Combat Medic Archive
Thread: What is a Combat Medic?
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Kraftomatic
Mon Jul 12, 2004 7:21 pm
#1
Ok this was first a reply to a post in the combat medic forum herethat was locked, the post itself I replied in was locked due to it's "violation" of community policies. However my response I feel is sort of constructive enough that I'd like to discuss it here, since it ties directly into the medic profession and deals with the roles. My reply started off objective and I actually presentedan arguement- then I illustrate and try to make some points. I know it may sound a little nerf cryish in the beginning but this is a style of writing I used in this post to "speak" in a catchy contemporary, excitingsort of way, please don't take it as an insult or flame, I'm just looking for some healthy criticism or if this is something other players can agree with me on:
I always thought itwas reallyridiculous that I had to spendskillpoints (quite alot of them actually)and MASTER a whole profession (Medic) and pick up Elite skills in doctorjust to counter ONE single class (that isn't even an offensive class or true combat class for that reason) out of what...10 combat classes / hybrids? I don't even consider combat medic a true hybrid, combat medic grabs ONE tree from marksman..and they have to master the whole MEDIC profession.. I see the ROLE of combat medic heavily derived from the medic profession itself - that is AID and HEAL those in COMBAT. Not to be a main weapon and means to defeat and fight people. (With Doc it is mighty hard to heal your group in combat, you have to be within 6 meters of them and this is incredibly hard, doctors aren't meant to get close in battle, in PvE they would be aggroed and in PvP they'd be shot fast...so this is where the role of RANGED HEALING comes into play.)
The ranged support tree is ranged SUPPORT. Not ranged ATTACK. If you don't know what support means, it means HELPING OUT in combat, providing aid, combine that with mastermedic and you have a clear hybrid here. If the true intention of CMs were a pure combat class (as it is being used now, more instances exist of CMs applying poisons then throwing stims), CM would haverequired master marksman or weapon trees from marksman, and only ONE tree from medic. But this is not the case! (Infactthink aboutthe ranged support tree..my profession, squad leader is based off of it also. yes you guysusemy tree from marksman, but this tree I believe has a defition not of pure combat and offense, but of a more group focused supporting role and meaning)
If it was up to me, combat medics would have a reinforced and VERY Important role in combat, they would heal IN BATTLE..that means healing 10 of your friends at once with an area stim (which you can do now), or maybe if this was done give CMs the ability to cure combat statesduring battle from a distance or in an area fashion. combat medics should be just that - providing support in the HEAT of battle. Healing massive amounts of health and action from a distance, healing an area of players, and I think they should havemore curing abilitiesother than healing HAM that would make the profession a true medic basedclass (since like what %80 of your skillpoints are in MEDIC...NOT MARKSMAN [and the marksman skillpoints aren't in a weapons specialization but as I said, more of a group based support skill tree).
Why is it someone with the ability to heal from a distance isprevented from healing state effects and COMBATrelated damage and effects? I believe a true FIX to the combat medic profession, is to make it actually perform its role and work as intended: make CMs a valuable, must havepart of combat by healing states like I said above and possibly healing poison/disease or whatever (on a ranged and area basis). Doctors aren't really for big groups in combat I don't believe that is their role, the role belongs to a class or a hybrid which already exists (COMBAT medic) its just that class has no abilities which are on track and on par with its current intent as a primarily medic based healingprofession.
Doctors would still have a role as well, healing the after effects of battle (like diseaes,poisons)and PREPARING players for battle (wound healing) and rezzing. I think docs would be happy with buffs themselves, becuase buffs are REALLY powerful in this game, can't do much without them, this sole ability is worth getting doctor itself.) I think combat medic should EXPAND on the abilities of doctor and the profession should be attractive becuase of the great possibilities to heal these COMBAT injuries. A combat medic should be better than a doctor when it comes to healing becuase they take the doctor's knoweldge about apply it in the field.
Imagine being a doctor..your the only one who can cure state effects or disease/poison and you have a 6m healing range, and you are in a group with 19 other players, if its a PvP group everyone is getting a state effect slapped on them per second...DoT weapons are making most of your group members sick, and they are taking massive damage. Why should a doctor be forced to cure all those types of direct combat related damage? Its VERY hard for them. they would be running all over the place and it would take forever since they have a 6 meter range. area disease poison /disease cures you say? that doesn't sound like a doctor ability, that sounds like a COMBAT MEDIC ability. Infact the abilities assigned to the doc profession to cure those combat related abilities is not really feasible. If I saw 1 or 2 doctors in PvP running around curing players, I'd wanna kill the docs right away. I think many will agree that the abilities of doctor are not exactly combat friendly. People won't stand still in combat and wait for docs to slap heals on, in combat you have to be fast and on the move. Can you really cure someone who is burst running away from a melee person effectively while curing multiple members in the group? not really. Unless your group is all doctors or 1/2 doctors, and with the current situation combat groups really are these days... and this just tells you how broken the professions are!
Why should the Doctor Profession (with a few of its mismatched abilities) have to heal in combat and heal combat DoT, and states when you have a profession created with the intent to do just that?! Why is it Doctors heal more IN COMBAT then COMBAT MEDICS? This is really flawed.
Why create a medic based profession with only ONE healing ability (heal health action mind)? If anything doctors should be able to heal mind. And buff..and rezz...and cure poison/disease andstates on themself or to ONE other person in the 6m radius (as they do now). Combat medics should be able to apply expert curing abilities to AREAS of Effect and through DISTANCES consistant with combat tactics and warfare, effectively being a DOCTOR in the field..
It is thecombatmedic's duty, through training in group tactics and marksman support tactics, and most important medic centrally, to keep a group healed during fights. We are not seeing this profession created as intended here.
Ok maybe I am sort of unsure about the EXACT abilities. I am only roughly going over it in my head but for the most part I think thats how it should be. And please don't quote specific abilities I mentioned as how it exactly should be, I didn't really mean that -these are only ideas I have which would generally define roles and put the MEDIC back into Combat Medic.
Save all the damage, andDoT for the fighting professions.
Make a combat medic a true medic in combat.
jkray8472
Mon Jul 12, 2004 7:30 pm
#2
The biggest problem with your arguement is this:
Nobody needs heals. With buffs, and 80-90% composite armor, the only times you take significant health and action damage is when you are in the DWB or the Corvette. In PvP affairs, the mind is the determining factor 99% of the time. Combat Medics can heal that, but at a high cost to themselves, and only from 6m away. AreaStimpacks and Ranged Stimpacks are virtually useless at this point. Perhaps when the Combat Revamp comes out, Combat Medics can be more "medic," but with the way the game stands now...that just isn't feasible. I would love to be a needed part of a group, but it just isn't necessary right now.
The reason people have a problem with CM (yes--I'll repeat it even though it's been posted on this same forum dozens of times) is that they can specifically target the mind pool. Notice the high number of riflemen, TKA, and Swordsmen in PvP. Fencers also do reasonably well in PvP, but only b/c of their stun damage weapon, and their high dodge and defense modifiers (which let them avoid being hit). That being said, their ScatterHit is sitll the fencer's biggest PvP attack--b/c it hits the mind. If Combat Medics could not poison/disease the mind, nobody would care. Period.
I think CMs should be able to heal more of the things that Docs currently can. Or perhaps have ranged/area versions of state cures (at a high level..whereas novice doctors can use point-blank cures). However, taking away CMs ability to assist in the actual combat (not just healing people who are involved in the combat) is taking away a serious ability. It's half of what they can do right now. That would constitute a nerf--a far cry from the fix we just got.
Mikah
Mon Jul 12, 2004 7:44 pm
#3
The combat balance/armor nerf/buff nerf will see the need for combat medics healing abilities togo up, alot.
Kraftomatic
Tue Jul 13, 2004 5:28 pm
#4
You talk about CM's having a "great ability" to assist in combat...well eh... I sort of consider it an ability which has evolved into an inbalence.
Lets look at DoT for a second. The professions themselves with player made equipment can do two things....Bleeds, and Fire DoT (Commando and Bounty Hunteronly). Bleeds are extremely weak! I know even in PvE if I use mindshot2 on a creature, it's only like a 150 or so tick. The tick is low enough that applying it itself was a waste of time, since the second I could have stuck it on, I could have done like 2-3k damage hit instead in a regular attackwhich is way MORE than the bleed would have ticked for over time. 150 damage is nothin toa 10k++ HAM creature! In PvP if you use a bleed it is soooo small and doesn't even make a difference. (Heck, even if you do get a bleed, as it takes is 2/0/0/0 medic to cure it and no meds needed...So you have the main DoT (bleeding) of like %90 of the combat classes ticking for an extremely small amount of damage,and cured extremely easily with what..20 skillpoints?) And as far as commando and BH DoT (Haha my old profession before I understood the classes, I mentioned commando but COME ON!The profession needs a fix bad and Its sort of a joketo mention it here but it does have SOME sort of DoT so...) Beside commandos being so rare and not even effective in PvP(sloooooow speed, inaccuracy..you commandos out there know the problems) to begin with,the fire DoT used to be good at first, but was later fixed...(now I'd say I see alot of flamethrower DoT's ticking to like -200...or less, something like that.) Overall fighting a bounty hunter / commando is very fairly managable.
You have stimpacks to heal the active white damage, or you can use med use 5 health woundpacks right after you encounter the DoT if the enemy is distracted or dead, or you can invest a few skillpoints in TK Meditate. Both of these options fit SO MANY combat situations. Novice medic and first aid II alone is good against every combat class there is. And novice medic with wound packs and stims is a must have...And with TK Meditate, when you invest skills in it you are also giving yourself INCREDIBLE combat abilities. Curing mind wounds, force of will..the tree applies to any combat siuations and is just awesome to have. But hm...combat medic poison disease? Not so easy....not so fair.
So here you have the combat-only classes, that are only capable of applying I'd say weak DoT for the most part. It does help in a fight but is only 1 of many tactics you need to win. Obviously no combat profession uses DoT as a crutch to win, and it is not really a deciding factor in combat basically.
And you may mention those uber DoT Weapons...well eh....guess what, they still are rare. Statistically they aren't really the norm, and not everyone has access to extremely powerfull DoTweapons. I've killed dozens of nightsisters, I have got plenty of mind and health poison and disease weapons, but all of them so far have been extremely weak...10 Strength...40 Strength Disease.....%3 potency...I mean loot in general of a DoT weapon is RARE. Of the RARE chances you have looting a weapon, a DoT Weapon at that, the chances the stats are decent and good enough to make a big difference in a fight is even more RARE. So you can see kind of that DoT weapons are sort of the exception to aprofession's normal DoT.
So we can understand the big DoT weapons are rare...they just don't fall in your lap, you don't have to simply get skills in a profession to automatically have them right away. And the DoT the combat classes can apply are fairly weak on average (1 uber DoT weapon out of 1,000 drops does not constitute a majority) ..due to the versatile must have medic 2000 or even TK meditate makes most of the profession's DoT managable... The DoT does make a small difference, but with little investment and WORTHWHILE investment, these low low level medic or TK skills can apply to any combat situation. (Also those DoT weapons play by the COMBAT rules...thier initial damage takes into account of buffs, armor, etc, and you need alot of accuracy to strike someone with that weapon and skil to even apply the DoTl..so all becuase you have a DoT does not exactly mean each time you fire it BOOM..automatically takes effect. No...this DoT is in the form of an actual weapon so it has to obey the rules..)Sounds pretty balenced to me so far...
But then...you give a medic based profession..the abilitity....to craft their own DoT. You let them craft poisons which tick that can target ANY pool..you create the foundation, and the opportunity for people to make poisons which can tick anywhere from -400 to -900 (900 is the highest I have seen, ofcourse 900 is not the norm, with high quality resources I'd say a good 600-700 is possible..maybe more I dunno I was never a crafting typeCM myself but I'd say those numbers are fair in an arguement)...and you give that profession the ability to craft wound ticking disease DoT...you make that profession able to apply these poison diseases to more than one person at once, and from a distance fairly quick. You let them apply the DoT and stack it evenwith no accuracy at all...guarenteed shot...you let the DoT ignore any limits of defenses (and by defenses I am going further then dodge/block ETC and including all combat defense...natural def. taking foods, armor etc).... Come on folks this class has been the most exploited, the most abused.....You give a mainly non combat profession this life and deathability..........THEN...(this is what strikes me) give the combat classes the type of DoT I mentioned in thefirst paragraph? You can't even compare CM DoT because it is on a Godly level...a level that rises above all the other playersthat takes way too much skills and way too much effort to solve. If anyone here can't notice this tremendous problem you must be blind...
Ok so maybe you shouldn't remove CM DoT altogether, but obviously SOMETHING must be fixed to put this profession in line with balenced and fair combat. The abilities I mentioned in the original post areawesome in giving CMamore focused role...butyou can't leave the current DoT in the game and expect combat to be balenced and fine. CM DoT is perhaps the biggest loophole yet... don't take my word for it, just look at the Developer's track record:
-They have fixed bleedshot1 bleedshot2 from stacking...
-They have reduced fire DoT from commandos...
Ah I think you see where this is going. I predict that DoT will be redefined in the combat balence, you WATCH. I cannot wait until things are somewhat balenced on a decent level! It would even be nice to see a fair reduction in poisons and disease, not a full %75 but some sort of reduction that applies...or maybe effectively make poisons an actualTHROWN weapon. And give CM's the thrown weapon accuracy and rangeof a commando =P Look at bounty hunter....they get carbine mods and carbine speed...what's wrong with giving a THROWN poison/diseasse the same mods and structure?
You have people cheating the profession and spamming diseases and poisons for NOTHING but a quick "i wini win i win" result. I mean gosh...this is clearly NOT what was intended of these abilities....amen!
Message Edited by Kraftomatic on 07-13-2004 08:29 PM
Message Edited by Kraftomatic on 07-13-2004 08:49 PM
Kraftomatic
Tue Jul 13, 2004 6:24 pm
#5
Okay for some reason my Original Post here is missing and or deleted. That's odd. The thread starts off with a reply after my post...gr.
Message Edited by Kraftomatic on 07-13-2004 09:25 PM
Pahdbacca
Tue Jul 13, 2004 6:47 pm
#6
Change your profile settings to be able to view one-starred posts, then you might be able to see it.
OmniBrio
Tue Jul 13, 2004 7:32 pm
#7
First I'd like to say AHEM!!!!! Yes hit the nail right on the freaking head!
CM is a "support" class NOT the end all be all of combat, half the time the CM just lets the poison "tic" then do the one point of damage left with what ever weapon they have (or sometimes let the disease do that for them) this is not fighting this is not tactics this is just pure CHEESE. People turn to the "i win" button far too often, CM needs to be fixed, because as is, it is not a balanced proffession or working as planned to. You shouldnt have to spend the extra points or have a doc with you all the time. Doctor isnt even suppost to be out and fighting. The combat medic is the one that should be out in the fighting, as the name suggests. There are many ways this can be fixed, i wont even get into it.
(haha one starring those posts, hmmm i wonder who did that LOL)
--J'ango
Pahdbacca
Tue Jul 13, 2004 7:58 pm
#8
Copying ThunderHearts post for the 20th time it seems........................
Quoted from the 19 questions answered by TH on 6/3/04.......
Combat Medic
Since the start of the game, Combat Medics have debated amongst themselves as to their role in the game. Are we to be the best battlefield healers? Are we to be the offensive crowd/control juggernauts? What part did the devs have in mind for our profession in the overall design?
Without an answer to guide us, we've each chosen our own approach,takenour own paths, and madeour own role. Some have tried to use the profession for pure healing, yet our healing abilities are far below that of our Doctor counterparts. Some have taken the role of chemical warfare agents and use their abilities to infect others with poisons and diseases, even though our offensive capability isextremelylackingin certain areas while somewhat overpowered in others.With the Combat Rebalance on the horizon, and all the major changes that entails, the Combat Medic community would like to know what role our profession is meant to play in the grand scheme of things after all is said and done.
What is the developer’s vision of the Combat Medic Profession, post Combat Rebalance? Are we to be Combatants with a bit of healing ability or Healers with a bit of combat?"
The developer’s vision of Combat Medics is to be exactly that - - medics that have abilities to heal players in combat.Optimally, the player should have the choice to make that decision to be “be combatants with a bit of healing ability or healers with a bit of combat” and this is another great example of something the correspondents and I will want community input on during the testing while the CB sandbox is up.
The CM community has been asking since lauch what their role in SWG is to be. This is the most complete answer we have recieved. You may be of the opinion that CMs are to be a support profession, and some CMs may agree with you. But other CMs, and the official stance of the Devs, is that CM can be either, depending on how you play it.
Kraftomatic
Tue Jul 13, 2004 8:02 pm
#9
Ok so they are healers with some combat capability...but the only way to truly make this balenced is to fix the "weapons"- the poisons and diseases themselves. I think my DoT Reply said it all - CM "weapons" are not on the same level as all the other combat professions. These weapons of the CM are making the game not enjoyable for alot of people.
Pahdbacca
Tue Jul 13, 2004 8:22 pm
#10
/Edit....Nevermind /sigh
Message Edited by Pahdbacca on 07-13-2004 11:23 PM
Brainplay
Wed Jul 14, 2004 4:31 am
#11
Kraftomatic wrote:
Ok so they are healers with some combat capability...but the only way to truly make this balenced is to fix the "weapons"- the poisons and diseases themselves. I think my DoT Reply said it all - CM "weapons" are not on the same level as all the other combat professions. These weapons of the CM are making the game not enjoyable for alot of people.
Actually its "weapon" without the S. There's only one type of poison that matters and its MIND poison. The imbalance isn't the poisons themselves, its the fact that the MIND pool is gimp compared to the other pools.
And to the other guy, why in the hell would you want to get novice medic when you could go up the Fencer or Pistoleer defense trees instead. The defenses and doctor buffs give you the "god" mode as opposed to any other character with one combat profession or even most things in PvE.
Kraftomatic
Wed Jul 14, 2004 4:58 am
#12
Slap on an intimidate/stun/blind and the defense stacker is probably about as effective as someone with one combat prof or darn close to it. Everyone gets medic skills becuase not that many players chose a profession mainly to directly aid other people... Alot of combat players want to support themselves and solo. These problems will probably be fixed in the combat balence. This creates a problem with the healing professions...true not that many people may need heals, but at the same time I would like to see a fight last more than 50 seconds...afterall, what good is paying 35k for entertainer and doc buffs, and alot of credits for good weapons, armor and food if you are back at the cloner a minute later. Can't really duke it out, fight to the death and enjoy doing it.Sure this inbalence is caused by gimped pools, but I believe -600++ style DoT isideal for a creature withten thousand, thirty thousand, or more ham...You can't apply that same exact DoT to a player with 2,000 mind. I wish I could do 1,000 or more damage in PvP with my rifles, but it just won't happen becuase its not fair. I'm all for combat medics getting stronger poisons for PvE, but when you step into the realm of PvP EVERYTHING has to be toned down for balence and fairness since the system can easily be turned around to grief players andcreate a horrible gaming experience even with the best tactics attempted... It's quite clear... CM DoT has "slipped through the cracks" in more than one way and it needs to be regulated in PvP somehow, either by spacing out the ticks or reducing poison strength by a fair amount.
When a profession can do any kind of damage, DoT or not and there is no difference between the damage in PvP and PvE, there IS a problem and there is an unfair advantage with that problem. Can't deny that.
Message Edited by Kraftomatic on 07-14-2004 08:04 AM
Message Edited by Kraftomatic on 07-14-2004 08:09 AM
Message Edited by Kraftomatic on 07-14-2004 09:09 AM
Brainplay
Wed Jul 14, 2004 7:34 am
#13
Kraftomatic wrote:
Ok so they are healers with some combat capability...but the only way to truly make this balenced is to fix the "weapons"- the poisons and diseases themselves. I think my DoT Reply said it all - CM "weapons" are not on the same level as all the other combat professions. These weapons of the CM are making the game not enjoyable for alot of people.
Actually its "weapon" without the S. There's only one type of poison that matters and its MIND poison. The imbalance isn't the poisons themselves, its the fact that the MIND pool is gimp compared to the other pools.
And to the other guy, why in the hell would you want to get novice medic when you could go up the Fencer or Pistoleer defense trees instead. The defenses and doctor buffs give you the "god" mode as opposed to any other character with one combat profession or even most things in PvE.
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