Combat Medic Archive
Thread: My CM Defense
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Moosemillion
Fri Jul 09, 2004 5:28 am
#1
I posted this in the GCW, and I wanted to bring it here for discussion as well.
POST ON GCW THREAD
You know, I hear a ton of complaining about how uber CMs are, when its really not that difficult to defeat them. I have taken a great deal of time to read recent threads about CM, and have put together responses to complaints or questions below. I will be more than glad to discuss with any Dev, correspondant, or player point by point any specific and relevant question or complaint. Maybe together we can actually develop a reasonable and relevent list of action items the devs can look at.
How To Beat A CM
a) spread out your people so that area poisons dont take out your whole group
b) have some docs with havla and bivoli with a stack of poison and disease cures
c) kill them before they kill you
d) equip CA and AA with poison and disease resists
e) get one yourself
Now for my responses to criticisms contained herein:
- "Great. And is it intended for CMs to be able to stack 12 DOTs on a single pool?"
A single CM cannot do that. But 12 rifleman can, by hitting one CM once a piece with mind2. Or any 12 players who purchase a lance or a VK or any weapon that has DoT attacks. 12 CMs using DoT attacks are no different than any other 12 players spamming any other strong attack.
- "-their attacks do not have to go through armor/PSG's"
Do you know of any poison or disease, in any universe, that would be hampered in the least by any armor? A better solution to this issue would be to introduce modifications to armor or PSGs to specifically guard in part against poisons or diseases. As a matter of fact, they already do exist. They're called Clothing Attachments and Armor Attachments, poison resist and disease resist.
"-their attacks tick for larger then even regular combatants can hit once (as a MRM, I hit someone withgood armor for anywhere from 100-300 max, poison can tick for 800)"
Actually, if you have some really good stuff you can get 1000 per tick. And I TKM or a BH can spam knockdown and hit for 4000 pts before you ever get back up. Or a rifleman can hit you 2-3 times from 65m before you close in to melee range for a total of 2-3000 pts. If you use the right weapons to counteract the resists of a creature, NPC, or player armor, you wouldnt have that problem. And while a knockdown attack hits with certainty, a CM is not garaunteed to connect with every throw.
-the damage they do does not have the deterent of using up HAM from specials (ie. when a normal person does a damaging special, it uses up some of their HAM for every single attack. Once a CM throws a poison/disease and uses that HAM for the first special, their HAM does not get drained anymore despite the poison/disease continuing to do damage.
Thats just not right. CM throws and it drains mind once. Rifleman hits with mind 2 and it drains once. Any DoT attack drains once. Any special weapon with a DoT drains just once. This is how DoT works, not how CM works.
-their damage can only be cured by a specific elite profession (and one of the few elite professions that requires mastery of a starting profession), and even that person curing is still losing HAM because they use the /cure specials, which drains their HAM, so the CM is technically still doing damage.
Does this mean that we should nerf creatures who use poison or disease? This is a game of strategy. In athletics you use specific role players to do certain tasks. In RL work environments you use specifically trained people to do specific jobs. I wouldnt send on Offensive Lineman to cover a Wide Reciever. I wouldnt have my pitcher bat cleanup, I wouldnt have my point guard play center, I wouldnt have a CH heal disease. Thats why there are specialties. It encourages teamwork. And in terms of a doc using HAM to cure disease, CM expend HAM sending out the disease. To be fair, there should be area cures as there are area heals. That would be a good way to balance the area poison of CM.
- "If I run into a CM in a city, and he poisons me, I have no choice but to run. This is not very fun."
If you run into a jedi, how fun is that? If you have no melee defense and you run into a TKM, how fun is that? If you run into a commando and he flames you how fun is that? If a rifleman mind 3 attacks you from 65m away and you dont even know where he is, how fun is that? When a CH sends a level 50 rancor to attack you how fun is that? When an imp sends his ATST after you how fun is that?I could go on and on and on. Again, this is why there are multiple professions, and why each profession has its strength and weakness.
- "i hope this means no more cm's using havla."
Why should any one profession (other than Jedi) not be able to use a food, drink, spice, or buff that any other could use? TKM could use synthsteak, canapes, brandy, and muon to give them enough prtection to take out any CM in the game before they take out the TKM. Remember, CMs cant incap or DB with poison or disease alone.
- "what about throwing while swimming, and throwing through walls/floors? I can't throw traps through floors/walls or while swimming. "
Your absolutely right. No one, including CM, should be able to do either.
- "30 second timer on poisons and diseases would be better.Also havla bug needs fixing."
Some PVP matches are over in less than 30 seconds. If youre going to recommend a solution, at least make it a viable one. Havla works for docs one way, it should work for CMs the same way. Docs can heal wounds and treat injuries at a certain pace, dictated by modifiers of skill and of attachment/clothes etc, CM should work exactly the same way. It is not fair for a CM to attack quicker than a doc can heal by a rediculous amount, but to maintain some sense of reasonability poisons and diseases do in fact spread quicker than doctors can heal or cure them, even in RL, at least at first. A reasonable remedy would be to create Area Cures for Docs.
- "The range is doubled as a result of the CM Range mod, that determines the final range: Final Range = Med Range * (1+Range Mod/100)which, at Master CM, results in: Final Range = Med Range * 2
This calculations also occures with the Poison/Disease strength, which is calculated by using the CM effectiveness mod.
It also happens with Doctor, and that allows them to buff our H&A Stats for 2500 and not for the number that is stated on the Med Packs, which is also affected by the Master Doctor Wound Treatment mods."
Snakae you are absolutely mathematically correct. Nerf CMs then Nerf buffs. It uses the same math.
All that being said, let the discussions really begin.
BMM
And for once I would like to see someone who IS that profession complain about that profession.I have NEVER seen a TKM say nerf TKM, a rifleman say nerf rifleman, or god forbid a Jedi say nerf Jedi. Every profession has its strengths and weaknesses, and if you spent half as much time trying to figure them out as you do posting about nerfing them all your would have figured it out already.
That being said, max ranger for a CM should be 65m, period. However, there should be CM range powerups and CA / AA just like there are for ranged weapons.
BMM
jkray8472
Fri Jul 09, 2004 6:19 am
#2
Moosemillion wrote:
I posted this in the GCW, and I wanted to bring it here for discussion as well.
POST ON GCW THREAD
You know, I hear a ton of complaining about how uber CMs are, when its really not that difficult to defeat them. I have taken a great deal of time to read recent threads about CM, and have put together responses to complaints or questions below. I will be more than glad to discuss with any Dev, correspondant, or player point by point any specific and relevant question or complaint. Maybe together we can actually develop a reasonable and relevent list of action items the devs can look at.
How To Beat A CM
d) equip CA and AA with poison and disease resists
I believe these do not work. Haven't done the tests myself though.
Now for my responses to criticisms contained herein:
- "Great. And is it intended for CMs to be able to stack 12 DOTs on a single pool?"
A single CM cannot do that. But 12 rifleman can, by hitting one CM once a piece with mind2. Or any 12 players who purchase a lance or a VK or any weapon that has DoT attacks. 12 CMs using DoT attacks are no different than any other 12 players spamming any other strong attack.
Actually a single CM can stack 12 dots onto a single pool. Single Mind Poison C, B, A, Area Mind Poison C, B, A, Single Mind Disease C, B, A, Area Mind Disease C, B, A = 12 dots on the same pool. However, without havla, this will take 48-60 minutes (based on lag) to place on someone. I honestly don't see CMs wasting their time like this except on high-end mobs.
"-their attacks tick for larger then even regular combatants can hit once (as a MRM, I hit someone withgood armor for anywhere from 100-300 max, poison can tick for 800)"
. And while a knockdown attack hits with certainty, a CM is not garaunteed to connect with every throw.
Knockdown attacks are not a certainty. People have Defense vs knockdown. Also, you can miss someone when trying to use that special. Also, if you use a KD attack on someone who is KDed...I think they stand up, so you don't want to spam it.CMs are only guaranteed to hit if their potency is high enough. If your potency is low, you will miss periodically. If your potency is high, you will not miss.
-their damage can only be cured by a specific elite profession (and one of the few elite professions that requires mastery of a starting profession), and even that person curing is still losing HAM because they use the /cure specials, which drains their HAM, so the CM is technically still doing damage.
Does this mean that we should nerf creatures who use poison or disease? This is a game of strategy. In athletics you use specific role players to do certain tasks. In RL work environments you use specifically trained people to do specific jobs. I wouldnt send on Offensive Lineman to cover a Wide Reciever. I wouldnt have my pitcher bat cleanup, I wouldnt have my point guard play center, I wouldnt have a CH heal disease. Thats why there are specialties. It encourages teamwork. And in terms of a doc using HAM to cure disease, CM expend HAM sending out the disease. To be fair, there should be area cures as there are area heals. That would be a good way to balance the area poison of CM.
Yep. This game is supposed to foster Massively Multiplayer groups and strategies. Too many people think that they should be able to solo anyone and everything in the game. Combat Medics help foster interdependence by requiring groups to have doctors along.
- "i hope this means no more cm's using havla."
Why should any one profession (other than Jedi) not be able to use a food, drink, spice, or buff that any other could use? TKM could use synthsteak, canapes, brandy, and muon to give them enough prtection to take out any CM in the game before they take out the TKM. Remember, CMs cant incap or DB with poison or disease alone.
CMs can still use havla. However, a master CM with havla will not be able to spam poisons/diseases nonstop anymore. A novice CM will probably get to hit that 4 second cap that masters are at with havla, and CMs can use it for area stims. But havla + poison/disease was gamebreaking, so they are trying to fix it.
And for once I would like to see someone who IS that profession complain about that profession.I have NEVER seen a TKM say nerf TKM, a rifleman say nerf rifleman, or god forbid a Jedi say nerf Jedi. Every profession has its strengths and weaknesses, and if you spent half as much time trying to figure them out as you do posting about nerfing them all your would have figured it out already.
There are people who claim to be CMs posting here. Some may actually be. However, we can't be sure.
That being said, max ranger for a CM should be 65m, period. However, there should be CM range powerups and CA / AA just like there are for ranged weapons.
There are Healing Ranged CA. However, they (like all the other CM attachments) either do not work, or are hard-capped at +100. I have done the tests myself, and they do not work.
jfang
Fri Jul 09, 2004 6:49 am
#3
jkray8472 wrote:
- "i hope this means no more cm's using havla."
Why should any one profession (other than Jedi) not be able to use a food, drink, spice, or buff that any other could use? TKM could use synthsteak, canapes, brandy, and muon to give them enough prtection to take out any CM in the game before they take out the TKM. Remember, CMs cant incap or DB with poison or disease alone.
CMs can still use havla. However, a master CM with havla will not be able to spam poisons/diseases nonstop anymore. A novice CM will probably get to hit that 4 second cap that masters are at with havla, and CMs can use it for area stims. But havla + poison/disease was gamebreaking, so they are trying to fix it.
There seems to be a common perception that a master combat medic can throw poisons faster than a novice. I experimented three set ups: a MCM with ranged healing speed skill tapes, MCM, 4444 CM, and found that they all threw poisons at the same speed. Now, with issues of lag messing up the timing, this might not be the case, but I am reasonably certain that there is not modifier for the speed you can throw a poison. (Or the modifier is injury treatment speed, which is completed at master medic.)
I'm hoping somebody else will be able to confirm or deny this (and possibly getting an official dev statement if this is confirmed), but nobody ever responded to that post... 
jkray8472
Fri Jul 09, 2004 6:52 am
#4
Drop the whole tree and see Jfang. The difference between 75/100 speed isn't so reat as 5/100. 
aeuralis
Fri Jul 09, 2004 6:57 am
#5
1) CA and AA attachments WORK. You don't get a systemmessage but the CM does.
2) A CM " in theory" can stack 12 dots, but in practice it doesn't happen. Even using Havla, most people don't stand still long enough for it to happen. That is called using tactics. Secondly most CM's dont carry all of those stims.
jfang
Fri Jul 09, 2004 7:03 am
#6
jkray8472 wrote:
Drop the whole tree and see Jfang. The difference between 75/100 speed isn't so reat as 5/100.
Is this a "it does work, try this and see" statement, or a "run a better test and let us know" statement?
Incidentally, the test I ran was spamming 6 consecutive poisons. I found that they took 24 seconds to throw, or just under a 5 second a delay (6 poisons is 5 delay cycles).I ran this test 4 times (and used up a lot of old action and health poisons :smileyhappy.
With this, a 75/100 speed should have reduced the time to be something like 28 seconds, a small but noticable change. I did not notice such a speed decrease.
fastanddeadly
Fri Jul 09, 2004 7:47 am
#7
it still amazes me that pretty much every post on this boar turns into someone slaging off cm's in whihc most of them arnt even cm's and just post to whine. it isnt right
jfang
Fri Jul 09, 2004 7:55 am
#8
fastanddeadly wrote:
it still amazes me that pretty much every post on this boar turns into someone slaging off cm's in whihc most of them arnt even cm's and just post to whine. it isnt right
Welcome to our nightmare...
The "report abuse to moderator" (trolling) button is your friend. In the past few weeks, GarVa and Virrge (hmm, I spelled that completely wrong) have been loosening up on the "don't troll" locks, but it doesn't hurt to try to get them locked. If enough thread trolling reports go it, the moderators will do something about it.
Hmm, I wonder if everybody got together and reported the FAQ as trolling (as a joke of course), what would happen to it... 
Moosemillion
Fri Jul 09, 2004 8:03 am
#9
I gotta ask, since I've only been usingt the forums for a short while, what exactly is trolling?
BMM
jkray8472
Fri Jul 09, 2004 8:53 am
#10
jfang wrote:
jkray8472 wrote:
Drop the whole tree and see Jfang. The difference between 75/100 speed isn't so reat as 5/100.
Is this a "it does work, try this and see" statement, or a "run a better test and let us know" statement?
Incidentally, the test I ran was spamming 6 consecutive poisons. I found that they took 24 seconds to throw, or just under a 5 second a delay (6 poisons is 5 delay cycles).I ran this test 4 times (and used up a lot of old action and health poisons :smileyhappy
With this, a 75/100 speed should have reduced the time to be something like 28 seconds, a small but noticable change. I did not notice such a speed decrease.
It was a run a better test and see. I was a 4/0/0/4 CM for a while...and out on a hunt I trained up to 4/4/0/4. I was pretty sure I noticed a significant improvement in the message informing me I was fit to toss more poisons.
Perhaps there was a hard cap (that Havla could overcome) that you actually reach at +75. Or perhaps various lag spikes etc makesa test wiht a smaller differential hard to do. I'm not discounting your research at all. I did my own tests with the skilltapes, but didn't have enough AP points to drop Master. :/ Just wish we could see better.
jfang
Fri Jul 09, 2004 9:27 am
#11
jkray8472 wrote:
It was a run a better test and see. I was a 4/0/0/4 CM for a while...and out on a hunt I trained up to 4/4/0/4. I was pretty sure I noticed a significant improvement in the message informing me I was fit to toss more poisons.
Perhaps there was a hard cap (that Havla could overcome) that you actually reach at +75. Or perhaps various lag spikes etc makesa test wiht a smaller differential hard to do. I'm not discounting your research at all. I did my own tests with the skilltapes, but didn't have enough AP points to drop Master. :/ Just wish we could see better.
Me too. As I recall, a certain correspondent said he was going to look into it on TC and get back to us (in regards to skill tapes in particular)...
Well, I have a new up and coming combat medic. One of these days I'll finish 00x0 CM, and make a poison to test this out with. I'll notify people if my tests become more conclusive.
And to answer the question of what is trolling, the short description is posting disruptive posts. In particular, inflammatory posts, or posts which "force" somebody to reply are considered trolling. Such as "Combat medics are overpowered, how can you possibly say they aren't?", which don't add any new information, and strongly tempt those to respond. In short, trolling is something of a blanket description for "bad posts". It's hard to give an exact description, but "I know it when I see it".
jfang
Fri Jul 09, 2004 6:36 pm
#12
I posted this in another thread, but just for consistency sake...
I just tested a 00xx combat medic, and found I could throw poisons at 4-5 seconds a toss. I tested by throwing 4 poisons in a row.
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