Combat Medic Archive
Thread: MCM Vs Jedi and High Level Mobs
RebRifle wrote:
Most jedi grind so fast that they don't know how to use there templates, so they sux at any form of combat except killing wookies
mickolakis wrote:
If we could turn the flame fest off please people. These aren't the Jedi or BH forums and I hate it when interesting posts get deleted because of flaming.I’d just like to answer some of TatterSalad’s points from the deleted posts in what I hope is a reasonable way.
"Unfortunately I didn't get to read the post before it got deleted. But I think the idea behind the post was to say hey, if any prof in this game regardless of template is going to solo higher end creatures it should be jedi. They put more time and effort into achieving what they have. That is not to say that it doesn't take time and effort to achieve a full template non-jedi char. However, the majority of the population is not jedi so the devs need to satisfy the ability for players to have content without groups. I think this topic would have never been brought up if Krayts and NS didn't drop the highly needed pearls/crystals for their weapons. Reason being is that because their are so many non-jedi in the game they just camp the areas that spawn these creatures and harvest them all day. Making it near impossible for a jedi to kill one and loot the items they need. This forces the jedi to purchase the crystals/pearls from the non-jedi at outragous prices that most can not afford. This creates an unbalance in the game in damage/sec outputs of weapons."
I can understand that Jedi need the drops form the Krayts for their sabres. However in my experience when we’ve organised krayt hunts with our guild the vast majority of people camping the kraits have been Jedi who want the pearls. Before I was an MCM I was a master ranger and I admit I would go over to the krayt graveyard to hunt krayts with a view to selling the tissues or pearls. The whole of the ranger template is geared towards being able to hunt high level mobs solo and sell what they drop or what I can harvest. I was master ranger master carbineer and with that template I didn’t even have enough points to get novice medic. If there were Jedi there hunting krayts I would wait until they selected a krayt and then hunt a different one. The problem was I would get hate tells telling me to get lost quite or a few times or Jedi trying to poach my kill. I invested a lot of time into becoming master ranger and a lot of my skill points were held up in master scout. The whole template was geared towards one thing - hunting , a master ranger is supposed to be a better hunter than any other profession, not a bigger damage dealer but a better hunter of animals.
"The object behind being jedi is supposed to be (in my opinion) that the character is self-sufficinet. Meaning that they have the ability to solo higher end creatures/npc's without having to group and depend upon others. Which in return would mean that non-jedi would need to depend on other to solo higher end creatures/npc's. When I jedi sees a full templated non-jedi do things like solo krayts, etc. It basically says in a way that, "All the extra effort that I put into being a jedi, was wasted because I could have achieved greatness and self sufficiency with a 2 week or less grind."
A Jedi has not necessarily put in more effort than any other template. I know people who started when I did and in the same time I have mastered a number of different professions all requiring different skills and playing styles and none of which can be mastered by using macros or AFK grinding.
The objective of being a Jedi from what I have read is not to be self sufficient, that is why you are given an alt, it is your alt that makes your money, your Jedi is a warrior. The reason why a Jedi is 1.5x more powerful is for them to make a difference in the GCW. Anyone you see hunting high level mobs probably has a double master in one ranged profession plus another support profession (like MCM) and another tree in one other. We are constantly changing our skill bases to find one that we are most comfortable with and as such have probably put in as much effort as a Jedi has.
"Bottom line non-Jedi should be able to do some things that a full template Jedi can do, but soloing higher level creatures/npc's should not be one of them. But I would also say that having a group of 2 should be equivalent to taking down higher end mobs that Jedi can currently solo. I know I am going to get flamed for this post, but it is what it is."
My bottom line is that any combat profession should be able to bring down I high level mob/npc if they have the skill and patience, they may not be able to do it as quick as a Jedi but they can still do it. Your success is not based on your template but on how well you know your template. MCM requires you to get within 10m of your target to apply your rebuffs and 35m to apply your DoTs. This requires skill and timing and with krayts all too often end up with a trip to the cloner.
"One last thing, I don't want to hear that being jedi is all about "playing the roll" of the saga. Most players don't become jedi to "play the saga role." They do it because they know with a little hard work and dedication they can have something that is supposed to be a step above the rest."
I agree that a master JedI should be a step above the rest, a master sabre should be better than a master swords and a master healer should be better than a master Doc. But someone who only has 4xxx in master healer should not the better than someone who is MCM or Mdoc. a double master jedi should be able to wipe the floor with another non-jedi template IF he knows how to use it.
Peace an' love y'all
Message Edited by mickolakis on 07-13-2005 01:47 PM
This is an asumption that you are making about the majority of the jedi community. This is not true, for most. Yes, there are some that have and are currently doing this. This disucssion does not pertain to them. This discussion has to with why non-jedi profs are soloing high end mobs, that some jedi can't. Seeing is that jedi is supposed to be 1.5x better than any non-jedi prof.this does not make sense why. Noobs excluded from this discussion, only elder templates please.
Stjerne wrote:
Greetings,
I have a jedi as well so I thought I'd chime in here.
Where did the 1.5x's come from??? I feel that with my jedi I am a LITTLE better than SOME players. I don't have a problem with that.
I beleive what is really at the core of this discusssion iswhy on earth did the devs put so many valuable drops on one creature!! The result is what we have had since jedi appeared, (actually well before that) and that is tremendous amount of grief on Tattooine. Yes the jedi really need those pearls but you know what, the non-jedi players need those tissues.
A lot of assumptions in this thread is based on the assumption that more grinding time='I win'. SorryI don't agree with that at all, for various reasons already stated. Plus the fact that what a previous poster said about having an alpha class in an MMORPG is a death sentence to that game, so it's not going to ever happen.
Also I beleive the gap in numbers between jedi and non-jedi, while it will never be equal, is shrinking...and quickly
MastemaBrother1 wrote:
TatterSalad wrote:
This is an asumption that you are making about the majority of the jedi community. This is not true, for most. Yes, there are some that have and are currently doing this. This disucssion does not pertain to them. This discussion has to with why non-jedi profs are soloing high end mobs, that some jedi can't. Seeing is that jedi is supposed to be 1.5x better than any non-jedi prof.this does not make sense why. Noobs excluded from this discussion, only elder templates please.
/sniff /sniff
someone's trying to start a lil fire?
sorry man, I just dont like your attitude
To go on with the discussion (wich I think is going nowhere), The system is there, just play with it, and dont assume that since you worked hard getting your uber template it should own eveything and be better than anything else.
*sighs*
Thanku for a bit of common sense. I'm sorry to throw lighter fluid in here but PLEASE STOP THIS!
Perhaps the reason some Jedi are unable to solo higher level creatures/mobs is because they haven't had the time (or the patience) to learn their craft, ever thought of that?Or that the template they have chosen is not as good at that type of thing, or are Jedi supposed to be good at everything?
There may be people out there who are non-Jedi but may have worked out, through trial and error and time, a way to find a brilliantprofession tree to enable them to solo high level mobs and I say, good luck to them for working hard to discover this (saying this, I have yet to meet anyone who can solo a Krayt, I know not one person who can do this!!)
Also I am getting extremely annoyed with this strange assumption that some Jedi have that they are more worthy than other professions, we all have to work to get to our chosen profession(s) so please put up with it or drop Jedi and go do something else. I myself had to grind for several hours each and every day to get my MCM and it still took me ruddy weeks and weeks and weeks, but I was happy to do so and feel I am no better than anyone else. Again, this is not Jedi Wars, this is SWG.
I have to buy things for myself,buy new armour,pay my house rent, feed my pets, so what do I do? I go and work my butt off having to take 10k missions at a time to EARN my credits so I can spend them. (plus I lurve robbing the dead. LOL!) Its called playing the game. 
So if you can't get a crystal, go earn some cash like the rest of us non uber professions and buy one from someone who has one for sale, I've seen them going from 200 credits to 20,000, shop around!
Just one thing, I'm a MCH because I like to play solo, so can I please have the ability to kill big bad dragons as well?? (just thought I'd ask) 
TatterSalad wrote:
Which is fine with me, then make all requirements equal for jedi and the amount xp required equal.
Brainplay wrote:
There should be no template that is intentionally made to be 1.5x more powerful than other templates in an MMORPG. PERIOD!
I whole heartedly agree with this. They should have let this be a regular profession to choose from the beginning and given it a place with the rest of us.
There are few "veteren" players in this game now thanks to the CU. We all had to start learning our templates from scratch when the CU hit. There is still nothing to justify having a 1.5x more powerful template than any other template in an MMORPG. No amount of grinding can justify it.
The real funny part is that if they dont want to deal with the "rigors of being a jedi" they can always fall back on their unlocked alt character.
TatterSalad wrote:
This is an asumption that you are making about the majority of the jedi community. This is not true, for most. Yes, there are some that have and are currently doing this. This disucssion does not pertain to them. This discussion has to with why non-jedi profs are soloing high end mobs, that some jedi can't. Seeing is that jedi is supposed to be 1.5x better than any non-jedi prof.this does not make sense why. Noobs excluded from this discussion, only elder templates please.
/sniff /sniff
someone's trying to start a lil fire?
sorry man, I just dont like your attitude
To go on with the discussion (wich I think is going nowhere), The system is there, just play with it, and dont assume that since you worked hard getting your uber template it should own eveything and be better than anything else.
Just their striengths are not so much pvm as pvp. Jedi are at the moment the end all in any pvp event. If there is a base raid the side with the most jedi will win 99% of the time and we all know it.
It would be drasticly unbalancing if jedi could walk thrue everything in the game and be the end all in pvp. Heck just deleat the other classes and only have jedi. Then we wouldent need to bother with balancing anything anymore or crafting for that mater.
Brainplay wrote:
TatterSalad wrote:
Which is fine with me, then make all requirements equal for jedi and the amount xp required equal.
Brainplay wrote:
There should be no template that is intentionally made to be 1.5x more powerful than other templates in an MMORPG. PERIOD!
I whole heartedly agree with this. They should have let this be a regular profession to choose from the beginning and given it a place with the rest of us.
There are few "veteren" players in this game now thanks to the CU. We all had to start learning our templates from scratch when the CU hit. There is still nothing to justify having a 1.5x more powerful template than any other template in an MMORPG. No amount of grinding can justify it.
The real funny part is that if they dont want to deal with the "rigors of being a jedi" they can always fall back on their unlocked alt character.
To use a comparison:
it takes years of schooling to become a doctor. lots of time effort ect
It takes 6 weeks to finish the navy corpsman school. (I think that's what my buddy said, anyway, its less than 13 weeks)
if both people start out at the same time, who will be a better doc/medic after te person who went to med school first graduates?
I garentee its the corpsman who has spent the last 8 years dragging dead and dying marines out of places and patching them up with a bag of guaze, some needle and thread, a few sticks that he picked up, and a prayer.
I just wanted to say that it is very possible to solo a Krayt Ancient, it's just very time-consuming and not as profitable as fighting them in a group.
I myself can solo Krayt Ancients (or at least, my old template could), but the biggest problem is how buggy the game is. I can get a Krayt Ancient down to half health without taking a scratch myself, and suddenly it will just vanish. How irritating is that? Or -Retreating- will pop up over its head, even though I'm ~25-30 meters away from it, blasting it with my flamethrower. It will then lose ALL debuffs and DOTs, regen back to full almost instantly, and run away at super speed.
I have no attachments at all, my weapons are worth less than 30k, my armor I bought cheap, and I only have a bit of Spiced Tea (+184 Mind Regen) to help me. I imagine the DWB and the Corvette are MUCH more difficult.
EDIT: I'd like to add that I think Jedi should require the same amount of experience as everyone else does, and be no more powerful than any of us. They should either be rare, OR they balanced with other professions. As it stands, there are no disadvantages to unlocking Jedi- you get a free second character (which is the only reason I'm doing it), you get to have a much more powerful base compared to other professions (and don't whine that they aren't- the only reason I was able to beat Jedi as a BH/CM was because all that I fought were idiots who did not understand the game. If they actually knew how to play Jedi, I would have been owned badly.)
Message Edited by DarkNexus1014 on 07-16-2005 03:46 PM
Cpl_Fisher wrote:
To use a comparison:
it takes years of schooling to become a doctor. lots of time effort ect
It takes 6 weeks to finish the navy corpsman school. (I think that's what my buddy said, anyway, its less than 13 weeks)
if both people start out at the same time, who will be a better doc/medic after te person who went to med school first graduates?
I garentee its the corpsman who has spent the last 8 years dragging dead and dying marines out of places and patching them up with a bag of guaze, some needle and thread, a few sticks that he picked up, and a prayer.
Unless you ground out jedi killing krayts/gorax, you lack the experience of big game hunts. That'sthe experience thatcounts, not how much xp it took to fill up your trees.
I think I will take my chances with the Doc. that just graduated. The corpsman can certainly get me out of harms way better than the doc can,but once I get to safety my odds are better with the doc. The corpsman is specialized in treatment in trama situations, where as the doc. specializes in treatment and recovery of the victim. Some docs even have trama experience too.
As far as your comparison of grinding out jedi goes, it doesn't matter what you hunt, the point is that you get the experience doing it. Now unfortunatly there are some jedi that are AFK grinding. But for the rest of us, we just want some reward for going above and beyond what is required for the average prof.
TatterSalad wrote:
I am not confusing the two, they have a direct corrolation with each other. The more xp required at a slower rate means that you need to put more time into gaining the xp. Because you are required to put more time into gaining the xp, this means that you invested more effort (not necessarly physical but mental).
The point behind the original post was to show that when you put more into something you should get more out, not the same as someone that did less in terms of dedicatoin. You don't go to work and do less than someone else and expect to get promoted to a higher level do you?
I understand what you're "trying" to say bud
What I'm saying is grinding out a Jedi, ATM, is hardly what I would consider worthy of an "Alpha" profession. Ok, if you do it the way the DEVs intended then yeah, it takes more actual effort... But most guys here are computer savvy... They know where and how to "acquire" the info to super-grind their Jedi to full template in less time and with less effort then I put into mastering my first profession back in September of 03'
TatterSalad wrote:
As much as you may not want to agree with me. Jedi actually NEED the pearls/crystals that come off of high end mobs. Like I have said in other posts, I personally think they need to remove these items from the game. Non-jedi are not required to go hunt and kill high end mobs just so they can have a good weapon to compete with. Why should jedi?
Because.... Oh.... Maybe cause Jedi are suppose to be challenging
TatterSalad wrote:
Just because this game is a MMORPG has nothing to do with depending upon others to have success, especially at the level of the "Alpha" class.I also don't know why everyone is stuck on this, "you have an alt" thing. So what, the majority of credits made in this game come from missions and as a previsous poster stated, "Jedi are Warriors" which means they are a fighting class with special abilities.
You might want to look into KOTOR. Jedi or not, Alpha class or not, in an MMORPG no one should be self-sufficient. Period
TatterSalad wrote:
LOL, you apparently have never grinded a jedi before. If you have you would know that it takes a long time compared to completing your basic elite prof. template. If you think different then I said to hear that. The numbers alone will show you that.
Yes, the village is time capped so that adds to the "length" of time but I wouldnt say actual effort. Yes, it takes much more exp to advance per Jedi box compared to a regular profession *but* too many Jedi (not all) take the easy Kash /afk grinding route.
When one makes a full template Jedi w/o even being at the keyboard... Well lets just say I'm not going to give any credit to those folks for "effort".
TatterSalad wrote:
As I have posted in many many other posts, I don't have a problem with Jedi being non-self sufficient, no better than all of the full template non-jedi, etc. If and only if the amount of xp required to achieve full template and the xp gained per kill was equivalent to non-jedi profs.
I'm sorry man, that is just a selfish way of thinking. For the extra "effort" Jedi put into being a Jedi they are rewarded above and beyond what a regular elite profession gets. And when they reinstate the Jedi trial system there will likely be even more of a reward.
However, no matter how much effort any players puts into their toon, no one should EVER be 100% self-sufficient. EVER. Furthermore, when one does unlock Jedi one gets a free second character slot! If one feels some other "reg" can do what they cant do they can roll their 2nd free toon to whatever suits their fancy!
Message Edited by SomeUser on 07-21-2005 12:27 PM
Vezek