Combat Medic Archive

Thread: Thyroid Rupture Comprimise

Ternque01
Fri Aug 12, 2005 8:45 am
#14






SpunkyKuma wrote:
Pikeman's warcry and Smuggler's lowblow are 20 seconds, with 2 minute Thyroid it gives you ALL the time to keep yourself healed with 3 different heals while your target tries hitting you at twice as slow, warcry and lowblow gives you enough time to recover then it's back to normal speed again and 20 seconds isn't that critical.





This is incorrect. Against all of my test subjects, the -40 speed debuff took 25% from my targets' attack speed.


Second. I think the Jedi's Armor Break is MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more effective and powerful than our attack speed debuff.


Nerf Jedi Armor Break!!!!!





Axob Freelight
The non-Jedi are extinct. Their fire has gone out of the universe.
Ternque01
Fri Aug 12, 2005 10:07 am
#15






Die26 wrote:

what i like is the stims that are used to give you 1700 Heals every few secs compared to the 1500 i can do every 6 seconds. TBH the debuff was balanced when I could stack doc buffs and Force speed now it is overpowered I have had CM's with max tapes apply a 50 point speed reduction that is a lot when all i can apply is a +20 force speed. Armour break is not overpowered as you can easily apply 75% armour break reduction with the new slicing. and these items drop from the NPC missions I knwo I have some on my bh alt.



had a great fight with a BH I ran when his mate turned up to stop my stasis. jsut because it pwned his 13 sec paralise lol








First off, Thyroid Rupture enhancers only change the DURATION of the debuff, not the strength as you claim.


Second, the Armor Break Reduction slice provides a 75% CHANCE that an armor break effect will be MITIGATED. The degree of this mitigation is really unknown to me, but it does NOT mean that 75% of the armor break is reduced. I own 8081 energy resist armor sliced to 75% armor break reduction slice. I was hit by a Jedi for almost 1500 damage while I was STANDING UP. I think this should prove my point nicely.


Third, as I have said all throughout this thread and others, a -40 combat speed debuff seems to affect a target's attack speed by ONLY 25% measly percent.


Die26, with your +20 speed and the combat speed enhancing food, you are going to only have your speed reduced by -10, which probably equates to a quarter, or 6% decrease in your attack speed.


Considering that even if my armor mitigates your armor break, you will STILL break my armor at probably 30-70%, which is INCREDIBLY HUGE compared to a PALTRY 6% reduction in attack speed.


I think you need to get a perspective on things before you nerf yet another profession absolutely useless.


Before you retort, please answer if you think that a 25% reduction in attack speed is inbalanced. I want to hear what you have to say. Also remember that intimidate causes a 20% reduction in a target's damage output and that armor break causes a much larger decrease in the ability of people wearing armor to defend against damage.





Axob Freelight
The non-Jedi are extinct. Their fire has gone out of the universe.
Quandry
Fri Aug 12, 2005 1:43 pm
#16



Ternque01 wrote:


SpunkyKuma wrote:
Pikeman's warcry and Smuggler's lowblow are 20 seconds, with 2 minute Thyroid it gives you ALL the time to keep yourself healed with 3 different heals while your target tries hitting you at twice as slow, warcry and lowblow gives you enough time to recover then it's back to normal speed again and 20 seconds isn't that critical.


This is incorrect. Against all of my test subjects, the -40 speed debuff took 25% from my targets' attack speed.

Second. I think the Jedi's Armor Break is MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more effective and powerful than our attack speed debuff.

Nerf Jedi Armor Break!!!!!







Stop saying that 25% crap its totaly wrong. It might slow YOU down that much. it slows your cooldown times. If YOU have no speed or skills it will hurt you a lot.... if you cooldown timer is only equal to 60 (we cant see those numbers) then loosing 40 is a big deal. But if you have 130 loosing 40 dont mean that much at all, expectialy when your alternating shots anyway.



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Ternque01
Fri Aug 12, 2005 2:55 pm
#17

I'm going to conduct a test against a Master Lightsaber Jedi guildmate who has force speed tonight.


I will post my results in this forum so that this non-Jedi skill can remain a useful special. I also very highly look after game balance, too.


Believe me. You will see my numbers soon, and they won't lie.





Axob Freelight
The non-Jedi are extinct. Their fire has gone out of the universe.
Ternque01
Fri Aug 12, 2005 2:57 pm
#18






Quandry wrote:


Stop saying that 25% crap its totaly wrong. It might slow YOU down that much. it slows your cooldown times. If YOU have no speed or skills it will hurt you a lot.... if you cooldown timer is only equal to 60 (we cant see those numbers) then loosing 40 is a big deal. But if you have 130 loosing 40 dont mean that much at all, expectialy when your alternating shots anyway.





Secondly, I get my test numbers from piket and huurton test subjects. Who KNOWS what their attack speed is, but tonight, I will get my hands on a real Jedi so I can come forth with some data that applies to players, particularly those who are crying the nerf on this one =/



Axob Freelight
The non-Jedi are extinct. Their fire has gone out of the universe.
Die26
Fri Aug 12, 2005 5:24 pm
#19


tbh you are speaking out your backside if i do not have the 40 point defbuff speed i can attack evey 2 seconds no issues with it applied i attack every 5 seconds sometimes 6 depending on my move that is more that a 25% reduction. it is more than doubling the time between moves and the last time i checked 25% of2 sec was 0.50 so by your maths instead of attacked every 2 seconds i should attack every 2.5 seonds instead of the 5-6 seconds i am doing with the debuff.


I.E it is overpowered it lasts 2 mins and can more than double my time inbetween attacks Either SOE rebalances the Debuff or they rebalance my attack speed your choice.






Gepa Bow Jedi Knight
Cpl_Fisher
Fri Aug 12, 2005 6:58 pm
#20

1. I do not think you are in a position to give SOE an ultimatum that affects every other SWG customer


2. what is your base speed? a MLS will see a smaller difference than a 0/4/0/4 dabbler (or a combinaton thereoff) becuase a MLS has surpassed the capp of 1 attack every 2 secs.... so they have speed modds to spare once that 40% is factored in, esp if they have tapes.


For example, lets say +100 speed with weapon x caps them at 2 attacks per sec.


a MLS has +132 speed with a LS (including genmelee speed) after thyroid rupture they have an effective speed of 79.2


a 0/4/0/4 LS user has 87 2 handed ls speed including gen melee speed after thyroid rupture there effective speed is 52.2


that's a huge difference....



the math is correct, but I pulled the numbers ou of my rear end.





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Cesare
Fri Aug 12, 2005 7:44 pm
#21

The point of it being a "slow" is that it makes them slower than normal, if they could cancel it with a speed buff it wouldnt really be a useful skill would it now?



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Ternque01
Fri Aug 12, 2005 8:39 pm
#22






Die26 wrote:


tbh you are speaking out your backside if i do not have the 40 point defbuff speed i can attack evey 2 seconds no issues with it applied i attack every 5 seconds sometimes 6 depending on my move that is more that a 25% reduction. it is more than doubling the time between moves and the last time i checked 25% of2 sec was 0.50 so by your maths instead of attacked every 2 seconds i should attack every 2.5 seonds instead of the 5-6 seconds i am doing with the debuff.


I.E it is overpowered it lasts 2 mins and can more than double my time inbetween attacks Either SOE rebalances the Debuff or they rebalance my attack speed your choice.









I don't buy this. You claim that it makes you two to three times as slower, which is about a 50-66% debuff. Like I said, as soon as my Jedi friend logs in, I'll submit the timestamps to the community.


Until then, keep your comments to yourself, okay?





Axob Freelight
The non-Jedi are extinct. Their fire has gone out of the universe.
Ternque01
Fri Aug 12, 2005 10:17 pm
#23


Here are the hard numbers I promised. Read up.




INTRODUCTION


The purpose of this test was to determine the effects of the -40 combat speed debuff possessed by Combat Medics, Pikemen, and Smugglers. Additionally, the test was run to determine, if indeed, that the amount of the debuff can be seen as unbalancing to the game.


PROCEDURE


The test was run on a Jedi player who was capable of Force Speed 1. This buff grants a +10 combat speed bonus. Tests were run with both Force Speed 1 on and off. The duration of the tests was 1 minute each.


RESULTS


Test 1.a) Test subject has Force Speed 1 off, and no debuff is applied to the subject. Saber hit is set to auto attack. Recorded below are the timestamps from the hits, which also include the misses.


23:22:17

23:22:20

23:22:24

23:22:28

23:22:33

23:22:37

23:22:39

23:22:43

23:22:48

23:22:51

23:22:55

23:22:58

23:23:02

23:23:06

23:23:10

23:23:15


Total: 16 attacks


Test 1.b) Test subject has Force Speed off, and a -40 attack speeddebuff is applied to the subject. Saber hit is set to auto attack. Recorded below are the timestamps from the hits, which also include the misses.


23:23:44

23:23:50

23:23:55

23:24:01

23:24:05

23:24:09

23:24:14

23:24:20

23:24:25

23:24:30

23:24:35

23:24:41


Total: 12 attacks


Test 2.a) Test subject has Force Speed 1 on, and no debuff is applied to the subject. Saber hit is set to auto attack. Recorded below are the timestamps from the hits, which also include the misses.


23:16:54

23:16:57

23:17:01

23:17:04

23:17:08

23:17:11

23:17:15

23:17:18

23:17:22

23:17:25

23:17:28

23:17:32

23:17:36

23:17:39

23:17:43

23:17:45

23:17:49

23:17:53


Total: 18 attacks


Test 2.b) Test subject has Force Speed 1 on, anda -40 combat speeddebuff is applied to the subject. Saber hit is set to auto attack. Recorded below are the timestamps from the hits, which also include the misses.


23:19:15

23:19:19

23:19:24

23:19:29

23:19:34

23:19:39

23:19:44

23:19:49

23:19:54

23:19:59

23:20:04

23:20:09

23:20:14


Total: 13 attacks



ANALYSIS


For Test 1, the percentage difference in the hits was 100% - 12/16 = 100% - 75% = 25%.


For Test 2, the percentage difference in the hits was 100% - 13/18 = 100% - 72.2% = 27.8%


Average of the two percentages: (25% + 27.8%)/2 = 26.4%



DISCUSSION


The final result of 26.4% decrease in aplayer's attack speed matches earlier data taken using piket and huurton test subjects, which indicated a little over 25% difference as well. The matchup between NPC and PC numbers is encouraging.


The discrepancy between the 25% and 27.8% debuff could easily be attributed to the restricted length of the testing period, i.e. if the testing were to be conducted over 4 mins a test, one would expect the results to match better. Of course, since this was only a one-minute test, it isn't easily determined by the timestamps.


Overall, a general feel for the actual effects of a -40 combat speed debuff on a player target, especially one capable of buffing their own attack speed, is allowed by using only a one minute testing period.


CONCLUSION


A 26.4% decrease in a target's attack speed in well within balanced parameters for a debuff attack.It is in no danger of disrupting game balance.



Axob Freelight
The non-Jedi are extinct. Their fire has gone out of the universe.
hamhamthe3rd
Sat Aug 13, 2005 3:14 am
#24






Ternque01 wrote:


Here are the hard numbers I promised. Read up.




INTRODUCTION


The purpose of this test was to determine the effects of the -40 combat speed debuff possessed by Combat Medics, Pikemen, and Smugglers. Additionally, the test was run to determine, if indeed, that the amount of the debuff can be seen as unbalancing to the game.


PROCEDURE


The test was run on a Jedi player who was capable of Force Speed 1. This buff grants a +10 combat speed bonus. Tests were run with both Force Speed 1 on and off. The duration of the tests was 1 minute each.


RESULTS


Test 1.a) Test subject has Force Speed 1 off, and no debuff is applied to the subject. Saber hit is set to auto attack. Recorded below are the timestamps from the hits, which also include the misses.


23:22:17

23:22:20

23:22:24

23:22:28

23:22:33

23:22:37

23:22:39

23:22:43

23:22:48

23:22:51

23:22:55

23:22:58

23:23:02

23:23:06

23:23:10

23:23:15


Total: 16 attacks


Test 1.b) Test subject has Force Speed off, and a -40 attack speeddebuff is applied to the subject. Saber hit is set to auto attack. Recorded below are the timestamps from the hits, which also include the misses.


23:23:44

23:23:50

23:23:55

23:24:01

23:24:05

23:24:09

23:24:14

23:24:20

23:24:25

23:24:30

23:24:35

23:24:41


Total: 12 attacks


Test 2.a) Test subject has Force Speed 1 on, and no debuff is applied to the subject. Saber hit is set to auto attack. Recorded below are the timestamps from the hits, which also include the misses.


23:16:54

23:16:57

23:17:01

23:17:04

23:17:08

23:17:11

23:17:15

23:17:18

23:17:22

23:17:25

23:17:28

23:17:32

23:17:36

23:17:39

23:17:43

23:17:45

23:17:49

23:17:53


Total: 18 attacks


Test 2.b) Test subject has Force Speed 1 on, anda -40 combat speeddebuff is applied to the subject. Saber hit is set to auto attack. Recorded below are the timestamps from the hits, which also include the misses.


23:19:15

23:19:19

23:19:24

23:19:29

23:19:34

23:19:39

23:19:44

23:19:49

23:19:54

23:19:59

23:20:04

23:20:09

23:20:14


Total: 13 attacks



ANALYSIS


For Test 1, the percentage difference in the hits was 100% - 12/16 = 100% - 75% = 25%.


For Test 2, the percentage difference in the hits was 100% - 13/18 = 100% - 72.2% = 27.8%


Average of the two percentages: (25% + 27.8%)/2 = 26.4%



DISCUSSION


The final result of 26.4% decrease in aplayer's attack speed matches earlier data taken using piket and huurton test subjects, which indicated a little over 25% difference as well. The matchup between NPC and PC numbers is encouraging.


The discrepancy between the 25% and 27.8% debuff could easily be attributed to the restricted length of the testing period, i.e. if the testing were to be conducted over 4 mins a test, one would expect the results to match better. Of course, since this was only a one-minute test, it isn't easily determined by the timestamps.


Overall, a general feel for the actual effects of a -40 combat speed debuff on a player target, especially one capable of buffing their own attack speed, is allowed by using only a one minute testing period.


CONCLUSION


A 26.4% decrease in a target's attack speed in well within balanced parameters for a debuff attack.It is in no danger of disrupting game balance.






your test seems to show how useless a speed buff is.maybe those should have stayed untouched.


anyway one thing you should know about sabers since we are on the subject, the modified speed of the saber isnt the speed you attack at, your base is used when dealing with sabers. so everyone who uses a saber is running around with a natural speed debuff because the system is still buggy. i bet some of those ppl really mess that +5 speed they lostfrom their force speed.




Ternque01
Sat Aug 13, 2005 8:40 am
#25








hamhamthe3rd wrote:


your test seems to show how useless a speed buff is.maybe those should have stayed untouched.


anyway one thing you should know about sabers since we are on the subject, the modified speed of the saber isnt the speed you attack at, your base is used when dealing with sabers. so everyone who uses a saber is running around with a natural speed debuff because the system is still buggy. i bet some of those ppl really mess that +5 speed they lostfrom their force speed.








The only Jedi I could get ahold of at the time had only the +10 speed buff. It added about 2 attacks per minutes, which isn't huge. It is possible that the +20 speed buff woulda added 4 attacks, but who the hell knows?


It's cool you were able to get some useful data out of the testing, but above all, I hope you take with you that the -40 speed debuff is something that IS balanced and isn't something that needs to be nerfed.


I did this test to protect the usefulness of players with this skill, and sometimes, this debuff is all that a profession can do to add to a fight.



Axob Freelight
The non-Jedi are extinct. Their fire has gone out of the universe.
taxxyou
Sat Aug 13, 2005 12:49 pm
#26

I hope they leave it in its my favorite attack right after paralyze )



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