Combat Medic Archive
Thread: Action, reaction, and why combat medics are overpowered
jfang wrote:
Another issue I just though of is that I do not believe there is enough SP for a master bounty hunter to pick up 4000 doctor. SioBabble and TsunamiKata, how would you suggest a bounty hunter go about PvP combat (especially considering that as I understand Star Wars mythos, bounty hunters are by nature solitary fighters who hunt other people), seeing how they can't really "adapt"?
How did I get pulled into a "nerf combat medic" discussion? These really do sneak up frequently on this forum...
/scold self
Well, an MBH obviously CAN'T pick up any doctor. Not enough SP to pull it off. An MBH has to master two starter profs just to get to novice.
BTW, this is by design.
But, the BH has his own content, which is indeed focused on solitary fighting. If he or she is going to get involved in group PvP (and that's what is required to be succesful in the GCW) they're going to need to hang out with some carebear types to heal them up.
The whole idea of this game is interdependency, and this is what the FPS mentality crowd cannot get past. There is no one "uber" template outside of Jedi for combat. Each one has its strength and weaknesses, and players are going to have to accept that the only way to compensate for the weaknesses is to rely on another player.
SioBabble wrote:
jfang wrote:
Another issue I just though of is that I do not believe there is enough SP for a master bounty hunter to pick up 4000 doctor. SioBabble and TsunamiKata, how would you suggest a bounty hunter go about PvP combat (especially considering that as I understand Star Wars mythos, bounty hunters are by nature solitary fighters who hunt other people), seeing how they can't really "adapt"?
How did I get pulled into a "nerf combat medic" discussion? These really do sneak up frequently on this forum...
/scold self
Well, an MBH obviously CAN'T pick up any doctor. Not enough SP to pull it off. An MBH has to master two starter profs just to get to novice.
BTW, this is by design.
But, the BH has his own content, which is indeed focused on solitary fighting. If he or she is going to get involved in group PvP (and that's what is required to be succesful in the GCW) they're going to need to hang out with some carebear types to heal them up.
The whole idea of this game is interdependency, and this is what the FPS mentality crowd cannot get past. There is no one "uber" template outside of Jedi for combat. Each one has its strength and weaknesses, and players are going to have to accept that the only way to compensate for the weaknesses is to rely on another player.
Pilai wrote:
SioBabble wrote:
Pilai wrote:
Did you ever think that maybe people didn't WANT to get doctor? That maybe they should be able to pick and choose their own skills without having to worry that they absolutely NEED x or y? That they shouldn't HAVE to get anything that isn't a prerequisite for what they DO want?
Oh, cry me a river, broken uber template boy. This is exactly what I'm talking about.
You forgot about CMs, and you're paying the price. Don't go on a raid without one of those "carebears" you so obviously disdain.
You, my friend, are a fool. I didn't "forget" about CMs. My "broken uber template" is Master Doctor/Master CM. The point is I shouldn't have to adjust my "broken uber template" for JUST CMs. Every single class has ups and downs. Yours is the only one that FORCES people to do certain things to have a chance in fighting them. You are saying that EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN THE GAME should have doctor 4X4X to have a chance against you. If you don't see that that is obscenely out of hand, then you will NEVER be able to see that your profession is as overpowered as they come.
I'm not saying this because I've been taken out by poison and I'm bitter, I'm saying this because it is the absolute TRUTH. I absolutely ABHOR the fact that I can solo groups of 10+ combat professions. Honestly, its notlike it's easy, but unless they have 5 doctors (or a CM of their own to get rid of my mind)they are ALL going down. Its disgusting to me, and it should be to you as well. But wait, you WANT to be able to step on people. You WANT to have the power that makes the game not fun for others. Well take it, you can have it. I cannot WAIT until the developers nerf the sheeeit out of CM. It will improve the game 1000 fold. And if people like you quit because of it? Well then that makes it Christmas rather than just a regular holiday. Same goes to you Adapt or Die boy.
Excuseme?
You're a doc and you're complaining about CM attacks?
Do you know about those disease and poison cures you can craft? How about the disease and poison resistant foods? Is the fact that composite doesn't stop this attack the real issue here? OMG, people are VULNERABLE to these attacks if they don't prepare for them!
Next you'll be telling me that dancers without combat skills should be expected to prevail against TKMs.
Look, if the FPS crowd can't handle it, tough. If they panic when they get hit by a poison or a disease, tough. I've got as much sympathy for them as I have for someone who dies when confronted by a CH controlled rancor. There are ways to counter CM attacks, but they require preparation. They require intelligence. They require a recognition that there ARE no invulnerable uber templates out there for most players.
Get over it, guys. You won't win all the time. I certainly don't expect to. I expect to toss a few bombs at people and die, quickly, once I've been identified as the threat that I am, because I've got a lot of SP tied up to be able to toss those terrible poisons and diseases and still be able to ride around on a savage humbaba.
Message Edited by SioBabble on 04-22-2004 02:59 PM
Pilai wrote:
Too bad Rifleman/CM/Docs (obviously not master of all 3 at once)don't have to rely on other players, huh? They have a combat profession, the abiltiy to heal poison/disease, the ability to buff, and the ability to dish out poison/disease. Where is their weakness?
Three words: No defense stacking.
A TKM can take them out in about three hits. Cause a state change. No problem. They can't keep their mind pool protected forever, no matter how much brandy they guzzle down. Some heavy swordsman hits them with a power hammer, and they're waking up in a cloning facility. Because any CM will use chef buffs to augment their mind first, not to defend against state changes, a melee player (or anyone with state change attacks) can render them hors d'combat if they keep their wits about them.
However, if they're part of a team that is coordinated and is thoroughly versed in the strengths and weaknesses of each member, and how to cover for each other, they'll get through against a team that does not. CMs and docs get priority on rescue on the battlefield if they get gummed up, with good reason.
Message Edited by SioBabble on 04-22-2004 04:18 PM
Actually, putting cure poison at Novice Medic wouldn't even be that bad. You'd still need to got up the +use tree to be able to use any decent packs, and the best you could do without being a doctor would probably be something that requires 3 or more hits to cure a C poison.
jfang wrote:
TsunamiKata, just to be clear, you suggest that a large portion of PvP players devote 91 SP (to use the best medicines, which you need to counter the best poisons, 4040 docat 106 SP - the 15 SP they would use for novice medic anyway), simply in order to "not be a liability"? I'm not necessarily saying you are right or wrong, just that being "forced" to spend more than 1/3 of your SP on an otherwise unused skill is what many people view as unreasonable.
I personally believe that expecting people to use 15 SP for medic to counter something is reasonable. Even maybe spending 29 points for something like 0040 medic would be reasonable. However, I personally think that 106 skill points to counter a single, specalized threat is a little unreasonable. I would suggest a partial cure at a mid medic level (not a full doctor cure, mind you), but that is a differentconversation for a different thread.However, if you believe that it is reasonable to have everybody pick up doctor, there is not very much we can do to convince each other.
Incidentally, I haven't seen very many responses to my original post, commenting that people agreed or disagreed with my analysis of the current environment (and implications thereof). Do people have any thoughts on it?
Not only that.....I am a MCM/4440 Doc/0002 rifleman. I apply poison, disease and then headshot as my normal tactic. But against a Brandied opponent (1900 mind), I still need to stay alive for 30+ seconds before I have a prayer of taking anyone down. The biggest mistake people make is running away instead of charging me. Because I break like glass.
SioBabble wrote:
Pilai wrote:
Too bad Rifleman/CM/Docs (obviously not master of all 3 at once)don't have to rely on other players, huh? They have a combat profession, the abiltiy to heal poison/disease, the ability to buff, and the ability to dish out poison/disease. Where is their weakness?
Three words: No defense stacking.
A TKM can take them out in about three hits. Cause a state change. No problem. They can't keep their mind pool protected forever, no matter how much brandy they guzzle down. Some heavy swordsman hits them with a power hammer, and they're waking up in a cloning facility. Because any CM will use chef buffs to augment their mind first, not to defend against state changes, a melee player (or anyone with state change attacks) can render them hors d'combat if they keep their wits about them.
However, if they're part of a team that is coordinated and is thoroughly versed in the strengths and weaknesses of each member, and how to cover for each other, they'll get through against a team that does not. CMs and docs get priority on rescue on the battlefield if they get gummed up, with good reason.
Message Edited by SioBabble on 04-22-2004 04:18 PM
D3st0r wrote:
Constantly dieing, cloning, zerging and TEF'ing
under good circumstances
The problem....And the cure, in your own post.
Why notcry for a nerf to "Constantly dieing, cloning, zerging and TEF'ing" and leave CMs alone? Why would you ever want to present a CM with "good circumstances"? I don't know where you learned your tactics, but when I throw poison at competant opponents, I rarely hit more than 3 or 4, and their doctors usually have them cured before the first tic.
But I'm not here to teach tactics. I'm tired of it. All I know is that when I PVPed with a group of 20 people who knew what they were doing, including 2 doctors, we never seemed to have much trouble with CMs. A lot of those people have left SWG forgames with better PVP, and I find myself teaching people all over again.
Anyway, I digress.
If we get the same 1.5 damage multiplier that everyone else gets,and an attack thatcan incap, 75% is fine with me.
More than likely, none of this will happen. What likely will happen, is that mind will be healable with stims when HAM is reworked. That should shut everybody up, or at least you would think.
Pilai wrote:
I can just imagine the first few week bounty hunters trying to tell people "Just get some defense to knockdown by getting pistoleer or TKA. Its not OUR fault the developers made an insanely powerfull move that takes the fun out of the game for everyone else." (The original underhand shot knocked you down for 30 seconds if anyone remembers)
Your point is about the mostuseless, thoughtless,disgustingone made EVER as to why CMs shouldn't be nerfed. Maybe they shouldn't be nerfed, but its NOT because "you should get doctor". Did you ever think that maybe people didn't WANT to get doctor? That maybe they should be able to pick and choose their own skills without having to worry that they absolutely NEED x or y? That they shouldn't HAVE to get anything that isn't a prerequisite for what they DO want?
There is not one other profession in the game that MAKES other people get skills to have any chance whatsoever in fighting, so why should CM be different? You have no reason behind this statement other than "I want to be better than everyone else". Imagine if commando's could do an area flame DOTattack from 90m (OK, I know I'm going to hear about this one, so say even 64m). "If you can't heal your own flames, you're a liability to me. Adapt or die." Sounds real fair, huh?
Sure, don't get doctor, but don't come on to the board and **edit**. Live with the consequence of not be able to heal your own poison/disease.
And regarding to that flame part, yeah it does sound fair, that's why I'm a master CM and a master doctor. I can cure what I deliver. If you can't, then you're still a liability. So adapt or die.
Pilai wrote:
Did you ever think that maybe people didn't WANT to get doctor? That maybe they should be able to pick and choose their own skills without having to worry that they absolutely NEED x or y? That they shouldn't HAVE to get anything that isn't a prerequisite for what they DO want?
Oh, cry me a river, broken uber template boy. This is exactly what I'm talking about.
You forgot about CMs, and you're paying the price. Don't go on a raid without one of those "carebears" you so obviously disdain.
D3st0r wrote:
Constantly dieing, cloning, zerging and TEF'ing
The problem, then, itseems, is not with CMs per se, but with this aspect of PvP in SWG.
Which I could not agree more with.
If you die on a battlefield, youshould beOUT OF THE FIGHT. Some mechanism needs to be present toprevent the idiocy of an FPS game where death in combat is an inconvenience, where you reappear instantly somwhere else and then run back to the place where you died and you proceed to go after the guy who did you in. Then he goes through the same process. Like the classic Star Trek episode "The Day of the Dove".
Which is why PvP in SWG has very little meaning. Zerg fests are fun in their own way, but they undermine the gravity of combat and turn it into a Loony Toon.
CMs being "overpowered" are a symptom of a broader problem. Nerfing CM will only switch the profession that zergs you.