Cities And Housing Archive
Thread: OT: Player City Disscussion over at the Vault
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Rizzaka
Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:48 am
#1
Now i know this isn't the place but i figured i'd post it here anyways cuz this seems to be a place that would get alot of intelligent disscussion on this topic. I got bored and checked out the IGN swgvault forums, this post was there....
Post made orignially by: Marzuk - Title: SWG Vault Staff
I was talking about this with a few guild members, and I think that this system needs to be totally changed. I am not for wiping out any of the current player cities, or removing the "old" system (current heh) but I would like to see the current system made obsolete by a new system, which would gradually phase out the old system.
Current problems with the player city:
1) Pointless. I assume that the bonuses that are in place are there to make a city feel worth it, but for the most part, they are empty the majority of the time.
2) Eye sores. Players do not have the tools that the devs do, and can not change terrain at will, create unique structures, or orient structures in any other way than a 90 degree rotation. These things make it very hard to create something that feels like a city, most just feel like grids at best, or random placements at worst.
3) 90% of the player cities are not populated in the game, coronet, dathomir science outpost, dant mining outpost, and theed are populated to the exclusion of almost all other cities.
4) Instant travel to and from starports with JTL, has seriously devalued the importance of having a shuttleport.
5) The mayoral system is a joke, especially elections as there is no competition from what Ive seen.
Now, ideally Id like to see the current NPC cities BECOME player cities. This would solve several problems:
1) Most of the cities are very asthetically designed, but totally empty. This is a shame. Take Deeja Peeks - very nice city.
2) Even without other benifits, NPC cities would be heavily contested. This would fix that portion of the mayoral system. The mayors would also have control over something that mattered.
3) All of the cities would get an instant population. No longer would places like Theed and Coronet be the only place to find people. This would spread people out significantly.
This system would leave SO much room for doing interesting things as well, here is a list of examples, of what you could do in such a system, where bieng in a city actually counts:
1) Use game mechanics to shape the citizens of a city. Imagine Mos Eisley bieng a central location to find smugglers for example. You could have factional cities as well, where perhaps only a person of a certain faction could be the Mayor. Perhaps even a couple perma overt cities, for the PvP players / guilds as well.
2) Give Mayors significant control over the city. Right now its kind of like who cares when it comes to Mayor. What if the Mayor could tax you significantly? How about the Mayor cut funding on a certain part of the city, causing training to be more expensive? Mayors need to have the ability to make positive and negative changes in the city, as a balance between things. This could make bieng mayor MUCH more fun.
3) Merchants! Merchants would love this system, where they could have a vendor in a central location in a city.
4) Titles. Special titles for inhabitants of the cities. Imagine bieng the main Doctor / Dancer / Top merchant ect of a city, and getting a corresponding title. Perhaps you are the main Defender of a city as well. Something again for everyone here, PvE, PvP, or crafter. This would allow people to compete for central roles in a community. These titles wouldnt be limited to the person that spent the most hours, but perhaps someone that provided enough of a service to a city.
5) This is going to be a controversial one, but give players the control over AFK bots! Imagine, your mayor or one of the council see an AFK entertainer - they pose a game mechanic implemented challenge which the player fails to respond to OOPS! This would cause the players macro to cease, and all actions bieng taken by said player to stop as well. This would allow the players to police behaviors which they do not want in their city, in the hopes of encouraging real entertainment without excessive dev interference. This could even be something the mayor decides if the mayor and council would be able to do it. Perhaps people would vote for a mayor that would do one thing but not another, and real entertainers would flock to a city that supports them.
Im sure people can come up with more ideas, but the bottom line is that some system like this would allow people to feel that there was real purpose in the cities and that they actually lived in them, instead of the cities bieng mostly an inconvienance.
Post made orignially by: Marzuk - Title: SWG Vault Staff
I was talking about this with a few guild members, and I think that this system needs to be totally changed. I am not for wiping out any of the current player cities, or removing the "old" system (current heh) but I would like to see the current system made obsolete by a new system, which would gradually phase out the old system.
Current problems with the player city:
1) Pointless. I assume that the bonuses that are in place are there to make a city feel worth it, but for the most part, they are empty the majority of the time.
2) Eye sores. Players do not have the tools that the devs do, and can not change terrain at will, create unique structures, or orient structures in any other way than a 90 degree rotation. These things make it very hard to create something that feels like a city, most just feel like grids at best, or random placements at worst.
3) 90% of the player cities are not populated in the game, coronet, dathomir science outpost, dant mining outpost, and theed are populated to the exclusion of almost all other cities.
4) Instant travel to and from starports with JTL, has seriously devalued the importance of having a shuttleport.
5) The mayoral system is a joke, especially elections as there is no competition from what Ive seen.
Now, ideally Id like to see the current NPC cities BECOME player cities. This would solve several problems:
1) Most of the cities are very asthetically designed, but totally empty. This is a shame. Take Deeja Peeks - very nice city.
2) Even without other benifits, NPC cities would be heavily contested. This would fix that portion of the mayoral system. The mayors would also have control over something that mattered.
3) All of the cities would get an instant population. No longer would places like Theed and Coronet be the only place to find people. This would spread people out significantly.
This system would leave SO much room for doing interesting things as well, here is a list of examples, of what you could do in such a system, where bieng in a city actually counts:
1) Use game mechanics to shape the citizens of a city. Imagine Mos Eisley bieng a central location to find smugglers for example. You could have factional cities as well, where perhaps only a person of a certain faction could be the Mayor. Perhaps even a couple perma overt cities, for the PvP players / guilds as well.
2) Give Mayors significant control over the city. Right now its kind of like who cares when it comes to Mayor. What if the Mayor could tax you significantly? How about the Mayor cut funding on a certain part of the city, causing training to be more expensive? Mayors need to have the ability to make positive and negative changes in the city, as a balance between things. This could make bieng mayor MUCH more fun.
3) Merchants! Merchants would love this system, where they could have a vendor in a central location in a city.
4) Titles. Special titles for inhabitants of the cities. Imagine bieng the main Doctor / Dancer / Top merchant ect of a city, and getting a corresponding title. Perhaps you are the main Defender of a city as well. Something again for everyone here, PvE, PvP, or crafter. This would allow people to compete for central roles in a community. These titles wouldnt be limited to the person that spent the most hours, but perhaps someone that provided enough of a service to a city.
5) This is going to be a controversial one, but give players the control over AFK bots! Imagine, your mayor or one of the council see an AFK entertainer - they pose a game mechanic implemented challenge which the player fails to respond to OOPS! This would cause the players macro to cease, and all actions bieng taken by said player to stop as well. This would allow the players to police behaviors which they do not want in their city, in the hopes of encouraging real entertainment without excessive dev interference. This could even be something the mayor decides if the mayor and council would be able to do it. Perhaps people would vote for a mayor that would do one thing but not another, and real entertainers would flock to a city that supports them.
Im sure people can come up with more ideas, but the bottom line is that some system like this would allow people to feel that there was real purpose in the cities and that they actually lived in them, instead of the cities bieng mostly an inconvienance.
PsychoticChipmunk
Sun Jan 30, 2005 5:58 pm
#3
2 things:
1. The reasons we can't control NPC cities is because there are certain ones with named workers during this timeline. People that where picked either by the Emperor himself or the regional Grand Moff. It breaks the continuity in a way that LucasArts just won't allow.
2. The purpose of player cities was to allow people to create their own community, not get transplanted into one. The idea that I wouldn't be able to pick my locale or have any say over its look has less appeal than politician and player cities getting wiped from the game.
My town, and many others, does have a purpose. Several actually: It is a PvP hub on Corellia thanks to the activeness of one of our guilds and the bases placed at the outskirts of town. It is a mercantile spot for a good number of our vendors that get more traffic then if they where one of a nameless thousand circling Coronet as well as being placed in a more intersting locale with our own appeal. And finally it is a gathering spot for a hundred characters. While some of them are alts and I've got a couple of double citizens/left citizens we still have a considerably large community.
If we where all more or less transferred to Tyrena what would be the point to our existence? No PvP area since you can't really 'win' a battle in an NPC town only stay awake clone zerging longer. The merchants are made into another suburb shop, selling their wares as close as they possibly can get to a starport instead of drawing people out into the wilds and to explore parts of the world they never would have gone to otherwise. (we're 5k to the East of Coronet) The community gathering spot wouldn't be lost but that's only because of it's nature. A community isn't defined by its surroundings but rather they define them.
The only thing that needs to be changed with politician and player cities is a feasible influence on the region and allowing more and more abilities to customize the landscape so long as they are feasible. ie More garden and statue types, higher limits for these decor items and streetlamps,turning homes, placing bridges and walls, and paving the land. The latter part is just the decorator in me talking, because I want to make my city the most beautiful one in the galaxy. Making it the Jewel of Corellia, not Coronet. The former is possible in a myriad of ways that we have talked about on the poli boards.
Want there to be open elections? Make the mayor have an influence and something to argue about. Right now the only thing my oponent could campaign against me with is a different urban plan, an increase in taxes (we're at 0%) and a new face to represent the city...yeah that's a reason to go out and vote. If we had different things we held sway over that could actually be debateable you'd see democracy in work not enlightened despots.
WesBelden
Sun Jan 30, 2005 7:44 pm
#4
PsychoticChipmunk wrote:
2 things:
1. The reasons we can't control NPC cities is because there are certain ones with named workers during this timeline. People that where picked either by the Emperor himself or the regional Grand Moff. It breaks the continuity in a way that LucasArts just won't allow.
In some cities, yes, that would be a problem, but there are many cities that are especially low key that could have a mayoral voting system. Furthermore, most of those people placed in charge were planetary/regional governers; they're likely to delegate some responsability. I'll also bring up the point of continuity; while it pains me to say it and indeed use it in favour of this argument, the game does not adhere entirely to continuity in it's current state, doubtless I need not list the particular areas.
2. The purpose of player cities was to allow people to create their own community, not get transplanted into one. The idea that I wouldn't be able to pick my locale or have any say over its look has less appeal than politician and player cities getting wiped from the game.
My town, and many others, does have a purpose. Several actually: It is a PvP hub on Corellia thanks to the activeness of one of our guilds and the bases placed at the outskirts of town. It is a mercantile spot for a good number of our vendors that get more traffic then if they where one of a nameless thousand circling Coronet as well as being placed in a more intersting locale with our own appeal. And finally it is a gathering spot for a hundred characters. While some of them are alts and I've got a couple of double citizens/left citizens we still have a considerably large community.
If we where all more or less transferred to Tyrena what would be the point to our existence? No PvP area since you can't really 'win' a battle in an NPC town only stay awake clone zerging longer. The merchants are made into another suburb shop, selling their wares as close as they possibly can get to a starport instead of drawing people out into the wilds and to explore parts of the world they never would have gone to otherwise. (we're 5k to the East of Coronet) The community gathering spot wouldn't be lost but that's only because of it's nature. A community isn't defined by its surroundings but rather they define them.
I believe that what the original poster meant (although this may be jaded by my own personal opinion on the matter) is that the current PC city system would remain; thatthis would be in addition, allowing those without so many ties,or merely the desire for their character to live in a pre-built (dev) city to do so.
The only thing that needs to be changed with politician and player cities is a feasible influence on the region and allowing more and more abilities to customize the landscape so long as they are feasible. ie More garden and statue types, higher limits for these decor items and streetlamps,turning homes, placing bridges and walls, and paving the land. The latter part is just the decorator in me talking, because I want to make my city the most beautiful one in the galaxy. Making it the Jewel of Corellia, not Coronet. The former is possible in a myriad of ways that we have talked about on the poli boards.
I'm certainly all for PC cities having more in the way of art to increase their uniquie "city" feel
Want there to be open elections? Make the mayor have an influence and something to argue about. Right now the only thing my oponent could campaign against me with is a different urban plan, an increase in taxes (we're at 0%) and a new face to represent the city...yeah that's a reason to go out and vote. If we had different things we held sway over that could actually be debateable you'd see democracy in work not enlightened despots.
Just my 2 cents 
dashbarron
Sun Jan 30, 2005 8:11 pm
#5
cash it in with the devs....?
WesBelden wrote:
PsychoticChipmunk wrote:
2 things:
1. The reasons we can't control NPC cities is because there are certain ones with named workers during this timeline. People that where picked either by the Emperor himself or the regional Grand Moff. It breaks the continuity in a way that LucasArts just won't allow.
In some cities, yes, that would be a problem, but there are many cities that are especially low key that could have a mayoral voting system. Furthermore, most of those people placed in charge were planetary/regional governers; they're likely to delegate some responsability. I'll also bring up the point of continuity; while it pains me to say it and indeed use it in favour of this argument, the game does not adhere entirely to continuity in it's current state, doubtless I need not list the particular areas.
2. The purpose of player cities was to allow people to create their own community, not get transplanted into one. The idea that I wouldn't be able to pick my locale or have any say over its look has less appeal than politician and player cities getting wiped from the game.
My town, and many others, does have a purpose. Several actually: It is a PvP hub on Corellia thanks to the activeness of one of our guilds and the bases placed at the outskirts of town. It is a mercantile spot for a good number of our vendors that get more traffic then if they where one of a nameless thousand circling Coronet as well as being placed in a more intersting locale with our own appeal. And finally it is a gathering spot for a hundred characters. While some of them are alts and I've got a couple of double citizens/left citizens we still have a considerably large community.
If we where all more or less transferred to Tyrena what would be the point to our existence? No PvP area since you can't really 'win' a battle in an NPC town only stay awake clone zerging longer. The merchants are made into another suburb shop, selling their wares as close as they possibly can get to a starport instead of drawing people out into the wilds and to explore parts of the world they never would have gone to otherwise. (we're 5k to the East of Coronet) The community gathering spot wouldn't be lost but that's only because of it's nature. A community isn't defined by its surroundings but rather they define them.
I believe that what the original poster meant (although this may be jaded by my own personal opinion on the matter) is that the current PC city system would remain; thatthis would be in addition, allowing those without so many ties,or merely the desire for their character to live in a pre-built (dev) city to do so.
The only thing that needs to be changed with politician and player cities is a feasible influence on the region and allowing more and more abilities to customize the landscape so long as they are feasible. ie More garden and statue types, higher limits for these decor items and streetlamps,turning homes, placing bridges and walls, and paving the land. The latter part is just the decorator in me talking, because I want to make my city the most beautiful one in the galaxy. Making it the Jewel of Corellia, not Coronet. The former is possible in a myriad of ways that we have talked about on the poli boards.
I'm certainly all for PC cities having more in the way of art to increase their uniquie "city" feel
Want there to be open elections? Make the mayor have an influence and something to argue about. Right now the only thing my oponent could campaign against me with is a different urban plan, an increase in taxes (we're at 0%) and a new face to represent the city...yeah that's a reason to go out and vote. If we had different things we held sway over that could actually be debateable you'd see democracy in work not enlightened despots.
Just my 2 cents
WesBelden
Sun Jan 30, 2005 8:17 pm
#6
Who says I havn't? Just entering in the debate
dashbarron wrote:
cash it in with the devs....?
IForgotMyName
Sun Jan 30, 2005 8:18 pm
#7
There is nothing stopping you from taking over a NPC except yourself.
www.forum.mosentha.com
PsychoticChipmunk
Sun Jan 30, 2005 10:51 pm
#8
I realize the game doesn't adhere to continuity that closely but a camel's back can only take so much straw. We need to start tightening in the belt with continuity type issues and eventually all we'll have that makes no sense is jedi and that's only because of the factor practically every star wars game has to follow. Besides, if the CURB makes us all group a lot more then grinding jedi will put you on the terminal more often and faster so we may see the number of new knights slim down. Who knows.
And if he means to do this on top of the current system then I guess it isn't too terrible. However if it allows people to live in Theed or Coronet (how else can you rule over them) then it is going to ruin the economy of other areas due to the convenience factor. Sure people draw their customers to their shop, but replacing the 1k walk along the beach with a 1 meter one and the draw may weaken a good bit.
But all in all....just give us mayors more stuff devs. C'mon, you know you want to.
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