Combat Medic Archive
Thread: 4 simple things to improve PVP..
What of us PvE players? What of the mind fire weapons, do they endure the same reduction?
Master Rifleman/MCM - has defences
Master Carbineer/MCM - has defences
Master Pistoleer/MCM - has defences
Removing the 29 pt for the ranged line & marksman allows for
TKM/MCM
Master Fencer/MCM
Master Swords/MCM
Master Pike/MCM
In essence you have created a templete superior to the Elite melee + Doc one. Even with your proposed 1/4 reduction in the poisons and disease the removal of the extra SP has not address the problem of balancing a CM.
Message Edited by Morath360 on 07-06-2004 07:46 AM
RedAnubis wrote:
As you state your concept is for PvP.
What of us PvE players? What of the mind fire weapons, do they endure the same reduction?
Master Rifleman/MCM - has defences
Master Carbineer/MCM - has defences
Master Pistoleer/MCM - has defences
A few points:
1. all other professions suffer 75% damage reduction in pvp, I suspcet this is what the original poster means, and I'd have to agree, CM's should be bound by the same rules as every other class. This would make PvE identical to how it is now, and just change the dynamics of PvP.
2. Combat Medic is a support class, not a combat class. A pure CM should not be able to achieve the damage output per second of a rifleman, or pistoleer, or swordsman or any of the combat professions. These other classes are pure combat. CM's are not, CM's get other benefits, such as the ability to heal an entire team at the same time, and to heal mind pool on other players.
3. Yes, I agree, in PvP, all damage dealing abilities, DoT weapons included, should be subject to the 75% damage reduction. The fact that they aren't unbalances PvP immensely. Similarly, a reduciton in Doc buffs would be nice - another significant problem in PvP is the inability of people to actually damage each other. Uber armor and buffs is one of the reasons CM's are so effective with their unhindered damage output.
Geno.
SolSpur wrote:Ranged support is what seperates us from doctors.....
DPS is the only way to compare the combat classes and yes we are a combat oriented class. We are a hybrid class, part healer, part combat, completely group oriented. We increase the effectivness of our group and lessen the effectivness of yours.
Ranged support and the ability to deal damage with your skills separates you from doctors.
And yes, you're right, DPS is the only meaningfull way to evaluate different combat professions. However, you're not a pure combat profesison, and should therefore expect to do less damage than a pure combat profession.
Geno.
Xlot wrote:
RedAnubis wrote:
As you state your concept is for PvP.
What of us PvE players? What of the mind fire weapons, do they endure the same reduction?
Master Rifleman/MCM - has defences
Master Carbineer/MCM - has defences
Master Pistoleer/MCM - has defences
A few points:
1. all other professions suffer 75% damage reduction in pvp, I suspcet this is what the original poster means, and I'd have to agree, CM's should be bound by the same rules as every other class. This would make PvE identical to how it is now, and just change the dynamics of PvP.
CMs are bound by the same rules as every other class. However, the nature of poisons and diseases as a damage type is not consistant with other weapons. Riflemen, for example, have the 75% reduction...but have a significantly higher DPS. Riflemen can also target the mind, and use the lethal Jawa Ion Rifle. And Riflemen deal INSTANT damage. In order for a disease to tick, a CM must use it, and then wait 40 seconds before it makes its first tick. A poison takes 10 seconds (which seems shorter due to lag etc), but is still enough time for you to heal yourself if you're a doctor, or to find a doctor to heal you if your group is well organized.
The dynamics of PvP are PURELY based on stun damage, and mind damage right now. That is why CMs are hated...b/c they can target the mind, and bypass the "uber" armor (which will be "nerfed" in the Combat Rebalance).
2. Combat Medic is a support class, not a combat class. A pure CM should not be able to achieve the damage output per second of a rifleman, or pistoleer, or swordsman or any of the combat professions. These other classes are pure combat. CM's are not, CM's get other benefits, such as the ability to heal an entire team at the same time, and to heal mind pool on other players.
Read the above post as far as "damage" goes. However, the "ability to heal an entire team at the same time" means nothing in PvP. When was the last time you saw your group go down due to losing health or action? It's all mind. And healing mind in PvP is akin to committing suicide for a CM. It gives you ~40 mind, focus, and willpower wounds, and about 40 BF each time. Unless it's a Jedi, or I know the battle's almost over, I don't do it. Fact is, we DON'T have other benefits really. Poisons and diseases are our sole contribution to PvP. We're there to keep the defense-stacking, food-eating, buffed, super-armored melee tanks in line. We're the sole profession that can keep those people from soloing anyone in PvP. We encourage variety in the groups by needing more doctors to counteract CMs.
3. Yes, I agree, in PvP, all damage dealing abilities, DoT weapons included, should be subject to the 75% damage reduction. The fact that they aren't unbalances PvP immensely. Similarly, a reduciton in Doc buffs would be nice - another significant problem in PvP is the inability of people to actually damage each other. Uber armor and buffs is one of the reasons CM's are so effective with their unhindered damage output.
The significant problems of PvP can be summed up here: Mind Pool. With huge health/action buffs and being unable to heal, the mind pool is the most vulnerable spot. With 80-90% composite armor...players can't dent each other. The Devs have realized this, and thus the COMBAT REBALANCE was created. However, for reasons that seem ludicrous to many of us, the Devs put off this vital rebalance, and so we have to put up with more ignorance on this forum.
Geno.
Why reduce the duration? If the damage is reduced, the duration becomes far less of an issue.
Morath360 wrote:
They could cut all poisons and diseases to 1/4 of what they are now and make them last no more than a minute without reapplication.
jkray8472 wrote:
Xlot wrote:
RedAnubis wrote:
As you state your concept is for PvP.
What of us PvE players? What of the mind fire weapons, do they endure the same reduction?
Master Rifleman/MCM - has defences
Master Carbineer/MCM - has defences
Master Pistoleer/MCM - has defences
Read the above post as far as "damage" goes.
The significant problems of PvP can be summed up here: Mind Pool. With huge health/action buffs and being unable to heal, the mind pool is the most vulnerable spot. With 80-90% composite armor...players can't dent each other. The Devs have realized this, and thus the COMBAT REBALANCE was created. However, for reasons that seem ludicrous to many of us, the Devs put off this vital rebalance, and so we have to put up with more ignorance on this forum.
Geno.
First, as was stated in another thread.. CM does more DPS than any other profession by far. Again, the fallacy is you are using only a straight up fight for your DPS calcs. In reality the CM over the course of 5 minutes out damages anyone else by far. You dont need to be in line of site in fact you dont even need to be alive. The damage just keeps rollin. So yes if you are only going to look at 10 seconds, but no fight ever goes like that now does it..
Mind pool is not the problem, it is the power and length of our poisons. The mind pool just exposes the worst part of it.
Message Edited by Morath360 on 07-06-2004 08:30 AM
Morath360 wrote:
First, as was stated in another thread.. CM does more DPS than any other profession by far. Again, the fallacy is you are using only a straight up fight for your DPS calcs. In reality the CM over the course of 5 minutes out damages anyone else by far. You dont need to be in line of site in fact you dont even need to be alive. The damage just keeps rollin. So yes if you are only going to look at 10 seconds, but no fight ever goes like that now does it..
Mind pool is not the problem, it is the power and length of our poisons. The mind pool just exposes the worst part of it.
You're right I suppose. A CM whose poison ticks for 5 minutes will do more damage than a rifleman who only shoots for 30 seconds. Your entire supposition is based on a wrong assumption. The only time I have had a poison or disease tick for more than 5 minutes was against a Krayt Dragon, when we had a weak group. Even then, the riflemen in the group far outdamaged my poison and disease.
DPS does not change over time. DPS remains constant...which is why it is used as a comparison for the various damage types. The duration of poisons and diseases is mostly irrelevant. You won't see a PvP encounter where one person has a poison and disease and runs around with them ticking for 5 minutes. The only way it'll happen is if it hits his Health or Action pool, and he can stim himself fast enough to stay alive.
This brings me back to it being entirely a factor of the mind pool. Do you not see that ALL of the popular PvP combat professions hit the mind? Once mind becomes a healable pool, many of these problems will go away.
If you area CM, try tossing Area Health Poisons and see how many people laugh at you. See how many of htem go under and die. It's ALL MIND.
jkray8472 wrote:
Morath360 wrote:
First, as was stated in another thread.. CM does more DPS than any other profession by far. Again, the fallacy is you are using only a straight up fight for your DPS calcs. In reality the CM over the course of 5 minutes out damages anyone else by far. You dont need to be in line of site in fact you dont even need to be alive. The damage just keeps rollin. So yes if you are only going to look at 10 seconds, but no fight ever goes like that now does it..
Mind pool is not the problem, it is the power and length of our poisons. The mind pool just exposes the worst part of it.
You're right I suppose. A CM whose poison ticks for 5 minutes will do more damage than a rifleman who only shoots for 30 seconds. Your entire supposition is based on a wrong assumption. The only time I have had a poison or disease tick for more than 5 minutes was against a Krayt Dragon, when we had a weak group. Even then, the riflemen in the group far outdamaged my poison and disease.
DPS does not change over time. DPS remains constant...which is why it is used as a comparison for the various damage types. The duration of poisons and diseases is mostly irrelevant. You won't see a PvP encounter where one person has a poison and disease and runs around with them ticking for 5 minutes. The only way it'll happen is if it hits his Health or Action pool, and he can stim himself fast enough to stay alive.
This brings me back to it being entirely a factor of the mind pool. Do you not see that ALL of the popular PvP combat professions hit the mind? Once mind becomes a healable pool, many of these problems will go away.
If you area CM, try tossing Area Health Poisons and see how many people laugh at you. See how many of htem go under and die. It's ALL MIND.
Cmon now, lets just look at technicalities shall we.Even if we are, I'm not talking about a single target and a single poison. My point is not that it ticks on one person for 5 minutes. My point is the damage you can do in 5 minutes to multiple targets far outweighs anything a riflemen can do. Again, Im talking pvp not pve. So your Krayt example doesnt apply. Im not talking about one big target with 30k of ham. Im talking lots of small targets with 3k of ham. There is a huge difference.
Duration doesnt matter? Are you kidding? Thats at the heart of the problem. You are right though people don't run around with poisons for 5 minutes because they are dead. Try to split hairs if you like but the damage in PVP that a CM does over say 5 minutes will far out damage a riflemen. Take total dead bodies in 5 minutes /seconds= damage per second...LOL
And I have been poisoned and diseased on health and action bars. It is quite effective. Believe it or not many very good pvpers do not have med skills. If they do its novice and that just don't work well. You obviously don't do a lot of pvp. Or you have never tried other professions. In any event my opinions are formed from playing both sides.
I havn't even touched the fact that you can shoot a rifle at the same time you're poisons are rolling.
Message Edited by Morath360 on 07-06-2004 12:15 PM
Morath360 wrote:
Ok, shoot holes in this..
The devs could do4 simple things to fix this.
They could cut all poisons and diseases to 1/4 of what they are now and make them last no more than a minute without reapplication. They then reduce the sp needed bynot making ranged support required. Finally they get rid of Havla. Basically a doc with some offence and a lot of good ranged healing. I know you dont like this but its needed for pvp.
If you are going to use DPS as an argument dont bother. That is what the added SP's are for. Docs get no dps.
You want holes?
Ok... here is what we get from your supposed fixes:
I can choose, for the same ammount of skill points, either choose to:
a) Go CM, Get poisons that fall below the rate of regeneration for a buffed player, get area cures that usually isn't needed due to food, armor and buffs, get a mindheal that casues me to be burned out totally in about six uses. And of course, as all CM's know... be dirt poor. Need to buy subcomponents or schematics of doctors.
or
b) Go Doc Get a profitable profession. Get the benefit of free, always handy buffs, get to cure states and the DoT's that still are life threatening (diverse fires, diseases from animals, diseases and poisons from DoT-weapons (unless they are fixed at the same time as CM poisons)) Get to cure damage andwounds incredibly effective with stims rangeing above 1k.
Wow... wonder wich one I'll choose.
I've heard that option "a" comes with a free lobotomy, which might come in handy. But on the other hand... I could be a Doctor and get dretloads of money, plus save another dretload on buffs...
C'mon... 75% decrease isn't going to work... not even if you pretend to toss us a doggy treat. If you are going to gimp us, you will need to give us bones... and we want meat on them bones.
Or maybe you are just another CH feeling that your misery desires a bit of companionship. I feel for ya man... but petition for love for your profession, not nerfs for our.