Combat Medic Archive
Thread: What is the main problem you have with the +1 change
Kavedawg wrote:
Ok, there have been a lot of posts about how you are against the change but only a few posts explained why you were against the change. For those of you who complained that all dots should be limited to +1 if our poisons were gimped, well all dots are (except the commando flame dot, haven't tested it yet ) Isyour reasoning against the changeone of the reasons below or is it something else? please limit your flames to a minimum. I am just looking for some civil disscussion on the matter
- All other combat professions can cause an incap with their main weapon
- CM's will no longer be able to gain the faction they deserve for their role in PvP
- CM's should be able to go head to head with commandos and bounty hunters and sometimes win, this change will make the CM loseALL of the time.
- Thislooks as if it werea band-aid fix and does nothing to address the true problems that exist with the CM profession
- CM's should bethe chemical warfare expert that their tag labels them to be, this change totaly undermines the profession's true role
I am always looking for more input. Again please try to maintain a low tone while posting, I do understand that a lot of you have strong feelings about this change. If you do have suggestions on how you would like things to be changed, please post them and give as much detail as possible.
I'd posted why I disagree with this change quite a few times already. However, to address the points you made:
Yes to the point that every professions mainform of attack can incap except combat medics. If all dots are not to incapthan I am ok with this change as long as combat medics get a weapon (I'd prefer a biological weapon) associated with the class that can be considered the classes primary weapon.
Yes to the point on faction. However, the fix to this and to corpse looting rights is just to associate all damage from all dots to the person who applied the dot (or that person's owner if its a creature pet dot).
Yes to combat medics having a change against BHs and commados. Ibelieve all combat professions should have a chance to win against all over combat professions. I'm not saying it has to be 50/50 as I think skill, preparation and circumanstances all play a part. However, a CM should have a shot just as any other combat class should. If not, there is no point to being anything but a BH or commando when it comes to PVP. The devs are adding in bonuses to riflemen, pistoleers and carbineers to make the playing field more even so I believe they feel the same way.
Yes to this being a band-aid fix. This is my main contention with this nerf. It does nothing to address any of the issues it is supposed to correct directly. It only masks or glosses over the problems without fixing them. This is always a bad idea for a fix, but especially when it is in the form of a nerf. The problems may later be corrected, but the nerf remain.
Yes to this change undermining a key role for the combat medic. The reason I, as a MD/MCM picked up CM was for the poisons first and ranged, area healing second. For those that aren't doctors, the healing may play a bigger reason as to their professional choice, but for me it was the poisons first and foremost.
I'll state again, I do not want poisons overpowered. If poisons are too powerful, for any reason, in PVP they should be tweaked / nerfed. However,I just don't want them nerfed needlessly with a band-aid fix that does not directlyaddress any of the issues it is supposed to solve.
To address Zarlor's point about avoiding the incap dance while also not dropping poisons on incap I can think of several solutions.
First, the easiest to implement would be to apply the no incap nerf to just mind. Mind is the only unhealable (or almost unhealable - now that CMs may get a limited form of mind heal) pool in the game. So if you remove that, and with stim Bs being so powerful, everyone can stop health and action from repeatedly incapping. Unless of course, the person is poisoned inboth mind and health or mind andaction. However, if that is the case anyone else could simply use stim Bs to help the poisoned player. This makes only the solo player susceptible to the incap dance.
Second, would be to allow players access to a temporary, self only poison cure. This poison cure would be made by doctors. It would be usable by either everyone or those with some medic skills. They could apply this temporary self only poison cure to delay the poison from working for a set time. This would allow them to then find a doctor to get cured, or give them more time to heal / regen themselves back up.
Third, you could reduce the strength of the poison after each incap. Maybe it drops by 50% or 300 dmg per tick, whichever is greater, after each incap(or whatever % or amount is necessary). This waymost poisons would only incap twice. For example, a 500 dmg dot would get reduced to 200 dmg after the first incap and then be gone after the second incap. So it avoids the 3 incap / death, but is also stronger than a single incap. It would still allow a poison over 600 ( or whatever amount was deemed balanced ) to possibly incap 3 times (if the final amount of poison left was greater than the players regen rate).
Fourth, you could simply allow poisons to wear off after the second incap. If one incap is too weak but 3 is too strong, maybe 2 incaps is the balance we need?
Personally, I'm for mind not incapping at all, whether its a dot or direct damage. TickTock had a great post on it, but essentially to have 1 pool targettable but not healable leads to imbalances. This is just a symptom of what I feel is a fundamental flaw in the HAM system. Mind should be treated more like mana in EQ. Its a system that works, even if it isn't a radical as having 3 separate (but not equal) pools.
I'd prefer solutions 1 or 2 or both, but am fine with pretty much anything over what is currently on test.
We as a class get acused of griefing too much as is and then they want to give us this? What is this you say well its just the ultimate griefing tool ever.... hmm lets see I poison yourmind with and area and a single poison very quickly your mind taps out and you can do nothing but run and hope to find allies.. mean while I follow after you dropping diseases on all your stats.. cause well I sure cant kill you anymore but I can make you worthless. Yeah this will go over well and while I do undestand its not going tobe easy to set up I do feal that it will cause enough outcry to force an even worse nerf forced down our throats, I mean how often did you really see an imp with 3 at-st's but the thoughtof it sure madeevery cry for a nerf..
my 2 cents
Lageas
RIP
- All other combat professions can cause an incap with their main weapon
This is a no brainer. We are a combat class and as such we need a weapon just the same as the other combat classes.
- CM's will no longer be able to gain the faction they deserve for their role in PvP
This isn't a problem unless our CDEF weapon (assuming we don't have any other combat skill) misses the player we are trying to get the last point of HAM from or can't cause enough damage before the super stat player regens it all.
- CM's should be able to go head to head with commandos and bounty hunters and sometimes win, this change will make the CM loseALL of the time.
The argument that bounty hunters and commandos always make when discussing player character strength is the number of skill points they need. So a Master Combat Medic should be an even fight against a commando and have a 169/217 chance against a master bounty hunter.
- Thislooks as if it werea band-aid fix and does nothing to address the true problems that exist with the CM profession
I have yet to see one single positive reason for this change. In all of your defensive posts about this change not one was a positive reason. I understand that you are afraid of a nerf, but that isn't a positive reason to make this change.
- CM's should bethe chemical warfare expert that their tag labels them to be, this change totaly undermines the profession's true role
We are a combat class. We have disease and poison as our weapons. Making our weapons unable to kill or unable to give us experience, faction and looting rights (as it is now) is not right considering the skill cost needed. If all DOT attacks must be capped at 1 HAM we must be given another weapon certification in exchange. (A weapon that will give us a 169/93 advantage over marksmen professions, brawler professions, a 169/217 shot against a master bounty hunter and an even shot against commandos).
I just wanted to point out that several people on the forums have tested this out and it appears that the damage you do with any particular weapon does, in fact, hit all bars at a ratio of about 80:10:10. That is to say if you shot someone with a pistol and it hit their Health pool and it showed that it did 100 points of damage, then it did 80 points to health, 10 points to action and 10 points to mind. So the pitoleer is not screwed here, he'll still be hitting mind.
Combat-Medic wrote:
[snip]
what of the CM's that are pistoleers, pistoleers don't have a mind shot)... so in effect There is a chance they'd survive because you couldn't do mind damage to take out that 1 point of mind damage.
As a Master Combat Medic and nearly Master Pistoleer the poison stopping at +1 does not bother me too much spam a few stopping shot on them and their going down.... but it will kill off the Master Doc/Master CMs combo
Reachwind wrote:
- CM's will no longer be able to gain the faction they deserve for their role in PvP
This isn't a problem unless our CDEF weapon (assuming we don't have any other combat skill) misses the player we are trying to get the last point of HAM from or can't cause enough damage before the super stat player regens it all.
Since we do have Novice Marksman we can use the next level weapon up from a CDEF, so we are not actually stuck with just CDEFs. (Just wanted to point that out, is all.)
- Thislooks as if it werea band-aid fix and does nothing to address the true problems that exist with the CM profession
I have yet to see one single positive reason for this change. In all of your defensive posts about this change not one was a positive reason. I understand that you are afraid of a nerf, but that isn't a positive reason to make this change.
Well, there is the incap dance problem, whcih is what I beleive this change was meant to address. It does fix that particular problem, IMHO. Now whether or not that particular thing being fixed is a "positive" is apparently up for debate.
But why only our dots not flame and bleeds? If it hits all maybe I could see it but if its just us they are justgiving in to the wines of the masses... I spent a lot of points to get master combat medic as much as any comando did my attacks should be very powerful. I get poisons and long range healingthey get 5 million ways to inflict 1-2k shots in pvp.
Lageas
Master combat medic
Master doctor
ps no I am not leaving my class just because of a stupid nerf I will just stop swaping my points between carbine and artisian.
Austrian wrote:
# CM's should be able to go head to head with commandos and bounty hunters and sometimes win, this change will make the CM lose ALL of the time.
Take that out please. We can heal 20 people at once, we're not supposed to go toe to toe with a commando or a BH and have a 50/50 chance of winning.
Actually, leave it in. Combat medics are an eliteprofession that takes as many skill points to master as commandos andsecond only to BHs. Combat medics are a combat profession. Granted we also heal. However, when you can be 1 shot killed, how does healing help? When you can be hit in the mind pool, which is not healable on production servers (and onlyhealable in a limited form on TC, which may or may not go live) how does that matter?
If BH or commandos automatically win every fight versus any other combat profession, why have those professions allowed to PVP in the first place?
Pistoleers, Rifleman, and Carbineers, not to mention every elite brawler profession needs to stand a chance of winning against all other opponents as well. If not, then there really is no point to have any of thoseprofessions in PVP.
The 2.5 damage multiplier added to commandos was done to weaken the profession. The movement of eyeshot to master BH is being done to weaken the profession. The addition of higher bonuses to pistoleers, rifleman and carbiners are being done to strengthen those professions.
Why are these changesbeing done? Why are commandos and BH being weakened whilepistoleers, rifleman and carbiners are being strengthened?To level the playing field a bit. To ensure that every elite combat profession has a chance against every other one. It doesn't have to be 50/50. However, circumstances, player skill, etc. should be a large factor in who wins a PVP outcome instead of just profession alone.
The devs apparently want player skill and not just profession to determine the outcome of PVP fights. A lot fo players want this as well. Why is it not fair for CMs to be treated in the same manner?
Again, I don't want CMs overpowered. I don't want CMs to win every engagement or even 50/50. However, the current nerf on test is not the correct solution to any of the problems it is supposed to fix and it introduces too many new problems.
I agree with most of what these guys are saying about why this change should not take place so no sense in repeating everyone.
On another note, I say go ahead and send it live in the next patch and you will hear the biggest cry to nerf us yet, because we will then be considered griefers (what's new?)with the new tactics we will employ. Especially with AOE C Disease functioning. Mark these words - this is a huge can of worms about to be opened. I am not totally against it(but poison/disease should be stronger then) but when it will cause cries for further nerfs, then that is where the problems start.
And if this does happen and we are called griefers and a cry to nerf us again arises, will they change it back to the way it was?
SkipDikman wrote:
I agree with most of what these guys are saying about why this change should not take place so no sense in repeating everyone.
On another note, I say go ahead and send it live in the next patch and you will hear the biggest cry to nerf us yet, because we will then be considered griefers (what's new?)with the new tactics we will employ. Especially with AOE C Disease functioning. Mark these words - this is a huge can of worms about to be opened. I am not totally against it(but poison/disease should be stronger then) but when it will cause cries for further nerfs, then that is where the problems start.
And if this does happen and we are called griefers and a cry to nerf us again arises, will they change it back to the way it was?
GIvin the experience I've had with SOE and their mmorpgs, if this goes live it will be hard / impossible to change it back. If it causes further griefing, what usually happens is that they'll heap onfurther nerfsuntil poisonss arenearly useless.
If something is brokenornerfed to near uselessness it gets put on the back burner while things that are considered overpowered get nerfed. If you don't believe this to be the case, look at the number and frequency of changes to professions that are considered overpowered as compared to those that have never worked right since release.
Chefs, DEs and BEs are still waiting to be fixed to work right. Yet how much time and effort has been spent on nerfing professions? CM poison, if nerfed to uselessness, will probably be somewhere behind Chefs,DEs and BEson the waiting list of things to be fixed. Of course, as more things get broken, CM poisons could be moved further and further back.
So if we don't want this change to go through, our only chance is probably now before it hits live servers.
Valkhar,
I forgot to end my comment with "Of course not". But you are absolutely right. It will not get changed back and we will be stuck spending 167 points on what?