Combat Medic Archive
Thread: CMs, please fight for us.
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daymeeuhn
Wed Feb 25, 2004 2:21 am
#1
As a former Combat Medic myself, I can honestly say I know how amazing these new poisons are. Had I the spider venom to craft with at the time I would have surely been like a child in a candy store using these in my crafting.
However, now is a time when we must be given more defenses against them.
I am a Pikeman. My entire build is set within Combat Classes, and I use them all in my fighting. I have TKA for meditating, Pikeman for offense, and some other classes for State defenses, since Pikeman offers none and I need the missing defenses. When I fight Riflemen, Commandos, TKAs, Pistoleers, etc, our fight is determined by many things: Defense rolls, armor, damage outputs, weapons, specials, states, etc. All forms of combat we all use.
However... when I encounter a Combat Medic, it is an entirely different story.
Unlike normal professions, I have -zero- defense against what they do to me. When they throw a poison, it -will- hit, thanks to 150% potency. All the poison food and all the SEAs in the world cant stop 150% potency. It hits, and now with this new Spider Venom, I die in seconds. All they have to do is heal themselves of the damage I do and wait until they can finish me off with the final shot, or, now wait on a 600 Tick Disease to go off. These new poisons are -insane- to say the least.
HOWEVER, I DO not wish to see Combat Medic Nerfed. It was not your intention to see these new Spider Venoms, you did not ask for them, I did not see any posts whining for stronger Infect Amps. It was purely a decision by the Devs, and it boggles my mind but it was made nonetheless.
No... not a nerf, but what I WOULD like to see is New ways to combat against the Combat Medic.
Now, All you Combat Medics can sit there and say your damage doesnt need a nerf all youd like, but you MUST think about other classes than yourselves in PvP and admit that if you truly think your damage isnt what needs changing, the application and thesimplicity of killing us should.
The output of damage isnt what bothers me so much. We could argue all day long that your DPS isnt that high, and it would be a debated argument, but what I care more about right now is the simple fact that unless I have a Doctor nearby babysitting me, or if I am a Doctor myself, I have absolutely no defense against your offense. You are the only combat profession to have others directly relate on another class. Any other combat profession can fight another 1v1 and not rely on another class nearby.
IDEAS:
The Rebreather. When I heard this negated Poisons/Diseases, I thought "Thank God." It made sense. I sacrificed a helm, one of the most vital pieces of armor, to wear this. It made me immune to the CM effects but easily killable by any Rifleman.
Would a CM complain? Maybe... but why should they? Now rather than being completely volun, I would be completely immune, and now like I had to rely on another class to beat them, they would have to rely on another class to beat me. This seems reasonable.
Fix Meditate to help us. You know what happens right now when we meditate? We have to go through the DoTs in the order given to us, which is Bleeds>Poison>disease. Now, obviously, we'd want to fight off the uber Disease first, since thats whats killing us. BUT we cant. We have to fight the Bleeds and or Poisons off first, and by then, we're dead.
IDEAS for fixing this could be -
- Allow for us to decide what we meditate off first, such as changing it to Disease>poison>bleed.
- Allow it so when we are meditating, the current DoT we are focusing on does not tick. Thus, if we were poisoned/diseased, and meditating off the disease, only the poison would be currently ticking on us. Considering we are out of combat, and meditating, I dont think having some sort of way to remove the effects of these without having it beat the hell out of us is so unrealistic.
Make Poison Food even stronger.
Whats 40% good for against 150%? Why should potency be able to exceed 100% in the first place?
Incorporate some sort of Hard Cap, like Commando DOT.
Only In PvP, of course.
All I know is, I like this game, to an extent. Me and all my friends are active players on the Starsider community and very well known to almost everyone. But unfortunately ALOT of us are considering quitting, because seriously guys... right now it is not fun playing this game with the way things work now. They fixed Charge Shot, theyre nerfing Warcry, theyre nerfing Uber Defenses, the only thing left in PvP no one can agree with is the overwhelming feeling you get when a CM poisons you and you arent a Doctor.
For anyone who hasnt PvPed alot as another class, I just want you guys to know... it really does suck.
I know how much fun being a CM can be, but when someone would message me with "Yeah nice job **edit**, you killed us all but youre a CM and it takes no skill" Id actually listen and I agreed with them. I didnt sit there and tell them they were wrong, or that I hated them for making me feel weak, I said "You know what? Hes right. That was too easy." So I said screw it, dropped CM and went Pikeman. 
So Like I said, I dont want to see CM nerfed. I just want to see more ways to defend against them.
And if you guys helped us out, and made it more of a fair playing ground, the chance of a solid nerf hitting you probably wouldnt be as hard, and probably wouldnt be as soon. But only you can make that decision, because if you guys say "Hey look Devs, give them _____ to help them out." then the Devs would actually probably listen.
Im trying to be civil about this, just help me out.
Message Edited by daymeeuhn on 02-25-2004 05:27 AM
Asbalon
Wed Feb 25, 2004 3:21 am
#2
Hmmm Ok:
1.) What your proposing is the old Gas mask question. Personaly I have nothing against it. Like you said: You would be imune to poisons but be vulnerable to things like Headshot. Ok Point taken. But I would propse 1 change. They only work against Area poisons/desaeses.
Now this is only a proposal and I would like to hear different scenarios about it. The main reason I propose it is so that even if the enemy has gas masks the CM can filter statigic important enemey out (like those hard to hit templates... or the other guys CM.. or those guy who don't wear any armor anyways). That way a CM would allways have a role in battle (beeing it the role of a mass killer for those without gas masks or as the role of a singel target assasin)... and it would stop the problems docs have that 10+ people get poisoned at the same time.
Well I don't know. Would be nice for input about situations this would be "to much"/"not effective".
2.) Hmm never been TKA so I can't say how the Meditate line works. Only thing that I would be against is the instant state heal for every (or any) profession. Even if its only once in an hour.
If a rearanging of the Meditation prioritys would help... I'd be all for it. But I think thats somehting for a different correspondent and forum
3.) I have yet to see how strong poison resist foods (almost typed food resist poisons there) can get in the end effect. RIght now i know of 24% Foods. Sorry to say I can't recall if they were Bio engineer enhanced or not. It would be interesting though as to who high this resist can go. A maximum of 40% sounds right (but I am only saying this because if I remember right you can not stack this food). In combonation with gas masks that would be quite interesting and remember... if we have 150 potecy that also means we have pretty low damage poisons. But again I need help with thoughts about different scenarios where it could be abused (in one or the other way)
4.) From what I have been hearing there is (now?.. don't know if its new) such a hard cap in game. If someone has 800 health, then get buffed to 3000 health, he will only get a maximum of 799 health wounds. After 799 wounds have been taken the damage just stops. Now I am not sure about this... never threw a desease at a buffed person. I can understand a hardcap against deseases... but not against poisons =) Or did you mean a hard cap on maximum damage per tick?
1.) What your proposing is the old Gas mask question. Personaly I have nothing against it. Like you said: You would be imune to poisons but be vulnerable to things like Headshot. Ok Point taken. But I would propse 1 change. They only work against Area poisons/desaeses.
Now this is only a proposal and I would like to hear different scenarios about it. The main reason I propose it is so that even if the enemy has gas masks the CM can filter statigic important enemey out (like those hard to hit templates... or the other guys CM.. or those guy who don't wear any armor anyways). That way a CM would allways have a role in battle (beeing it the role of a mass killer for those without gas masks or as the role of a singel target assasin)... and it would stop the problems docs have that 10+ people get poisoned at the same time.
Well I don't know. Would be nice for input about situations this would be "to much"/"not effective".
2.) Hmm never been TKA so I can't say how the Meditate line works. Only thing that I would be against is the instant state heal for every (or any) profession. Even if its only once in an hour.
If a rearanging of the Meditation prioritys would help... I'd be all for it. But I think thats somehting for a different correspondent and forum
3.) I have yet to see how strong poison resist foods (almost typed food resist poisons there
) can get in the end effect. RIght now i know of 24% Foods. Sorry to say I can't recall if they were Bio engineer enhanced or not. It would be interesting though as to who high this resist can go. A maximum of 40% sounds right (but I am only saying this because if I remember right you can not stack this food). In combonation with gas masks that would be quite interesting and remember... if we have 150 potecy that also means we have pretty low damage poisons. But again I need help with thoughts about different scenarios where it could be abused (in one or the other way)
4.) From what I have been hearing there is (now?.. don't know if its new) such a hard cap in game. If someone has 800 health, then get buffed to 3000 health, he will only get a maximum of 799 health wounds. After 799 wounds have been taken the damage just stops. Now I am not sure about this... never threw a desease at a buffed person. I can understand a hardcap against deseases... but not against poisons =) Or did you mean a hard cap on maximum damage per tick?
daymeeuhn
Wed Feb 25, 2004 3:25 am
#3
Asbalon wrote:
Hmmm Ok:1.) What your proposing is the old Gas mask question. Personaly I have nothing against it. Like you said: You would be imune to poisons but be vulnerable to things like Headshot. Ok Point taken. But I would propse 1 change. They only work against Area poisons/desaeses.Now this is only a proposal and I would like to hear different scenarios about it. The main reason I propose it is so that even if the enemy has gas masks the CM can filter statigic important enemey out (like those hard to hit templates... or the other guys CM.. or those guy who don't wear any armor anyways). That way a CM would allways have a role in battle (beeing it the role of a mass killer for those without gas masks or as the role of a singel target assasin)... and it would stop the problems docs have that 10+ people get poisoned at the same time.Well I don't know. Would be nice for input about situations this would be "to much"/"not effective".2.) Hmm never been TKA so I can't say how the Meditate line works. Only thing that I would be against is the instant state heal for every (or any) profession. Even if its only once in an hour. If a rearanging of the Meditation prioritys would help... I'd be all for it. But I think thats somehting for a different correspondent and forum
Ok, to 1) that would just encourage more Single tossing, and it would still lead me to being screwed. Heh.
2) Yeah I agree already the once an hour heal thing was a stupid idea. -lol- I was just throwing things out.
3) 150% potency does NOT mean low Eff. Any combat medic with +12 to Experimentation (which is alot nowadays) can craft poisons and cap out the Effectiveness and still have a few points for Potency. Now with the Advanced Disp Mechs it gets silly. 40% is not high enough with the current potencies.
Asbalon
Wed Feb 25, 2004 4:06 am
#4
re: to 3.) Hmm Ok. I can only speak for the thing I am making. I won't go sofar to say its the best Gorath has to offer, but I am preety high up there. Most I got was 140 potency with about 6 experimentation points... when I'm home I'll try and see how high I can get my potency. =)
Asbalon
Wed Feb 25, 2004 4:09 am
#5
Oh.. sorry I can't edit yet.:
Just wanted to say sorry about the no paragraphs thing in my first post there... when I previewed it everthing looked fine... just noticed that something screwed up the format
Just wanted to say sorry about the no paragraphs thing in my first post there... when I previewed it everthing looked fine... just noticed that something screwed up the format
gpunk
Wed Feb 25, 2004 5:27 am
#6
Ya know how I feel about you and CM stuff Naecabon. I'm going to give you a 5 star, however, because this can be a very constructive thread.
I never have and never will have a problem with people being able to defend against poisons / disease. It is only fair. Damage is not out of line (maybe with some of these uber drops, but normal poison).
Gas masks would be fine, and encourage teamworm, new group dynamic. I do not like the idea of NEVER being able to land a hit however. There should always be a minimal chance to land. The devs agree with the idea of having some chance, as shown by capping defense templates.
Food. It should be more potent, assuming no other signifigant +resists go into the game.
Perhaps give squad leaders a 'chant' that adds some sort of resist.
Doctors could get some sort of innoculation to add resist. Possibly immunity if based on a timer, etc.
A re-apply timer. A certain amount of time before poison /disease can be reapplied.
A PBAOE cure. This should go to CMs though. AOE is our specialty, Plus, if a CM is curing poison, he can't be throwing poison.
The strength of all the possibilities needs to be weighed vs. Total chance to be succesful, though. IE, what I said about a certain chance to succeed. All the possibilities could go in if one of them on their own was weak. Or just 1 or 2 of them could go in if it were strong and nothing else was going to be added.
Of course,
This would also have to apply to DOT giving weapons. Like pikes. That do mind DOTs. 
Oh, and since the drops and strength of the of the upcoming poisons are so brutal, and un-balancing, I assume REIGN won't be using them in PvP or any upcoming guildwars? Regardless of when they were gathered? 
Message Edited by gpunk on 02-25-2004 04:30 AM
ElPedroSG
Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:27 am
#7
lol the 2 sides of this discussion.
Maybe it would be balancing if combat meds had a 6 month period of zero chance to hit 
I read a lot of CM saying don't PvP without a doc or 10 so maybe a rebreather which stops any poison/disease would mean each combat med is required to travel around with pocket rifleman, what's good for the goose...
This is all, of course, the fault of the way the game is programmed though thankfully the new loots mean that an already overpowered (at least to me, no other combat profession forces your adverseries to take up 1 skill or have another profession with you) profession may even get a 'quick' balance.
In all seriousness there needs to be a chance to defend against all poisons/diseases regardless of what is used to inflict them and also a way of curing it without having a 4000 Doc with you (same as novice med can heal ALL other damage).
If the Devs can implement a way to be able to heal mind damage done to you without healing what you use with attacks/heals etc (same as is being with H and A) and give it to Novice Meds then coupled with having a chance to resist etc and a poison/disease resist layer in Composit (along withmaking Stun resists the same as all other weapon types)all professions will be balanced in thoseregards.
Professions can then be differentiated by having say good state attacks so a lower than middle DPS or good AoE so lower than middle DPS on single targets and vice versa.
NeoEcks
Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:36 am
#8
gpunk wrote:
Ya know how I feel about you and CM stuff Naecabon. I'm going to give you a 5 star, however, because this can be a very constructive thread.
I never have and never will have a problem with people being able to defend against poisons / disease. It is only fair. Damage is not out of line (maybe with some of these uber drops, but normal poison).
i agree with this 100%. i have thought from the time i started reading the boards and nerf-crys that players would be more accepting of the combat medic class if they had more options of defending against poisons and diseases. i have been pushing the idea of fixing other classes rather nerfing the classes that work well. adding resist items that can genuinely work (with some trade-offs of couse as is par for the course with this game) would help the overall game.
Gas masks would be fine, and encourage teamworm, new group dynamic. I do not like the idea of NEVER being able to land a hit however. There should always be a minimal chance to land. The devs agree with the idea of having some chance, as shown by capping defense templates.
i like the rebreather / gas mask idea quite a bit. giving up one type of protection for another had been a decision players have had to make (up until the uber-night sister/layered-advanced-krayt/rancor-sliced composite suites started to appear) from the launch of the game. giving up head protection for immunity to AoE effect poisons and diseases falls right in line with other choises players should have to make when it comes time to enter into battle. i also agree that even when wearing a gas mask / rebreather type item, there should be SOME chance that a single, consentrated blast of powerful poison or disease may still work (perhaps with reduced effect?)
Food. It should be more potent, assuming no other signifigant +resists go into the game.
i agree that food should be more potent but not so much based on other resists. if a player is filling up their stomach with poison / disease resist food and drink AND wearing a rebreather-gas mask item, then they are NOT wearing a helm and eating / drinking mind foods and drinks or food and drink like Breath of Heaven that boost health and action stats. a fare trade in my eyes
Perhaps give squad leaders a 'chant' that adds some sort of resist.
i like this concept (though not the name LOL)for a number of reasons. as it stands i think that i have seen two master squad leaders that CHOSE to be squad leaders in the 6+ months i have been playing the game. it gives an AoE that is defensive and not offencive. it would be range based so players would have to be within X amount of meters of the Squad Leader for it to work (the trade off)
Doctors could get some sort of innoculation to add resist. Possibly immunity if based on a timer, etc.
i have said this on more than one occation. the timer would be the trade off as you have pointed out here.
A re-apply timer. A certain amount of time before poison /disease can be reapplied.
/agree this would make many other players feel better about fighting a group with combat medics in it.
A PBAOE cure. This should go to CMs though. AOE is our specialty, Plus, if a CM is curing poison, he can't be throwing poison.
many of us have been calling for this as an addition to the class for quite some time. i have said many-a-time in the past 'who better to combat against poisons and diseases than those who make them?' AoE poison and disease curse are a MUST to keep the balance. as stated a CM cannot be lobbing poisons and diseases if he or she is lobbing cures. both draw from the mind pool the more cures you throw, the fewer poisons and disease you can throw
The strength of all the possibilities needs to be weighed vs. Total chance to be succesful, though. IE, what I said about a certain chance to succeed. All the possibilities could go in if one of them on their own was weak. Or just 1 or 2 of them could go in if it were strong and nothing else was going to be added.
Of course,
This would also have to apply to DOT giving weapons. Like pikes. That do mind DOTs.
Oh, and since the drops and strength of the of the upcoming poisons are so brutal, and un-balancing, I assume REIGN won't be using them in PvP or any upcoming guildwars? Regardless of when they were gathered?
Message Edited by gpunk on 02-25-2004 04:30 AM
if i had the time, i would love to go back through ALL of the 7,847,283,473,847 nerf cry posts and pick out the best ideas from the defending combat medics as to how to make fixes to the class and fixes to the game to bring overall game play up to a level that everyone would enjoy, not DOWN to a level that every noob with a CDEF pistol can survive.
this post has a lot of potential to generate and create some greatnew items, strategies and game play ideas. i hope we can keep it positive and troll free.
Bamboozle
Wed Feb 25, 2004 8:40 am
#9
You don't want to see CM nerfed but you want to be able to make yourself immune to their weapons? How is that not a nerf?
Ekefo
Wed Feb 25, 2004 9:52 am
#10
Re-Breather/Gasmask
I agree that this is a good idea. However, I also agree that it should be for area only. But my idea is that if it is and area attack, the target should still be effected and everyone else is immune. I envision these not as gas persay, but darts. You get hit with the dart on a single attack and with the area attacks it is a dart with and exploding gas vile of some kind. I know that might now be how it is supposed to work, but that helps justify my idea of the target being effects. (now just thinking outloud, this changes the idea of hitting to a to hit systen instead of an effectiveness issue to maybe this won't work).
Area Cures
I think this would help a lot. I also agree that the CM should have it. If we have to get the cure from a doc and load it into a schematic of our own then fine, but we should have the schematic and the ability.
Foods etc
I agree with the idea that we should not be more effective then any resist. In better words, if the best food resist is 40%, then it should our effectiveness should not be better than 130%. At least give them a reason to eat the food. Otherwise it is worthless. Even with a trade off in power it does not seem right that we can hit no matter what they eat. However, I also beleive that at Master we should be able to over come some of the resistence so better that 100% is a must.
Just some of my thoughts. Thanks for reading and great starting post for once (not you personally, just in general).
Romiezeus
Wed Feb 25, 2004 10:38 am
#11
Although very well intentioned and more to the point unbelievably well written, this is going to become the biggest CM flame post ever. I am a CM and know there are plenty of people who don't like the disease/poison combo that we can dish out. However, if you were going to have an offensive/defensive breakdown of CM on a scale of 10 it would be 10/0. The thing that people fail to realize is that we are extraordinarily easy to kill with melee. Until that is accepted by people, this whole topic will continue to go straight to flames.
I want you to know that I understand what you are saying and that I wish these forums had a feasability monitor for trolls. Then we could have a very good discussion without being distracted.
daymeeuhn
Wed Feb 25, 2004 10:57 am
#12
Romiezeus wrote:
Although very well intentioned and more to the point unbelievably well written, this is going to become the biggest CM flame post ever. I am a CM and know there are plenty of people who don't like the disease/poison combo that we can dish out. However, if you were going to have an offensive/defensive breakdown of CM on a scale of 10 it would be 10/0. The thing that people fail to realize is that we are extraordinarily easy to kill with melee. Until that is accepted by people, this whole topic will continue to go straight to flames.
I want you to know that I understand what you are saying and that I wish these forums had a feasability monitor for trolls. Then we could have a very good discussion without being distracted.
If you die to Melee so easily, then youre doin somethin wrong -lol-
As I said, Im a Melee fighter, and Im one of the best, and I tend to lose to a CM almost every time.
XingYuen
Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:07 am
#13
With CM and pistols 1, I can kill any melee fighter and most any ranged fighter minus a decent rifleman.
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