Combat Medic Archive

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Heltain wrote:
I'm afraid we can stop discussing now. Kave supports the nerf and i doubt whatever we say will influence his oppinion anymore.
Without help of the correspondent the nerf will go live and we'll have to deal with it.
I can respect your opinion Kave, but i'm very sure that you are in error and we'll all pay for it.
The nerf cries won't stop, they'll increase after this one goes live and i disagree on principle that our primary weapons shouldn't incap.
If that's the final decision however then fine, but give me a CM only gun that i can use to incap my enemies i you think poisons shouldn't or give me back some of my skillpoints i invested in this class.
Every other combat profession can do that with it's specific guns and specials just the CM get's hit with the nerfbat

And we should start singing praises to our Dev now, because he doesn't solve our problems, but pulls an half asses stunt that glosses over the real issues and opens pandoras box for griefers ? I think not.

If the Dev can't solve the problem because too many other aspects of the game are needing attention then they should come out and say that. I've watched the same kind of shady tactics since the game went live and i'm finally starting to get annoyed.

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I do support SOME things this " fix / nerf " does, and the few posters have offered up any constructive alternatives on how to get what needs to be fixed accomplished without the +1 cap. those posts will bepassed along to the correspondent forum. For the most part all of you have been bitching, moaning, and complaining on how I am to blame for all of this and how you are going to quit the CM profession because of this change which amounts to one point on the HAM. But all of you do need to realize something other than the fact thatCOMBAT is in our name, we had to master aMEDIC profession, NOT A COMBAT profession, to become a combat medic.

Our ranged stims are for healing someone else a fair distance away from us and our AoE stims are designed to heal at least 20 people in one shot. The ranged support line that we are required to take to become a CM has no high damage attacks, buthas several specials which providemeans to keep your enemy pinned down. Most of the This kinda tells me that maybe....just maybe a CM should not be soloing PvP or PvE and if you strongly feel that the CM should go head to head with a BH or commando and have a 50/50 chance of being the victor just because of the skill points we spent, well there one more thing we can disagree on. I really doubt the dev's had pets in mind when they put together the design for the stims.

Now, most of the complaints seem to aimed at how this will nerf us in PvP. I ask you why do you feel the need to solo in PvP if you have the abilities to heal entire groups at range. I also ask you why do you feel the need to solo when you will be the only profession who can heal someone else's mind butcan not healyour own. If you had the support of a group, the 1 point of HAM would be nothing to get rid of. Is the reason all you PvP CM's go solo because of the faction? nobody as far as I can tell has answered this question directly and if you didI am sorry I missed it in the flames.

and one final thing, for those of you are inclined to believe that I am only presenting my viewpoints on the matter, you are largly mistaken. I posted on the correspondent forum that something like this could occur if this paticular change was put in place, yet here we are in one giant ball of wax. I have NO power to sway ( as far as I know ) the devs. I am not whispering conspericies to nerf the CM's to hell and back nor am I presenting only my ideas to the dev. I take all of your ideas and any ideas that get kicked up by your input and post it to the correspondent forum. what I am getting at is my opinon dosen't amount to jack, everything minus the rants, flames, and BH imput gets passed on

I feel like a preschooler that has been given "Safety Scissors" and told "Here use these you might of hurt someone with those pointed ones".

KaveDawg meantoned in an earlier post that there will be more creatures that will have the poison/disease (DOT)ability. Creatures that had always been intended to have this ability. I know that my group, and I have been incaped by creature poison on several occations (One reason I became Doctor too). Combat Medic poisons are, and SHOULD be no diffrent than what is found in nature. Except that we use our "Expertise" to concentrate, and refine then to their most lethality. Combat Medic DOT's Should incap!

Let's look at some of the recent NERF's and the Dev's posted reasoning behind them.

• Bounty Hunter - Eyeshot moved to Master




• This was done because people would just get the needed skills to get eyeshot, and to use the LLC.


• This made Mastery of the profession unnessary. Someone could "Dabble" and be deadly in a world of no mindheal ability.


• Creature Handler - Recreating the Skill Tree




• Again, people could "Dabble" and still pull out some very powerful creatures.


• Now only Masters can do what everyone could do before.

In both examples now Master means something.

Now let's look at Combat Medic.

• Everyone here can agree that A, and B DOT packs are not what people are complaining about. They are pretty much useless in PvP. In anything for that matter. It's the C Packs that people prefer.


• C packs have a high CMed use


• You need all 10 experimentation points to make a good DOT.


• The base effectiveness is rather paultry when a DOT is made. Even by a Master. It's the Combat Medic Effectivness rating (Current max +90 for Master) that gives the Combat Medic the Range, effectiveness boost to make the DOT deadly.

The Devs adjusted the classes in the above example to make master mean domething. So basicly you have to be a MASTER COMBAT MEDIC to use good DOTS. I don't know anyone "Dabbles" in Combat Medic just to use the DOT's. The do to use our stims.

If someone wants to invest their TIME, and SKILL POINTS in becoming Master Combat Medic their journey should have a worthwhile ending. DO NOT LET THIS GO LIVE

Thank you

actually it was Jacore that posted that bit on the CH pets ( thanks )

also, all dot's, even thoes that arehanded outby critters are capped at +1

and there is one other thing this patch will change , the CM's who abuse the system by tossing and hiding in a house knowing that theirtarget will be incapped in a matter of time, so they can DB at their leisure. With the change on TC, this will allow thetarget to run forcing the CM who would normally be hidden to expose himself allowing the target some manner of defense against a DB.

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Kavedawg wrote:

But all of you do need to realize something other than the fact thatCOMBAT is in our name, we had to master aMEDIC profession, NOT A COMBAT profession, to become a combat medic.

This might be because our offensive skills would make no sense to fall under the marksman or brawler category. Making poisons and diseases is a scientific process just like making medicines.

edit :

last line of first paragraph after I quoted KaveDawg should read: "Why shouldn't I be tied for 2nd in power to a BH when I've gone through only 34 skill points LESS of combat training". Not LEFT of training, lol.

PvE:

Combined with armour hole bug fix this change kills soloing. CM with no other marksman skills wont be able to solo anything stronger than a kreetle. If armor hole wont be fixed, or it will be left as a feature, then soloing will be possible on some kind of uber mobs like DJMs, but anyway its a great nerf since no krayt/kimo will let youmake dozens of shots waitingfor a armor hole shot.

Suggested fix: no +1 change to PvE for at least one HAM pool (since it really doesnt matter in PvE what pool to poison, mobs dont use HAM on specials as i know).

PvP:

This will stop soloing PvP in any case, both suicide or "normal". Bad nerf for some CMs, great for all other overts (ifALL DOTs suffer same nerf). Seems like very stupid idea, as its not a balance fix, it is plain nerf.

Suggested fixes:

- 75% reduction for all DoTs in PvP

- Make only non-healable mind pool stop at +1. Combined with 75% less damage this will give poisoned person a reasonable time to left area and heal.H/A pools are healable and dont need this nerf as long asDOTs do only 25% damage.

- rebalance schematics. Currently A andB poisons require pretty same resources as C and are just little weaker. I suggest reducing initial potency twice, initial duration twice for A, 4x forB and C. From my point of view C pack 10 points experimented on strength and made from great resources should deal 5k damage max, not over 17k total as it do now. A and B 1k and 2k. Combined with low unexperimented potency this should really make a decision - potency or strength/duration. Speaking with numbers for C packs, i suggest 100/150/5k for great potency pack, 40/300/5k for strength pack or 40/200/15k for duration pack. As i dont know how exactly duration is calculated and applied, those 5-15k are estimated total damage.

This will really divide packs into PvE, PvP fast kill or PvP guaranteed longtime annoying poisons. Also it seems same pattern should be made for area diseases.

Overall: poisons are far superior to other DoTs as they totaly ignore armor and resists when applying, they are very buggy and dont cause mob aggro 30-50% times, they have area modification. Rebalance of poisons and DOTsoverall is ok. Plain nerfing our _ability_ to use main class weapon is really ugly.

In response to Kavedawg's original post:

All five.

If this does go live, CM's should have the time between tossing another stim/poison lowered as well as dropping the amount of mind use it takes to use these items.

The Poisen is my main weapon. if I can't incap with it why do I even bother with it. If it goes live I'm dropping CM and if I can't find a more interesting class to play I'm dropping the game too.

This fixes a symptom and not the problem. The only issue with mind poison incapping is the fact that it can not be healed. With no way to heal mind, Mind poison becomes leaps and bounds more powerful then the other types.

So add a mind heal. Problem solved. Give it to a doctor, or some other advanced profession and the Mind Poison will no longer be such an issue.It's not the CM professions fault that this part of the combat system was ill thought out, so why should they have to suffer for it?

~Cero

I know those of you that don't like this change (and some of you that are going to just complain at any nerf regardless of details) are unhappy. I know and can see that you are hitting Zarlor and Kavedawg for it. I think you should really be directing this at me. I'm the one who's put up posts supporting the need for downward changes to our class...on this forum and others. I'd be happy to discuss alternatives and specific solutions, but the status quo for us is no longer tenable. You want to argue or be mad, that's fine. But feel free to start directing some of it at me...especially if you're willing to get beyond the hate and actually discuss the merits of this fit, and the state of our class in general.

We are a combat class, but not on the same par with Pistoleers, etc. We're a hybrid. And not a hybrid of combat disciplines (BH, Commando), but rather a hybrid derived from a medical. It is ridiculous to think that we should have the best damage healing abilities in the game and combat abilities on par with pure combat classes like pistoleer/carbineer/rifleman, etc. No class should be first order stochastic dominant. Not us, not anyone. Those of you in the 'no nerf' camp must argue why we should have this.

Yes, we have combat abilities. Yes we take ranged support. This grants us some ability...it opens the door. But I have yet to see anyone on any of these threads put forth a convincing argument as to why we should have combat abilities on par with any pure combat class. To those who don't like this change, you must successfully make a case on two core fronts: Why should we have this power (given our others and in relation to pure combat classes) and how else would incap chicken fixes be implemented.

I simply have yet to see a compelling argument on this joint pair, and am ready to discuss and even support anyone that can constructively put forth one. I am happy to see a few people here actually dissenting in a constructive manner...but I dont' think a successful rebuttal has appeared yet.

Likewise, I have yet to see anyone put forth a cohesive argument as to why CMs don't rule in PvP now. To those of you who are merely MCM...you can invest in Pistoleer and have your combat ability. This is a nerf primarily against MD/MCM PvP soloists....and as one I support it. I win the overwhelming majority of PVP battles now, and I should not. I win nearly every time in solos against even Bounty Hunters, and solo PvP should be their speciality. To really defend against this someone needs to argue why we should be able to do what we currently can...and I'm becoming increasingly convinced that such an argument does not exist...though I'm still looking to hear it.

With the pending changes now to CH, this issue of poison/disease is beyond just us. The +1 'nerf' hits more than just us but is a limit to the pending powers of the most prevalent class in the game...where if you spend any time on those boards, you are going to see repeated posts of people awaiting the opportunity to "...blacken HAM bars..." This issue is now larger than just CMs.

This will not be the end of 'fixes/nerfs' to CMs, either direct or indirect. More will be coming. That we have the longest range in the game, that we are the only class for whom no craftable (there is some loot) defense to our weapons exists for either PCs or even NPCs, that we have the best accuracy in the game...these are all issues that will be coming to us.

Talk all you want about this backfiring our spurning you to more griefdom. This will only accelerate the next nerf/fix, which with CMs now having poison/disease ability via quenchers/mereks is now inevitable. There is no meaningful resistance to these attacks in the game, and the need to fix that is now on the horizon. You can either chant the no-nerf again and fail, or start to think how how we can find balance and still achieve a niche (right now I'm thinking charcoal or similar armor segmens placed in armor are useful as it forces players to take other weaknesses to grant partial defense). There are others and when this +1 goes live (as ithink it will), we should start discussing them...

To my fellow CMs, I urge those of who continue to adopt a 'no nerf' attitude to rethink your strategy. It has failed every other time it has been used by other classes, and it's failing here. It will fail for us in the future. I have seen 1 successful instance in which a profession base was able to redirect a nerf: Riflemen's T21 weapon. It came not because the whined about no nerfs, but because they battled it on the merits of the case and won.

To get what you want, there needs to be a lot less emotion/whining and a lot more reason/logic.

Jacore still an MD/MCM at heart, even if he's currently an exotic dancer thanks to a Holocron.

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Valkahr wrote:

If the 3 incap and auto death is the problem, why nothave poisons wear off after 2 incaps? If poisons wearing off after 1 incap is too weakbut 3 incaps / death is too strong, wouldn't 2 incaps seem like a reasonable compromise?

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I think that would be a much worse solution. (And truthfully the more we discuss this the more strongly i am starting to lean towards like the no-incap thing.) In that way Incap becomes the de facto "cure" for poisons. The issue is not with the number of incaps, but with the realtive strenghts involved. Death from poison, in whatever manner, percumably is considered too strong of an effect. But Incap removing poisons, even just 2 incaps doing it, is too weak of a solution, devaluing poisons and the duration attribute of poisons. It also devalues Doctor Cure Poison abilities as well. So personally I don't think that would really be a better fix.

That being said, however, I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand. I think I'd have to see it in action first to make any real decision on it. But I think this would be a worse solution.

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Why not give doctors the ability to innoculate players. Maybe while innoculated you could have poisons stop at +1 HAM as it is on test, but if they weren't innoculated it would work as it currently does.

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The innoculation idea gets passed around on the Doc forum a lot and has a good amount of merit. However making it only be effective by simply preventing incap is far too weak for the same reasons I think that not allowing incap isn't that big of a deal. If all my innoculation does is to prevent someone from going incap from a poison, then why would I really bother wasting all the resources and time to do that when even the tiniest bit of damage will drop them anyways? I think I would rather just heal them up or cure the poison instead.

Or you could add those 2 suggestions together. Poisons stop at +1 HAM for an innoculated player. If the player wasn't innoculated, the poison would wear off after the second incap.

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Since I'm not too fond of either of those solutions for reasons stated, I also don't feel that combining these would be much of a solution either. Or at least certainly not a better solution than just doing no-incap to begin with.

You could also add in a doctor crafted, self only administered temporary cure poison that anyone with modest medic skills could use.

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I can already tell you the Doc response to this. No way! As it is the medics are pretty split on giving away Stim As for folks to use, despite the relative weakness of such a thing in the hands of someone without Injury Treatment and Treament Speed skills. Giving away an Advanced Profession skill to be used in the hands of anyone would raise a far bigger Mob of angry players than the curent issue we are talking about has raised amongst CMs. Docs would definitely see that as a pretty big nerf.

If AE doctor cure poisons aren't in the works, they should be.

Agreed. But I also think this has nothing to do with the incap-dance problem and, as such, isn't really relavant as a viable fix for that.

In all, though, offering alternatives,I think, puts us on a good track. This stuff DOES get seen (or we've been promised that it does, at any rate.)

(Sorry it took so long to get this reponse in.I actually wrote one last night, but the forums ate it and after that it was time for me to go to bed. )

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EveningShadow wrote:

This fixes a symptom and not the problem. The only issue with mind poison incapping is the fact that it can not be healed. With no way to heal mind, Mind poison becomes leaps and bounds more powerful then the other types.

So add a mind heal. Problem solved. Give it to a doctor, or some other advanced profession and the Mind Poison will no longer be such an issue.It's not the CM professions fault that this part of the combat system was ill thought out, so why should they have to suffer for it?

~Cero

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