Combat Medic Archive
Thread: Fixing crafting
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jfang
Wed Jun 09, 2004 9:30 am
#1
Currently, crafting is somewhat broken. From a technical aspect, it works properly. However functionally, it is somewhat silly, as 90% or more of the poisons only have one thing, effectiveness, experimented.
In my personal opinion, crafting should be a balancing process where you can customize your poisons or stims to taste. However, currently, there is a dominant experimenting line. Basically, if your potency is high enough (which it is automatically if you are using advanced components), and your combat medic use is low enough (which it always is as a master combat medic), effectiveness is clearly the most important stat to experiment the vast majority of the time.
This problem is shared by most crafting professions, like weaponsmith (damage-speed), armorsmith (effectiveness), and architects (base extraction rate). For many, such as WS and AS, it will hopefully be fixed with the HAM changes with the combat rebalance. However, as this will not help combat medic crafting, I think it bears special attention.
The source of this problem is fairly complex.
1) The gap between normal and advanced components is too large. For example, a resilience compound might have 20 potency, while an advanced resilience compound might have 70. When you consider the final combine might end up with a potency of 130, the 50 points of difference is very large.
2) poisons are weapons. As such, there are two important aspects to a weapon, how hard it is to use (potency/range/HAM costs/etc), and how much it hurts the enemy to have it used against him or her (DPS/targeted or untargeted damage/etc.). There should be a trade-off between reducing the former, and increasing the latter.
1) The gap between normal and advanced components is too large. For example, a resilience compound might have 20 potency, while an advanced resilience compound might have 70. When you consider the final combine might end up with a potency of 130, the 50 points of difference is very large.
2) poisons are weapons. As such, there are two important aspects to a weapon, how hard it is to use (potency/range/HAM costs/etc), and how much it hurts the enemy to have it used against him or her (DPS/targeted or untargeted damage/etc.). There should be a trade-off between reducing the former, and increasing the latter.
As a result of #1, the balancing of poison crafting is thrown off. The devs need to hit a window where a non-advanced poisons are strong enough to be useful, but the advanced ones are not overpowered (the former being more important than the latter). Trying to hit this window with such a divergence in strength of components is neigh impossible, which is why a base poison C made with advanced components might have an exceptionally high potency of 120 or 130.
This in turn affects #2. Because of the attempts to balance number #1, advanced poisons have some very strange numbers. A base range of 31m, which is almost at the theoretical max limit of 33 (65m). A potency of 120, which is more than enough for almost all opponents. As such, how hard it is to use the poison is basically held constant, so the only way to improve it is to increase the damage (which everybody does)
I have outlined a few ideas to fix this problem below in replies. However, the first basic idea to help improve experimentation (which is equally applicable to all my following suggestions) would be to reduce the divergence between advanced and non-advanced components. The best way to do this would be to reduce the strength of advanced components (as the final numbers are already "too large an impact for to small a number", such as static 100 potency checkpoint). If appropriate, the devs should tweak the base stats of poisons to compensate for the reduction of advanced component strength, so this isn't just a blanket nerf.
jfang
Wed Jun 09, 2004 9:31 am
#2
Make experimentation dynamic:
Make it so experimentation does not have constant returns to scale. For example, the first point of experimentation might increase effectiveness by 40 points, but the 10th point increases it only by 3. This would be similar to how novice professions and SP works. The first skill box is very cheap to get, where as the 4th skill box is much more expensive to get for a similar effect.
So, in theory, the first experimentation point would best be spent getting 50 effectiveness point. But when you get to experimentation point 6, 3 uses might be more valuable than 10 more effectiveness points, so you spend a few points there. Ultimately, the final balance you end up with is very dependent on your own personal preferences.
This also could easily result in an accidental nerf or enhancement to poisons (off hand, I would guess enhancement), so tweaking/reducing the base stats would likely be necessary. Getting the balance right might be a little tricky, but this system has the advantage that even if the devs are a little off, because there are diminishing return to scale, the crafter can easily compensate for potency being 10 lower than it “should”, or changes being 5 higher than it “should”.
(Note, of my three ideas, I think I like this one the best.)
jfang
Wed Jun 09, 2004 9:32 am
#3
Add new poison parameters:
If the devs gave combat medics new alternate ways to deal damage to the enemy or alternative ways to reduce cost, effectiveness would no longer be the end all and be all. Some specific way to do this might be:
1) experimenting to reduce throw time
2) experimenting to reduce time for the first tick
3) experimenting to increase tick speed
4) experimenting to allow poisons/diseases to give states (probably a very small percent chance, experiment-able to become only a small chance)
5) experimenting HAM costs for poisons
If the devs gave combat medics new alternate ways to deal damage to the enemy or alternative ways to reduce cost, effectiveness would no longer be the end all and be all. Some specific way to do this might be:
1) experimenting to reduce throw time
2) experimenting to reduce time for the first tick
3) experimenting to increase tick speed
4) experimenting to allow poisons/diseases to give states (probably a very small percent chance, experiment-able to become only a small chance)
5) experimenting HAM costs for poisons
These would need to be on a separate experimentation line than effectiveness. This has the benefit of allowing combat medics to tweak more variables and give us some thing things to play with. However, the it also has the downsides of being very hard to implement (I would guess), and having a profound effect on the way poisons work, which in turn dramatically increases the chance of unforeseen side effects.
csretailnoob
Wed Jun 09, 2004 10:12 am
#4
/1) experimenting to reduce throw time
2) experimenting to reduce time for the first tick
3) experimenting to increase tick speed
2) experimenting to reduce time for the first tick
3) experimenting to increase tick speed
THAT WOULD OWN!!!
/bmoc
jkray8472
Wed Jun 09, 2004 11:13 am
#5
Lol, silly troll, get back under your bridge and wait for the Billy Goats!
Happymob
Wed Jun 09, 2004 11:20 am
#6
I agree with you in principle. Combat medics used to have to make range, power, and potency decisions. Fixing all of our subcomponents reduced us to range and power decisions. Capping poisons to 64m (which I am assuming they will get around to eventually)will removeall of our decisions. You correctly point out that basically every crafting profession is in the same boat. I am all for the devs increasing the variety of crafting. The simplest way to do that is to give us meaningful choices. You outline some of them. I would love to see range continue to be a choice *and* have meaningful range experimentation added to weapons crafting. Why not have a rifle that shoots at 80m (as long as it is lower damage, lower accuracy, and higher HAM costs)?
A classic example of where they failed is with doctor buffs. There are essentially two useful properties - duration and power. Yet they placed both on the same experimentation line, so there is no choice to be made.
The notable exception to the one line craftingis chef - all 4 lines are reasonably useful and in different circumstances, high charge, high power, high duration, and low filling varieties of the same item may be warranted. The majority of chef crafting is power related, but there is a market for the specialty goods. Since this was the most recent crafting revamp, I am reasonably hopeful that the devs now "get it", instead of just lucking into it with chefs. The only question is, will crafting for other professions ever get any sort of revamp? I'd argue that it isn't as essential as other changes (get the combat rebalance done already!), but it would make the game a richer experience. Give me back my range/power/potency trade-offs.
jfang
Wed Jun 09, 2004 11:37 am
#7
jkray8472 wrote:
Lol, silly troll, get back under your bridge and wait for the Billy Goats!
Was that referringto me or csretailnoob?
If me, I'm curious as to what I said that makes me a troll (expect the exceptional length of my posting)... I thought my post was well thought out, had some meaningful ideas, and at least a few plausibleideas (with both some positive and negative aspects specified to each). Of course since I wrote it, I'm not exactly impartial... 
(I hope this doesn't degenerate into a flame war... )
)Edit:
Oh, and Happymob,the weaponsmiths have a similar problem as the doctors you listed. They have two very valuable stats: speed and damage. Unfortunately, they are on the same line...
On the up side though, the other crafting class which is doing well is the droid engineers. The majority of the chassis have their uses and purposes and swapping out modules does force meaningful trade-offs, especially since the (two) revamps. I hope this is a good sign for things to come. 
Message Edited by jfang on 06-09-2004 02:42 PM
csretailnoob
Thu Jun 10, 2004 2:04 am
#8
speak for yourself?
'J' here is trying to make positive change/discussion in the forum and all you can say is......
NICE DUDE, GJ!!!!!!
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