Combat Medic Archive
Thread: Poison can now be cured with TUMS!
Poison + Disease Incaps tho 
Just killed 2 people with disease+poison incap, one a doc couldnt even heal, the poison dropped his mind too quick
No, it fixed the problem it was supposed to fix, the incap dance.
As for thanking a Doctor for it, go ahead. All i did was mention the idea, though as an answer to the incap dance. And I made sure to get other opinions from CMs here and made sure they got passed along to the Dev team. The Dev team decided to go only with the basic form of this even though my personal reccomendation was that I felt the initial idea was too simple and something more should probably be done with it.
Pahdbacca is also pushing away on this issue with all of the other ides that Kavedawg picked up fromt he CMs on ways in which the no-incap rule is problematic for DoTs and some suggestions to modify it so that it still is available to fix the things it was meant to fix (and has, such as the incap dance and loot/corpse rights) while providing the added functionality from posions that we need.
Getting the facts straight helps out a lot when pointing fingers. 
Fixed what problem????
It looks to me like it created at least two exploits that are huge. and created many other problems.
On top of the exploits all the enemy needs to do is run away and viola, he/she has made an ars out of the combat medic.
I was hit with a disease while I had a healing TEF. I didn't care, cuz I knew it would do nothing to me so I went about my normal business then let some doc heal me for great XP.
If there is no penalty for being poisoned or diseased it will be exploited and countered with the simplist of measures.
People spend ALOT of skill points for this profession and it seems to have no teeth and they are getting pulled on every patch.
ZenTripper wrote:
Fixed what problem????
Umm.. the incap dance problem. You know, THE one thing the +1 change was meant to fix.
I don't know where other people got the idea that is was really supposed to fix anything else, because any other change related to it was secondary to fixing the incap dance. The loot/corpse rights was icing on the cake, but not the prime reason for the change.
BTW, I wouldn't blame the Devs for not seeing other avenues of exploit on this because I don't remember any CMs mentioning what you describe as an avenue of exploit either. So we must ALL be pretty dumb not to have seen it, right?
Yes, the change can be frustrating. It's especially so if you are a solo PVE-er (which I tend to be a fairly large amount of the time.) But it's in. What we need to do now is not complain about it, that doesn't do us any good. We need to continue offering solutions. Offering these avenues of possible exploit are also great fo showing the shortcomings of the change in other areas of game balance.
Getting mad about it, though, won't get you too far. I know for a fact that in some cases when a Dev hits a post and they see folks starting to rant, name-call or point fingers, they are far more likely to just stop reading that thread because it ends up being labeled as unproductinve in their minds. Point out the problems and offereing solutions is the way to attract those flies with honey, because that vinegar gets you nowhere.
Ihave just started this profession, and the new rules for poisons and disease are rediculous. To leave +1 on the HAM bar and not incap is a joke and here is why!
two reasons:
1: Since I have been climbing the combat medic tree, I have been askedtomind diseased more people in cantinas than I have hadchances to in PvE or PvP to get the enemy. Why? because it can be used to generate tons of entertainer healing XP. There is no risk here for being diseased!
2: Since the poisons now only chew up HAM and do not incap, players are using this to gain med XP. Whats the big deal to be poisoned if its not going to really hurt you. Again no risk!
Why was this implemented??? I don't get it. Was it to fix some advantage the CM had over others?
There is no cure for Commando flames. I incap now and die regularly because the flames tick so fast now, I can't heal myself in time to stay up. 3 incaps and I am done. Happens so often, its a joke. I know once I am flamed,I will be cloning. There is risk and cost associated here. Item decay, armor degrading, insurance.
Can this tragic decision be undone, so there is pain and penalty again.
There are toxins so elaborate that they literally devastate thier victims. Only in Star wars could toxicologists deliver poisons that a TUMS could relieve.
WHY, WHY, WHY!!!! People are ASKING to be diseased and poisoned because it doesn't hurt anymore!
Zarlor wrote:I don't know where other people got the idea that is was really supposed to fix anything else, because any other change related to it was secondary to fixing the incap dance. The loot/corpse rights was icing on the cake, but not the prime reason for the change.
I don't know if loot/corpse was just icing on the cake. As I remember there was issue with CM not being allowed into group and when they were they were told explictely told NOT to use poison because nobdy would not get exp for killing the mob, faction points, mission complete, loot (especially on big hunt like krayt), etc, etc.
And this made especially hard on CM who were actually foolish enough to solo using poison.
So way having them stop on 1 so they can kill it using conventinal means was supposed to fix all this problem (which it did)
And also I don't know where you get to take all the credit for this +1 idea. This was one of the FIRST thing to hit the test server on previous big patch, even before the mounts.
It was tested for about 4 weeks and there were numerous threads and polls posted by the NEW Correpondants as well as asking rest of CM if they had any better ideas.
This change was not something that was thrown in at the last minute and during entire testing period of more than 4 weeks I saw maybe 1 small thread on test center forum and another 1 (large one I give you that) on main discussion forum where CM showed any kind of protest. Only place I saw where CM complained about it was on this forum, and even here it was pretty much divided, from what I can see big majority not too unhappy with it.
So I don't think pointing finger at Doctor and saying this is all doctor's fault is gonna go over.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=combat_medic&message.id=13095&highlight=poison#M13095
Notice the date. Oct 24th. and that was first BIG discussion on it. The idea was thrown about long before that.
And lot of response were pretty positive about it too.
So don't be going around saying this was someone else's idea but CM's own.
IlyaMasool wrote:
I don't know if loot/corpse was just icing on the cake. As I remember there was issue with CM not being allowed into group and when they were they were told explictely told NOT to use poison because nobdy would not get exp for killing the mob, faction points, mission complete, loot (especially on big hunt like krayt), etc, etc.
Since Mr. Hanson specifically asked me about the incap-dance problem, that's how I know the loot part swas just icing on the cake. The primary issue was incap-dance. As for me taking "credit" well, the word "credit" is kinda debatable here. It's more like getting lambasted for it. I've primarily taken credit so when folks want to point fingers they could point them at me instead of trying to point it at their brand new, at the time, correspondent, Kavedawg. It looks like I first started trolling on this issue on September 23rd (I think Mr. Hanson asked for ideas on this probably the day before.) I think this was the first thread:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=combat_medic&message.id=8559
But there were a couple at that time where we talked about it. Then when the change hit Test Center (unannounced to either myself or Kavedawg, mind you) and Kavedawg announced the change to the CMs, that was when it all hit the fan, so to speak. Kave and I and several others did a lot of work trying to get folks to calm down a bit and actually head over to Test Center to try it, find the problems with it and make suggestions instead of just having fits about it and making all kinds of wild guesses about why it was implimented. (Even after I explained to them it was the incap dance thing and showed the the threads where it all really lauched out of where we had talked about it and only a few folks jumped in to say something.)
So that's the deal. I don't consider that takeing "credit" for anything, though. More like making myself a target.
Thank you for explaining this problem.
My experience in designing and coding software tells me that quick fixes never work. The problem was that the DoT timer never worked accuratly as a timer or it would not have pauses built in triggered by incap events. This isa design flaw that must effect other things.
The devs feeling that a DoT incap is a no-no is BS, becasue a commando will kill me with the DoT incap in less than 5 min. And that is a fact. I have gone down because of 3 incaps caused by flames in less than 30seconds because of people healing and re-incaping me. Poisions and Disease are just as deadly as fire and should be treated as such. But ground has been clearly lost here as there is now a fix in production that has weakend the argument.
My first thought here is that the exploits created by this fix are far more detrimental to the game than worrying about the incap dance. so I would have the following suggestions as I think this topic needs to be addressed, because the fix caused other serious problems.
- Undo the +1 fix
- Have the devs implement a timer that works correctly for DoT attack or have the poision/disease timersubside on incap.
I know this sounds simple, but the problem is the timer itself. Even allowing the poison or disease to subside after incap would be far better and solve the incap dance problem as well as all the new exploits.
As it stands now a doc is not needed to cure poisons. All you have to do is wait for it to subside and viola you are cured. No Doc needed.
This is not ranting. There have been new and numerous problems created by this fix, that can only be corrected by reversing it and solving it a different way.
ZenTripper wrote:
As it stands now a doc is not needed to cure poisons. All you have to do is wait for it to subside and viola you are cured. No Doc needed.
Well sure doctor is not NEEDED, they can just wait 20-30 min for disease to be gone (I went thru about 3 packs of mind disease last few days to help with dancer's healing exp using now all that top of the line resource so max duration may be much longer) then heal yourself with wound-B for mucho mind costfor fullbaror watch dancer in cantina for another 10 min in case of mind disease.
So you take out opponent for 30 min or more if they choose not to use doctor.
I am thinking although doctor is not NEEDED as you say, most people would prefer it rather than wait it out.
And you might not believe it but once they find a way to deal with decay and people start PvP again, this very issue will be brought up and not in favorable light to CM so remember to remind them they don't NEED to wait 30min - hr because of disease, find a doctor.
And as far as compairason to Commando's flamethrower, welp I'm nothing if not for my ignorance when it comes to my insistance on considering CM healer.
Anyhoo I better run when I have the chance since I cause nothing but trouble when I post in this forum.
ZenTripper wrote:
The devs feeling that a DoT incap is a no-no is BS, becasue a commando will kill me with the DoT incap in less than 5 min.
No, no. Not that DoT incap is a no-no. That DoT DEATH is a no-no. In the case of the lfamethrower it was actually an unforseen bug in how wounds and damage interact that allows the flamethrower to incap (and ultimately kill with the 3 incap rule now that the delay tmer is gone).
My first thought here is that the exploits created by this fix are far more detrimental to the game than worrying about the incap dance. so I would have the following suggestions as I think this topic needs to be addressed, because the fix caused other serious problems.
- Undo the +1 fix
- Have the devs implement a timer that works correctly for DoT attack or have the poision/disease timersubside on incap.
I know this sounds simple, but the problem is the timer itself. Even allowing the poison or disease to subside after incap would be far better and solve the incap dance problem as well as all the new exploits.
I agree with you. And I guess I shoudl ahve been cleare that my statements of rants was not actually directed to your initial post,but at the first response you got to it.
Now the question is, how do you fix the timer? What timer are you talking about? The 5 minute timer was initially not there in Beta, but then you got the situation you are seeing with Flamethrowers at the moment. That situation was considered unacceptable (and rumor has it the Devs think it is unacceptable on the flamethrower too.). So the 5 minute delay timer was added so that only 2 incaps woudl occur in 10 minutes. The problem isn't the timer, that I can tell, it's the middle ground. How to make a poison that does not kill, but that does not just incap and then go away? BTW, once that is taken care of the bug with loot/corpse rights will then have to be found and fixed as well if the current method is rolled out. So there are a few sections affected by the change.
As it stands now a doc is not needed to cure poisons. All you have to do is wait for it to subside and viola you are cured. No Doc needed.
This is not ranting. There have been new and numerous problems created by this fix, that can only be corrected by reversing it and solving it a different way.
Docs not needed? Well, they weren't before, really. Poisons and Diseases ahave always been a nuisance thing, really. The are still needed if you are in a situation where you need it, but incapping someone doesn't give them a way to find a Doc to get it cured anyways. But that's just the nature of the beast. Ideally you don't want to make them any less ofa nisance than they are now, though, so that folks will still want to get a Doc for a cure just to be done wtih it, if nothing else.
BTW, while I can appreciate your coding experience something like this is a huge endeavour. I can understand if SOE had just one Dev working on CMs then that dev would never look for a quick fix. The reality of the situaton though, is that this isn't the case. The Dev doing CMs also does Docs, Medics, Armorsmithing, Weaponsmithing and other areas of the codebase as well. ALL of those areas have problems and bugs and then there's new content coding to add on top of it. All part of what the nature of an evolving online community thatrequires simply for financial solvency in this particular business. So I think we are rather stuck wih dealing with relatively quick fixes for things. The best way around that is for us to set up characters on Test Center and get on when these things come out so we can provide informed opinions, find the exploits you are talking about here and the other "holes" and that we we, and our CM correspondent, can try to make sure the Devs are informed about these things going in.
In this case we did try and made suggestions for other options, but the Devs decided to go with this, at least for now.
At any rate, I apologize for the confusion. I'm not trying to berate you here, because pointing out the problems is definitely required and needed. As is offering what solutions we can. I was really trying to head off some of the other rants that inevitably end up in these threads. I just did a very poo job of being clear about who I was, or in this case was not, talking to.