Combat Medic Archive
Thread: CM Evaluation of profession and the proposed damage reduction. (lengthy post)
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Avengre
Tue Apr 20, 2004 9:29 am
#1
Hello, before you flame- Hear me out
I'm a Master Armorsmith on Ahazi. So first off, i MUST say that i've never made a Combat medic before (As its not possible with the skill points needed). However, i have made a Master pistoleer with the smugglers pistol tree. Combat medics are a support class with an uncanny forturning the tide of battle. That is obvious when you view the disease/poisons they get. I've read the posts about how CM's should be subject to the same damage reduction as other classes. And others saying that Cm's are easy to kill, as they have no defense (other than the marksman tree).
Just the other day, i was fighting someone outside Mos Eno on Ahazi (go ONE!). We fought for about 10 minutes before we decided that it was a draw. Both players were well armed, both of us had weapons of considerable power for our classes. He was a rifleman. And me being the pistoleer combo. (Both had full sets of composite equipped and full buffs). Neither had dancer/musican buffs, but we were drunk like fiends on brandy. We fight, and end up not being able to inflict enoguh damage on the other person. My attacks were inflicting roughly, between 90-190 damage to him. (this is what was seen in my combat window, so it has to be taken with a grain of salt.)
Now, look at a battle that was had between a combat Medic and me. Both had similiar equipment / buffs. I spotted the combat medic (and thus got off thefirst shot). First thing i try to do is a /startleshot and a /lowblow. (to startle him for 10 seconds, and knock him on his back, the pistol/smuggler equivelent of a weak dizzy/kd). He gets up and throws the combat poison on my mind while he's still standing up. Its a doozy.so i popa moun and try to hit another brandy but unable, due to my full stomach/bladder. By the first tick (around 10 seconds like said) i lose3/4 my mind to the poison.Keeping in mind that i'm pounding pistol shots into him at roughly 1 each second. Therefore, doing about (say at max of my combat range) of 1,900 damage over the8 seconds that he's knocked down. (taking into account the time from /startle and /lowblow to the next fanshot). Having doctor buffs he regenerates or heals most of the damage that i do to him. The ensuing firefight of his rifle vs. My pistol ends fairly quickly. I have delt maybe another 1,000 damage to him in the time it took for his rifle to finish me off.
The analysis of this battle, is that in overall i delt 2,900 damage to him (which had he not had heals and constitution buffs) would have been significantly enough to kill any normal man. That was my maximum combat potential during that battle (which lasted aproximatly 20 seconds or so). The Combat medic, used his poison, which i dont have the specific numbers for, but my mind was sitting at about 1700 aftershooting up on the moun. The damage he delt (not considering the rifle he opened fire on me at second 12-14 in the battle) with his poison was significant. If not on par to a combat profession. Considering the fact that mind buffs generally only include brandy / moun, and that most othercombat professions (minus swordsman and rifleman) have the damage pools that they can affect having a regeneration stat (const. or stamina.) that is in the 2000-2500 range, which provides considerable-extreme regneration, the damage the poison delt was on par with an elite combat profession. Add into that, the rifle skills (Which isn't necessarily a CM problem), the combinationhas an almost 80% chance of winning a battle if not better.
My analysis of the combat medic profession is that it's a support profession, meant to heal wide varities of damage (being health/action in an AoE and Mind toa single person ((keep in mind i've never been a combatmedic))), and to keep the ability to turn the tide of the battle via. chemical warfare (disease/ poisons).
Many of the arguments i've seen are comparing the Combat medic profession to a pure combat profession. To which i say... well, its not. The combat profession, as said above, is a support profession. CM's are not meant to solo. I can not imagine this is the case that SoE was trying to enforce with the creation of the class. Yet, the defense of the CM's that i read on this board, is that if there was a reduction in the damage that CM's were able to output, it would leave them lacking in combat. To which, i would agree, they would be significantly less effective in combat. But, i believe that this wouldn't be entirely bad. I know that no profession wants to be what they call "nerfed." Butsometimes a class grows to something that it was not intended to be. As it stands right now, the key to most Faction battles (base raids etc) or large scale comabt, is the use of a Combat Medic. This is unsettling to me if a support profession is able to solo an entire raid.
I know that i'll be flamed for saying that they can solo a raid, but its true. Consider a raiding party engages a factional base. the defenders are light, maybe 2-3 elite combat professions and one or two combat medics/rifleman. All the combat medics would need to do is wait till the skirmishers engage and drop the mind poison on the group (or multiple mind poisons between the two combat medics that are defending), then hideb ehind the bases external wall (Which is easy to do in a faction base raid). after 10 seconds they would need roughly one to two shots from a rifle to kill all of the participants of the raiding force. (Mind would bedrained from the DoT, then even lowlevel shots like mind-hit 1 would be adaquate to deal enough damage to remove the remaining mind pool thats leftover after the 10 second dot. This would effectivly reduce a raiding party to nothing in a matter of 30 -45 seconds(considering rethrow time for poisons and the delay that rifles have for the finishup shots).
To me, that tactic just dosent seem viable for a raiding event, or a pvp event. Having there only be 10 seconds before the cm/rm template is able to become fully effective in pvp (due to the low stats in the mind pool after poison having effect).
Ways to correct this? Well, theres a few ways actually.
The First is to remove the poison ability from some combat medics, but this isn't really viable as too many combat medics believe they should have a way of contributing to the battle in an active way, instead of passivly affecting the end result.
The Second is to increase the DoT time for the CM medicines. this would open the combat margin before the CM/RM template is effectively ending the battle (by reducing the opponents mind stat to nil). Perhaps a 50-75% increase in time between first DoT hit and the next. What would the effect of this have on the battle that happened above? Likely not a whole lot, instead of the CM/RM waiting 10 seconds to open fire on the group, they would wait 15 - 20 seconds. Its not a win-all situation, but its a good start for a middle ground. CM's would retain their coveted damage power, while Combat professions would have more time to recover from the fact that, they WILL die from mind incap in a short period of time, and possibly Kill the Combat medic, then seek a doctor to cure the poison.
Third is to give CM's the same damage reduction that is inherent in other combat professions. The 75% would make the game look fair on paper, while if it would be fair in pvp is open to debate (As we can't say for sure, due to the fact that we can't actually put it into use). This is the primary answer people are seeking to the growth of the CM/ MR template. I see both sides of this as good and bad, the good side, is that CM's will be back in a support role for a group (instead of the groups heavy hitter). The bad side is that combat medics will lose a significant amount of their "pvp damage output" that they seek from the profession. While personally, again, i can't understand why all professions aren't subject to a flat out, 75% damage reduction in PvP, i believe that this would be entirely fair to the Combat Medics combat ability.
And lastly, as a statmeent to the CM's who believe that all players should have a pocket-doctor for pvp events. This is good in theory, and even in the description that the dev's give involving "greater player dependency". It is simply not viable unless the doctors are given an AoE cure poison. Which likely will not happen, so the defense that doctors should be the anti-combat medic has no water. Combat medics are just that, MEDICS who accompany soldiers into battle. Dont expect to be the supreme damage dealer in a battle. If anything, combat medics should expect to play a role as more of support, or to help reduce the collatoral damage that will result from an extended firefight.
And Last of the lastly, I've heard a good bit of comment about CM's having a high skill point usage. Thats true, it takes alot more medical knowledge to be effective than it does to shoot a pistol. Think about how long it takes to go through medical school, and then think about how long it takes to shoot a pistol accuratly. Squad leaders haveaout 75% of the skill point usage that Combat Medica have, and they have Zero combat based attacks. Rangerssuffer from the same lack of combat ability. As do Doctors, who are bonafied a necessity in a raid vs. combat medics. The skill points for them rival a CM. The idea of the "nerf" for a Combat Medic isn't really a nerf, its equalizing the playing field. Being prejudicial against one profession and not applying the damage reduction to another, just dosent make sense.
While i know my post swayed a little anti- Combat medic sounding towards the end, it wasn't meant to be personal. Its just a statement of some opinions that i've heard, and counter-responses to those. Feel free to post on the issue, i'd love to be able to comment back on anyone who has objections, or agreements to my post.
- Avengre Traceshot
Master Armorsmith
Mos Eno, Tatooine, Ahazi
Morath360
Tue Apr 20, 2004 10:24 am
#2
Well, I think maybe the name of the profession is what is goofed up. Instead of thinking of combat medic like something out of M*A*S*H, I think they should change it. You like many others make the mistake of thinking the devs intended for the CM to just heal people in battle. The problem is that in real life like the analogy inferred is not what a CM is. They are not only a healer but a Chemical Warfare master. Similiar to a BH is more than simply an investigator.
So I disagree with the idea that all they are for is support. Otherwise take all of their poisons and all the work it takes to craft them and find the resources and throw it out the window. The truth is that they are a combat class. They unlike the docs have offense. Offense changes their role. I have only been a mcm a few days and I am already tired of this.
awthtem-xour
Tue Apr 20, 2004 10:50 am
#3
god u people are MORONS !!!! this game was not made for "dueling". its just a freakn side thing to do for fun !!!!! its not the end-all-be-all of SWG. anyone who thinks so needs to re-evaluate why they are playing this game !!! MMorpg !!!know what that means ??? QW#$FDSAF@#4098dsf98 !!
awthtem-xour
Master CM/Master Pistoleer
Gnuut
Tue Apr 20, 2004 10:56 am
#4
Avengre wrote:
Now, look at a battle that was had between a combat Medic and me. Both had similiar equipment / buffs. I spotted the combat medic (and thus got off thefirst shot). First thing i try to do is a /startleshot and a /lowblow. (to startle him for 10 seconds, and knock him on his back, the pistol/smuggler equivelent of a weak dizzy/kd). He gets up and throws the combat poison on my mind while he's still standing up. Its a doozy.so i popa moun and try to hit another brandy but unable, due to my full stomach/bladder. By the first tick (around 10 seconds like said) i lose3/4 my mind to the poison.Keeping in mind that i'm pounding pistol shots into him at roughly 1 each second. Therefore, doing about (say at max of my combat range) of 1,900 damage over the8 seconds that he's knocked down. (taking into account the time from /startle and /lowblow to the next fanshot). Having doctor buffs he regenerates or heals most of the damage that i do to him. The ensuing firefight of his rifle vs. My pistol ends fairly quickly. I have delt maybe another 1,000 damage to him in the time it took for his rifle to finish me off.
Your stomach was full with what? A player with base mind stats of 800/400/400 can easily get buffed to 1600/800/800 with entertainer buffs. Add in some good 33% Canape and 50% Brandy and you have 2400/3400/3400. All this and you still have a muon in reserve. With 3k+ in Willpower I can easily regenerate a 25 DPS poison which equates to 250 a tic. Even with a 500 tic on me the damage is still halved and goes a long way towards keeping me alive long enough to kill the opposing CM. It was your choice to fill your stomach with anything other than mind enhancing food.
Add into that, the rifle skills (Which isn't necessarily a CM problem), the combinationhas an almost 80% chance of winning a battle if not better.
That is ultimately a problem with mind damage. Using Rifle skills alone I would have beaten you down.
My analysis of the combat medic profession is that it's a support profession, meant to heal wide varities of damage (being health/action in an AoE and Mind toa single person ((keep in mind i've never been a combatmedic))), and to keep the ability to turn the tide of the battle via. chemical warfare (disease/ poisons).
Combat Medics are combat support. We are meant to support the raid by filling the gaps where needed. We toss some heals, we wear down those unhittable highly armored resistant enemies, we quickly shoot out mind heals as necessarry, and we have the ability to remove key players from a battle as we deem fit. Combat medics are by design supposed to do lots of damage. We are the secondary last ditch healers in combat. We can only heal 5 out of 13 types of combat damage.
CM's are not meant to solo.
Any class can solo depending on conditions, equipment and the players skill. Just because a Master BH spent more skillpoints, does not compensate for them playing poorly. If a Novice Tailor/Master Dancer/TKA Dabbler plays his cards right even he can beat a BH. It's all about fighting on your own terms rather than his.
Yet, the defense of the CM's that i read on this board, is that if there was a reduction in the damage that CM's were able to output, it would leave them lacking in combat. To which, i would agree, they would be significantly less effective in combat. But, i believe that this wouldn't be entirely bad.
To those of us CMs that have been able to achieve higher than average results you would smash our crafting achievements. To those newer CMs, you would make their poisons totally useless. As I have pointed out above, with a high willpower you can easily regenerate a 25 DPS poison. A 75% damage reduction would make some of our best poisons only 15 DPS.
This is unsettling to me if a support profession is able to solo an entire raid.
A CM can solo a raid if they are unprepared to handle a CM. No Doctors, bunching up together, DBing a CM these are all traits of an inexperienced raidforce. If you look around on this forum you will find a thread titled Anti CM Tactics. Read, learn and know your enemy.
To me, that tactic just dosent seem viable for a raiding event, or a pvp event. Having there only be 10 seconds before the cm/rm template is able to become fully effective in pvp (due to the low stats in the mind pool after poison having effect).
It depends on the raid. I have been on both sides of the coin and had several successes and several failures. I've been on raids that lasted for hours even while using CMs.
Ways to correct this? Well, theres a few ways actually.
The First is to remove the poison ability from some combat medics, but this isn't really viable as too many combat medics believe they should have a way of contributing to the battle in an active way, instead of passivly affecting the end result.
That sounds good. Remove a full third of a CMs abilities.I mean after all we can still use disease and heal all of 5 types of combat damage. That's a real winner for a profession that costs 169 points. /sarcasm off
The Second is to increase the DoT time for the CM medicines. this would open the combat margin before the CM/RM template is effectively ending the battle (by reducing the opponents mind stat to nil). Perhaps a 50-75% increase in time between first DoT hit and the next. What would the effect of this have on the battle that happened above? Likely not a whole lot, instead of the CM/RM waiting 10 seconds to open fire on the group, they would wait 15 - 20 seconds. Its not a win-all situation, but its a good start for a middle ground. CM's would retain their coveted damage power, while Combat professions would have more time to recover from the fact that, they WILL die from mind incap in a short period of time, and possibly Kill the Combat medic, then seek a doctor to cure the poison.
One of our issues has been to reduce tic time so I doubt that would go over well either. Personally I think poison tic is fine but disease needs to be reduced by 10 seconds to 30 seconds.
Third is to give CM's the same damage reduction that is inherent in other combat professions. The 75% would make the game look fair on paper, while if it would be fair in pvp is open to debate (As we can't say for sure, due to the fact that we can't actually put it into use). This is the primary answer people are seeking to the growth of the CM/ MR template. I see both sides of this as good and bad, the good side, is that CM's will be back in a support role for a group (instead of the groups heavy hitter). The bad side is that combat medics will lose a significant amount of their "pvp damage output" that they seek from the profession. While personally, again, i can't understand why all professions aren't subject to a flat out, 75% damage reduction in PvP, i believe that this would be entirely fair to the Combat Medics combat ability.
As I have pointed out above 25 DPS can easily be regenerated with mind buff food, drink and spice. Reducing our average damage rate to 10-15 DPS would kill our profession just so players like you can save some money on food.
It is simply not viable unless the doctors are given an AoE cure poison.
Doctors have enough going for them as it is. They do not deserve to AE heal anything as that is our forte. Give CMs the AE cure so we can be more inline as the support profession you want us to be.
Combat medics are just that, MEDICS who accompany soldiers into battle. Dont expect to be the supreme damage dealer in a battle. If anything, combat medics should expect to play a role as more of support, or to help reduce the collatoral damage that will result from an extended firefight.
Last I checked we did reduce the time on extended firefights. It is not our fault mind isn't healble. It isn't our fault a combination of poison and disease can incap. It isn't our fault there are LOS issues with AEs.
As for only being medics, you think of the SWG CM as a Paramedic when in fact the SWG Master Medic is the equivalent of a Paramedic. An SWG CM is a scientist with medical knowledge. He knows how to make it hurt. I'm more afraid of a Doctor with a knife than a kid with a gun.....
And Last of the lastly, I've heard a good bit of comment about CM's having a high skill point usage. Thats true, it takes alot more medical knowledge to be effective than it does to shoot a pistol. Think about how long it takes to go through medical school, and then think about how long it takes to shoot a pistol accuratly.
Then how come Doctors have lower skill point usage and are able to heal 12 out of 13 types of combat damage whereas CMs can only heal 5?
Squad leaders haveaout 75% of the skill point usage that Combat Medica have, and they have Zero combat based attacks.Rangerssuffer from the same lack of combat ability.
SLs have a bunch of other abilities but are somewhat broken awaiting a revamp. Rangers are not a combat class.
As do Doctors, who are bonafied a necessity in a raid vs. combat medics. The skill points for them rival a CM. The idea of the "nerf" for a Combat Medic isn't really a nerf, its equalizing the playing field. Being prejudicial against one profession and not applying the damage reduction to another, just dosent make sense.
It does when it makes the purpose of the class useless which is why we don't get a reduction. There is a 29 point difference between doc and cm. I would hardly call that a skill point rivalry.
Mild-Breeze-Trooper
Tue Apr 20, 2004 3:43 pm
#5
Hm... to me it seems there is allready two sorts of M*A*S*H charactes in the game. Both more or less excellently in line with both the TV-series and "real life". They are called Medic and Doctor.
Yes that's right. The handy guy that saves your ass when you are bleeding on the battlefield is the Medic. Not the Combat Medic. Ridicoulous as it might sound to those that has allready set their minds as to what a CM is... it is true.
Combat Medics fill another role on the battlefield. We are the guys who throw poisons and diseases. Really, we should never have been given Area Heals and Ranged Heals... there is the smeg up.
Rejected
Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:03 am
#6
I honestly believe the people who think Combat Medics were not meant for combat are being a little more than close minded.
It seems that the current desire to nerf Combat Medics is being fueled by a particularly effective way the Combat Medic is being used.
I think Combat Medic works as it was intended but the effectiveness of the Mix of Rifle and Combat Medic is making people concerned.
Pistol is underpowered, not a good base to compair with taking out a Combat Medic Rifleman who has a Deadly weapon on his own.
Melee guys love to run around raping other players in close combat and many that I've met cry about ranged players figuring out how to Rape them from time to time.
Perhaps that is what PvP is about? If CM/Rifleman is the ultimate build everyone would be one.
There is a need to balance classes but with the rebalancing looming many of these complaints are meaningless as the entire system is being reworked. This time we should be able to tell for sure what was intended with the class.
If you want to fight against a Healer / Bioweapon character and don't expect to have issues fighting them without a Healer than your going to loose alot. That's the Nature of Warfare.
I'm not a Combat Medic or Doctor but I'm smart enough to know Chemical Warfare is mean. The Devs have to represent that and leave others the option to beat them when properly equiped and teamed.
It seems that the current desire to nerf Combat Medics is being fueled by a particularly effective way the Combat Medic is being used.
I think Combat Medic works as it was intended but the effectiveness of the Mix of Rifle and Combat Medic is making people concerned.
Pistol is underpowered, not a good base to compair with taking out a Combat Medic Rifleman who has a Deadly weapon on his own.
Melee guys love to run around raping other players in close combat and many that I've met cry about ranged players figuring out how to Rape them from time to time.
Perhaps that is what PvP is about? If CM/Rifleman is the ultimate build everyone would be one.
There is a need to balance classes but with the rebalancing looming many of these complaints are meaningless as the entire system is being reworked. This time we should be able to tell for sure what was intended with the class.
If you want to fight against a Healer / Bioweapon character and don't expect to have issues fighting them without a Healer than your going to loose alot. That's the Nature of Warfare.
I'm not a Combat Medic or Doctor but I'm smart enough to know Chemical Warfare is mean. The Devs have to represent that and leave others the option to beat them when properly equiped and teamed.
Obata
Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:53 am
#7
Your post is well stated, but allow me to give you some perspective.If that Combat Medic you fought would have used a health poison, would it have been a problem for you? If your health stats were buffed, then most likely not. The same goes for the action pool. It was only because he attacked your mind (and you had no entertainer buffs) that his poison was so affective. By your own admission, you did a good deal of damage to him, the problem being that he was able to regenerate it. The common theme of every call for a damage reduction to poisons is that the mind pool is the one targeted. So I ask you this. Is it really the poisons that are a problem, or the fact that the mind pools cannot be healed nor buffed as effectively as the others?
A 75% reduction, either in the form of an increased delay or lower ticks would, in effect, be a total (100%) reduction as most characters can regenerate the damage fast enough to negatea DOT at that level. If you ever hunt arachnes or gaping spiders while buffed, you may have noticed that the spiders' poison has essentialy no effect on you because you regenerate the damage within a couple seconds. That is exactly what would happen with CM poisons if the damage were reduced by 75%.
You kept stating that CM is meant only to be a support profession, as if it were a documented fact. Many on this forum would disagree with you. CM is a hybrid profession. Without the poisons and diseases we are nothing but healers with better range than doctors, but otherwise far inferior abilities. It is the offensive abilities that make CM worth the skill points. I played as a master doc for a couple months before I also became a combat medic. I did that only so I would have a chance to explore some other professions before "completing" my character, but doc/cm was always my intended template. I can tell you first hand that in a pure support role, there is little advantage to being a CM over Doc, and many advatages to being a Doc. The healing abilities do not justify the skill points required to master this profession.
Defeating a CM in PVP does take more than just a having a doctor in your group. You have to also demonstrate good team coordination. You doctor needs to be dedicated to curing/healing, and not trying to get any kills. The team needs to know where the doc will be and fall back to him for cures. There are many posts here about how to defeat a CM, so I won't spell it out again, but it can be done and is not even very hard. You lost your 1 on 1 fight because the CM was properly prepared to face your template. He killed you quickly because he targeted your most vulnerable pool. The mind pool is an issue unto itself. We CMs are just one of several professions who appear to be overpowered because we can target it. If mind healing and buffing is brought inline with the other pools, as is promised in the combat revamp, this will cease to be a problem. You'll find that the CM community awaits the combat rebalance as anxiously as any other.
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