Combat Medic Archive
Thread: Non-LOS attack is a feature of CM. Elanore is sabotaging our class.
MichaelF77 wrote:
So ... you think that everyne should have a huge mind bar, and those fighters who do not need mind for anything and leave it low are stupid ?
you can quote me on this one:
Yes, period.
displaying a weakness in PvP is asking others to use it against you.
I have to re-think my stand on mind poisons and how damaging the poisons are. At first I thought I agreed with Elenora but I have to back off from that now.
The reason is this:
This game is supposed to be geared towards groups working together. Get a team together and go out and take someone on, if you encounter a CM then it is your job as the team to eliminate that threat. I can't believe that all you hard core power gamer types cannot figure out a way to take out a combat medic at an acceptable rate of loss. I watched these guilds in Everquest plan these massive assualts on the dragons and gods in Everquest. Go here and do this at this exact time blah blah blah, well don't sit there and tell me that a CM is so hard to take out that you cannot possibly find the weakness. Geez I can think of two or three right now.
Yeah you know the damage is tough, it should be you are a master after all. Take a 30th level player against a 50th level sometime in everquest and see who wins. This game is going to be fast in PvP mainly because of the lower amounts of hit points on characters. There are weapons in this game that would take all my health in a single shot I can do 1/3 of my health with a single shot from a carbine. I would expect that by the time I ama master at Carbine I should be able to kill just about any unbuffed player in one shot. I have no doubt that Rifleman should be able to do the same thing against the mind pool so what is the problem here?
I really think the only thing that should be looked at is LOS damage should be left alone and I expect that this will be the change that goes into place.
Everyone will complain every class untill PvP is only based on shooting a gun, that gun should be the only type in the galaxy, and everyone has the same moves with it.
Why don't the Dev's just nerf Elenora?
She wants to be nerfed. I don't.
Or maybe if she wants a challenge she could drop CM and be a Commando?
Elenora has helped a lot of people on the boards, I applaud her for that. However, I will never agree with the constant posts beeging for us to be nerfed. Let the other professions do that! They certainly don't need our help!
We should fight to make our profession the best it can be.
Elenora has posted some great info that really helped me on my way up, but Elenora, please stop asking for us to be nerfed.
Thoth
You know its funny, I have been one of the people to sit here and defend keeping non-LOS application for CMs...
Now what i do think is wrong is that I can do more minddamage and easier than a BH or a rifleman...
thus if non-LOS is kept in game, then mind damage and just mind damage needs to be reduce 50%
if the current power of mind poisons is kept then I would say it needs LOS....
you cant have it both..its really not fair...
Elenora let me just say up front I'm not jumping on the bash Elenora bandwagon but isn't your view of CM off a bit. I believe I've read else where that you have a lot of Doctor skills.
Doesn't that effect your ability to make powerful mind poison?
This class is intended for people with CM and a combat specialty.
I'm just curious if the folks with Master Medic and no Doctor skills can match what you are doing, if not then the real problem could be allowing players to mix Docter and CM.
Here's a good example for you, with a few caveats. I'm Master Doc, so my components are all fully experimented with 10 points and I use Advanced Infection Controllers. I'm 1 box shy of Master CM (just Crafting IV to finish out.) So the poisons in this example, while only B level, are still fairly decent.
Last night I went with a Master Ranger (with some CH skills and a couple of mid-level pets) and a Novice Smuggler out to Lord Nyax's place. Pretty tough set of customers to work through and we fully expected to die. The first run through we got down to the 2nd level, relying strictly on combat skills and pets, before we got gang-rushed and myself and the smuggler dies, while our ranger and pets were able to get out. (And Since I'm Master Doc and have kept my Artisan with Survey 1, that should tell you that RWS is ALL of my combat skill, so allI really do is suppression to keep the NPCs off their feet when I can.)
The Smuggler decided to call it a night, so that left just the Ranger and Myself. This time we decided I would throw poison from in the house to try and pull them out one at a time. That worked OK for a while, but they kept respawning and we would never have gotten down to Nyax at this rate.
So we decided to do one last thing. Stand outside the bunker and throw AoE poison, effectively through the ground, at the rest of the NPCs. They aggroed on me, sure enough, but none of the came out of the bunker. Only if I went into the building would the come after me. HeckI could have soloed the entire bunker if I'd had enough poison with me.
Now to me that's a bug with NPC pathing. I have no problems with the idea of dumping poison into their ventilation system on that bunker, or tossing a gas bomb down the stairs. These things make sense to me (and yea, those places usually do have windows, they look like little pains of glass up near the tops of the buildings. Those are supposed to be windows.) That's a tactic, IMHO. BUT, those guys should have rushed out of there like mad bees to swarm over me and kill me in two hits flat. Just didn't happen.
Now, is that a problem with Poison power? I don't think it really is. It took me all 12 charges of fully experimented Health B poison just to get those NPCs down to 1/2 HAMs. Another 12 charges of individual B Poisons took them down to 1/4 HAMs and, when we finally got to Nyax, he still mopped the floor with our carcasses. (Slight targeting and strategy problem, otherwise we would have had him.) If the pathing problem had worked, Iwould have been lucky to have gotten 1/4 of them to lose even 1/4 of their HAMs. Any good CH can do better than that in the same time.
Is it a problem with LOS? Not really that, either. What's wrong with tossing a poison over a wall, thourgh a window, thorugh a door, into a vent? There are MANY ways to dump poison and it just so happens that since this is the Star Wars universe, it may not even be a gas we are talking about, but a targeted drain ray that can pass thorugh walls but not affect your companions (it's a smart bomb in that way), or even nanobots that are doing the actual poisoning. Putting a reality spin on it just doesn't cut it in Star Wars, IMHO. So we have to stick to gameplay arguments instead. Gameplay-wise, as long as those NPCs can pop straight through a wall to get to me, screw LOS. It virtually doesn't exist. If it's not an issue for the NPC, why should it be an issue for us? They already ahve enough advantages over us, IMHO.
PvP is a different story, though. But to me the we simply need a counter. Let LOS stand, but provide a COUNTER. We can AoE poison. Hmmm. Ok. How abut Docs, or even CMs for all I care, get AoE state cures? Then whether LoS is there or not, it can be countered and compensated for. And yeah, those comabt classes who spent LESS points to Master, will wipe the floor with you if they can ever get around to finding you. No contest then, as long as they have someone who can counter that CM poison. There is no similar counter for their Bleeds, that's for sure. FA is nowhere near as effective as a Cure Poison C is.
So no,I don't think CMs are overpowered, but I DO think there are some problems not directly related to CM abilities as they stand now. And it is THOSE problems that should be rectified first, before we start swinging the nerf bat atCMs.
Zarlor like you said u are 99% PvE
in PvP 75% damage reduction has totally made FA effective in stopping bleeds...i can stop any bleed ive encoutner so far with 2 applications of FA.
in PvE its still a problem...
In PvP, AOE poisons provide 2 problems for a doctor....1) no aoe versions for a doctor and 2) the instant u cure it it can be reapplied.
So i would fully agree that doctors need AOE sure but still only address some of the problem...
besides a AOE cure just means grps that are poisoned stay together making it even easier to toss AOE poisons...but AOE cure is something that is much needed.
then there is agains the whole issue of mind poison and mind damage which is so much larger than the CM class
oh i understand that PvE is the devs baby...thats well defined...
but no one is really complaining that xxx class can solo gnorts better than yyy class...
what u see is xxx just totally wiped out a force for 30 rebs from inside the star port with some sick gay aoe mind poison...
enough people will start to scream foul and the devs will listen
Elenora wrote:
First of all if you have ever read my posts which u obviously havent...
I say 2 things...if u keep mindpoison as high as it is now, LOS is needed...
the other is if u keep LOS, mind poison needs to be toned down...
Elenora, no human being can keep up with your thousands of rants. All we know is you actively exploit and cheat. Hide in buildings and AOE poison Cantinas for hours on end. I can't imagine why people are made at CH's. Then after pissing off all the enemies with exploits, you come here and say how overpowered you are and make it worse.
You are cheating!! Plain and simple. Then saying you are overpowered. I asked you once before. I will ask again. Make some poison at CM level skill (not doc). Then go and play and only poison using LOS. Come back and tell us how that was. Going to guess it isn't any more overpowered (probably less), than using a carbine aoe knockdown.
What the hell is wrong with you? You are using exploits, doctor level poisons and post thousands of posts saying nerf, then you go post how to exploit LOS? What the hell is wrong with you?Clearly you want this class to be nerfed.
I hope to gawd every sane person will start voting 1 on all of Elenora's posts. Every single one you see. She is destroying our class by exploiting LOS, helping others to exploit it, using poisons none of us can make. She spends hours using these exploits pissing everyone off, then comes here and says we are overpowered.
She is the leading force in an undeservered nerf against this class. Vote 1 on every post of hers you see. For the good of our class!
El, Yes and no. (And for those who didn't cath it or were confused by it, that first line in my las post should say I mostly PvE, not PvP, sorry.)
I agree that with enough complaints CMs will get looked at sooner rather than later. The problem there is you'll see CMs get slammed with a nerf bat that may have been wholly unwarranted (I'm stillnot convinced here that CMs need this yet) and then we'll be stuck low powered again until they finally get back to us MONTHS later.
So I still say that we really should try and follow what the Devs need to be able to do in this matter by trying to use PvE as the yardstick, not PvP. And we still must remember the cost of the class when taking into account PvP issues -v- a Master of some other standard combat class.There are extra costs associated wtih being a CM and as such CMs should have some extra capability to compensate. BH's SHOULD be more powerful than a Master Pistoleer or Master Rifleman, for example. And so should CMs, because that Master Pistoleer or Rifleman will have more than enough points to compensate wtih other skills whatever their shortcmings should be. We don't have the same options.
BTW, I still haven't seen an answer to my quetsion from folks out there. Are other "thrown" weapons subject to LoS rules? Does anyone know if a commando throwing a grenade can do so withouth LoS, for example? I'd use Ranger in the equation, but their current traps are beastie only.
I'm ot saying that Aoe Mind poisons, or even that mind poisons in general are or are not "overpowered". (I'd like to see some Dev input on our Doc issues about this, at the very least first.) At this time I think we just need to sit back and try to help out by providing balace suggestion based on PvE. No matter what theother classes are trying to do or are saying.
The issues are valid, but I think we need to make sure that we do our best to use the correct yardstick for measurement before crying about what may be a sheep in wolfs clothing.Doing so may actually do us far more harm than good. I will say that do agree that we shuld be a balanced, and thereby more fun, class. I just think measuring it in PvP at THIS time is the wrong method to use.