tree, as well as Ranged and AoE heals, more than the paltry few that is currently available(and if you'll note the end parenthetical, I also noted that it wouldn't be dependant on the Doc for goods).
Ok Now away from the problems. In german they have a saying: Why do we keep spliting hair? True doesn't make sense in the first minute. But all you are doing is renaming the Combat medics and making a weaker version of the Doctors. I fail to see any reason for such a projekt. You are neither changing the availibility of poisons nor the possibilitys to fight against it. With your proposed changes I see absolutley no change to the situation we have now. All I ask: Does this justify deveopment time that could be used for something else?
Weaker version of Doc that is more suited to the battlefield. Weaker in effective healing, but not in area or ragned healing.
I am changing the ability to fight against poisons by creating a counter to the same concepts of the poisons. Essentially the poison and the anti-poison are the same schematic(diff res) and the same item, only one causes dmg, the other negates that cause.
As far as changes in the current situation, I see this making more of an issue at having anti-chem-chuckers than just having CM's at every battlefield, and the CM (v2.0) would have more usefulness than just an anti-CS, including that of being a viable combat (non chemical) prof too, while the CS would also have usefulness by being a medic, keeping the CM's more busy, and inoculating against enemy CS's. Quite possibly, the CM concept could easily be included into Doctor too, but I think that might make a too powerful healer, if such a thing can be said. The difference is more in the playing of the role, than of the mechanics of the profession itself.
Also, as I said, some of the issues you are having now, as a profession (not with regard to therole of said profession) should be corrected within the revamp itself, as noted in the last bit parenthetical. Also, a simple resource alteration of schematics would make the res issue go away (which is what they did for Commando Weaps).
So, yes, I feel that it would be very good use of the devs time.
Hmm but you got one point: They wouldn't argue about our name anymore
I'll just write my replies to to yours (don't want to copy the samething twice
).Re: a.)
To be honest I'll have to try this out. But imagine what a D stimm can do when you allready have docs making +400 B stims. They are basicly instant heals that only buffed people might have to use twice (I healed myself yesterday with a bad made C stimm for over 1000 damage). Once I get home I'll try and see if I can make E stims with 50 med use.
Re: b.) The new CM' would still be just as effective when it come to offens as it is today. But about schematics: I never heard a CM complaining we have to many. I have heard though that people claimed we are only there to heal. We then usueally try to explain that the CM himself only has 8 schematics for healing (3 Area and 5 ranged) but about 60 for offesives ( 9 stats with each 3 poisons and 3 deseases, then the 3 sub components in normal and advanced versions). Sure its one very long list, but other crafting professions have just as many or more schematics than us.
Re: c.) Well you wouldn't suppose a CM was dependant from a Doc for goods. But if the CM want's to heal effectivly he has no choice that to go to a doc to get his subcomponents.
Re: in generall.
Weaker version of a Doc more suited for the battle field. So I am not suited for battle? Right now I am a Doc/Rifelman, and I dare say I can kick some behind. Just because someone is a Bookworm doc doesn't mean he cant go out there with a gun and fire while he's scraping some bodyparts to put you back together.
Doc's as they are, are meant to be in the middle of the battle. They have cures now for all states. From dizzy to stunned we can cure everything, even if you are burning to death. People like to think of us as Buff Bots that stay back and home and keep the fire nice and warm. Sure there will allways be those defenseless Doc's that stay out of troble, but there are just as many crwaling in the dirt next to you trying to stay out of sight to get you back on your feet during a raid.
What I really found interesting was this:
Quote from TonPhannan:
"The difference is more in the playing of the role, than of the mechanics of the profession itself."
Yepp and that is why I ask if it is really needed. I see your points, and understand now what you are trying to get at. I'm starting to see the picture you are trying to make but I still have my doubts that it is really needed to do something this dramatic.
The CM as it is now is a hybrid Profession. It has the traits of 2 different areas. While the CM can heal, he can also be just as deadly. I liked my time as a CM. Always talking about new cures I made up... they just usually had side effects (one of them turned my favorite wookie experiments into a Rainbow colored freak /roleplay)because I derived my cure from a corelian butterfly virus (the cure helped against hangovers... worked great.. except the colors *g*). I guess that is why I would not really want to see this prefession degraded to a pure poison slinger. *shrugs*
Oh well got a bit carried off there
I think you might be getting further away from what I'm talking about, bud.
a) Stims - Agreed. I think this is gonna be addressed in the HAM revamp though. Now that I've been looking out for it (largely due to your post) I'm seeing a lot of commentary on the problems with having so powerful a healing option at virtually everyone's disposal.
b) If you'll see my other thread on this topic (titled "CM nerf? is this somethign that can be lived with?"), you'll see at least one guy complain about having too many shcematics to manage, since the topic there was to make each disease/poison race specific (thus increasing your schems by 6x). More accurately, that there were too many offensive (not that he'd give any up) v. healing schems (that there weren't nearly enough).
c) I know the CM is dependant on the Doc for full effectiveness. One of the things I noted was that that should be changed in this proposal.
On battlefeild suitability: Yes, you wre a Doc / rifleman. I think the concpet of the CM by itself (as a hybrid profession) should be more suited to the battlefield. Docs are not meant to be in the middle of the battlefield in concept, that is what he CM is supposed to be. The CM should be the one crawling in the mud next to you, not the Doc, unless of coarse he also happens to be a Sniper. Don't mitigate the profession just because it has more skill points to use on another profession to augment it. This lessens the "c" argument above, since then all CM's should just also be Docs then (not really, but it follows the logic).
CM is a hybrid profession, but what do you really take from Ranged Support4 to the CM prof? There isn't a whole lot there that supports having that prereq (I have an issue with this in a lot of hybrids, actually, scout for BH, UA4 for Commando, Camping for SL, etc...). Point is, it doesn't make the prof better really in any way. It takes no traits from the Marksman profession; really it seems like only an XP/ skill point sink.
From what I am reading and seeing, it has already denegraded into mostly a pure poison/disease slinger (thus my references to chem-chucker). I want to divide it up into 2 profs that make it so that one can be the poison-slinger, an one can be the combat healer (within one profession, not just because there are enough skill points left over to master another).