Cities And Housing Archive
Thread: The process of creating a structure for SWG
SWG-Goliath wrote:
Ifyou tried to click on the "item" it would select the entire object, not a bed. you coudln't click on the bed because you would select the entire suite. you coudlnt select a dresser because you would select the entire suit.
Camps are different all together. They are built by world builders to function they way they do and have special placement rules, borders and floors and all of that. Bow it might be possibel to make a campsite like room but the programming for that would be well above my head and would no longer fall into the department of art. I also doubt it wouldany longer be considered one item. Items in camps are in fact all seperate items,just like you see in settings like the mos eisly cantina.
SWG-Goliath wrote:
The cells have to line up perfectly, and the custom lighting i do has to match from room to room, or there is a huge and ugly pop when you step between them.
Mirkwoods wrote:
SWG-Goliath wrote:
Ifyou tried to click on the "item" it would select the entire object, not a bed. you coudln't click on the bed because you would select the entire suite. you coudlnt select a dresser because you would select the entire suit.
Camps are different all together. They are built by world builders to function they way they do and have special placement rules, borders and floors and all of that. Bow it might be possibel to make a campsite like room but the programming for that would be well above my head and would no longer fall into the department of art. I also doubt it wouldany longer be considered one item. Items in camps are in fact all seperate items,just like you see in settings like the mos eisly cantina.
Yes, I did understand this when I suggested it. These "pre-designed" rooms would probably still be desirable to many people in game.
Now, if possible, couldn't the "bedroom suite" work as a bed, and when you click on it, you could still sit on the bed? Considering that the room is different in layout than the bed, the animation may have to be changed a bit, but I can't see why you couldn't get onto the bed, with the sacrifice of being able to store anything in the chests. If say, rugs, lights, pictures or decorative weapons are part of the "item", they would not need to be functional seperately.
As for the chests, when trying to decorated a house, which is what this idea is really about, you really don't need to be able to put items inside the chests. In other words, I think we could live with the functionality of the chest.
Now, one other option might be to place another bed over or inside the prop bed so that it could be sat on. Pretty simple fix.
This just seems like a win-win situation for house decorating. Please point out any other problems and I'll set my logic machine to work on it.
P.S. Thanks for taking the time to discuss this with me. I have to think that most players would like this option.
Hmmm, maybe "pack up room" with the ability to sell the "room control". There's probably some really nasty programming work there.
I'd like to see just the ability to change wall interiors such as colors & textures, floor colors & textures, etc. As an architect, I'd like to be able to sell kits to do it, but I'm willing to share capabilities, such as having basic carpeting available from tailors.
A lot of the things people are requesting built-in ways of doing, are already available in various forms. There are loot item carpets available at high prices. There are paintings and postersthat can be used to "paper" a wall, so to speak. Different kinds of hide "resource containers" can be used on floors. Various things can be used as room dividers (interior walls) and custom furniture. They all take up multiple item slots in the house, more than they should have to if there were intentional designs to carry out the same basic functions.
My apologies for getting somewhat off-topic, but when I see a developer is actually interacting with a thread, I get motivated to say things.
Saego, Wanderhome.
Poldano wrote:
Hmmm, maybe "pack up room" with the ability to sell the "room control". There's probably some really nasty programming work there.
I'd like to see just the ability to change wall interiors such as colors & textures, floor colors & textures, etc. As an architect, I'd like to be able to sell kits to do it, but I'm willing to share capabilities, such as having basic carpeting available from tailors.
A lot of the things people are requesting built-in ways of doing, are already available in various forms. There are loot item carpets available at high prices. There are paintings and postersthat can be used to "paper" a wall, so to speak. Different kinds of hide "resource containers" can be used on floors. Various things can be used as room dividers (interior walls) and custom furniture. They all take up multiple item slots in the house, more than they should have to if there were intentional designs to carry out the same basic functions.
My apologies for getting somewhat off-topic, but when I see a developer is actually interacting with a thread, I get motivated to say things.
Saego, Wanderhome.
The orange comment blew my mind. Just think, using a slightly modified version of the house pack up programming, that actually packs up the individual cells and makes them sellable! What a boon for architects this would be.
However, how soon do I see development time placed on doing something like this? Magic Eightball says, "Not likely".
It is a cool thought though.
I do have to say that although rooms floors can be carpeted with animal skins, and other rugs... That takes up a whole lot of space item-wise. Same with using Wanted: Luke Skywalker posters to wallpaper.
omadnay wrote:
Pie-Oh-Pah wrote:
I asked this question before - but it maybe somehow drowned in the thread - or maybe I am really the only one with that concern?
Anyway - are there plans to make that new bunker so that it fits the specific planets? To me it just would not look "right" in a Naboo surrounding...
I'd have to say that the way these bunker houses look is not an issue for me...
I'm not telling you that you're wrong for wanting them to be able to fit each planet's style (Who am I to tell you that?), but as far as I'm concerned, these houses look the way that they look... it's up to the owner and city planner to decide whether or not they want them as part of their city.
This way, at least they may not be THE building most used for PA Halls or large houses.
In my opinion, it's good to make sure all those other houses aren't completely replaced by this one type.
So, in my opinion, this is what the bunker house looks like... it's up to you if you want to use it.
I personally like it that way, but in the end it's THEM that make the decisions... not me.
- Omadda Szool
Kauri
May the force be with you.
The way it looks right now it can be integrated without sticking out on Corellia and Talus - it will always look kinda "out of place" on other planets...
Pie-Oh-Pah wrote:
It would be nice though if it could be integrated into a town without sticking out like a rancor between baz nitches, no?
Don't get me wrong - I really love the way it looks per se and the way the rooms are set up and designed - it is just that I would like to give people (in that case - my citizens)the chance to set it up in our town too if that is what they wanted...
Alas, since our town has the rule that only Naboo style houses are allowed I guess that all of us who pre-ordered will end up placing the bunker way outside of town - which I personally find very sad... Looks thoughlike I am the only one with that opinion...
What I have read from the DEVs is that the bunker is not the same above ground as the Mustofarian version and they think that the player house version should be able to fit in with any other architecture on any planet.
Of course, that is their opinion.
Sure, interchangable outer skins sounds like a good idea, but that is just not something that they are going to spend valuable development time on. Maybe some day...
Perhaps you could get the Nabooian house nazis in your town to back off a bit on their rules? Oh well.
Mirkwoods wrote:
Perhaps you could get the Nabooian house nazis in your town to back off a bit on their rules? Oh well.
SWG-Goliath wrote:
Modular housing sounds cool at first glance, but the real problem is how we set up houses and other interiors in the game. In order to seperate the house from the rest of the world and thereby making the game more effectaint we use a portal system. when you step from the world into the house, you walk thru a portal. Each portalted room is called a cell. The cells have to line up perfectly, and the custom lighting i do has to match from room to room, or there is a huge and ugly pop when you step between them. In addition there is flooring issues as each cell has its own floor. those floors have to also match exactly or you cant cross thier bounderies.
cell
|_ mesh
|_ floor
|_ portals
|_ Lights
Bottom line is that from an art perspective player created modular housing would be extremely buggy and unpredicable assuming it even worked at all. Our game in its current state isnt set up for this level of customisation in housing.
Mucho thanks for the insight, Goliath.
I manage the development of some fairly complex software in my day job. There's been more than one time a developer has come to me with a great idea that I've had to nix, asit would have meant our customer didn't get three other things that weren't as cool butcould be implementedin less than a year and didn't requirea PhD in particle physics. Those decisions aren't popular, but sometimes a system is just too complicated to enhance without a complete (and expensive) redesign.
So I won't pester further for modular architecture, even if it is one of my favorite ideas. I would like to offera suggestion, though.
It sounds like designing a house is still avery manual process that requires a lot oftweaking and adjusting toget things to look and work right. It's not clear whether you feel this iterativeprocessis a valuablepart of theartistic/creativecapabilities you bring to your work, or if you regard all the tweaking as frustrating techie stuff you justhave to endureto get a particular artistic effect. Either way, it sounds very labor-intensive.
The good newsis thatit also sounds like you understandthe rules of the process. (Cellopenings and floorsmust line up; fixed lighting must be consistent between cells; etc.)If your Tools group (do you still have a tool development group?) ever decides to make your life easier by improving your house construction tools to include functions that applythese rules for you (like a"snap-to" function), I like to think it might be possible to create similar functions in the Live code for players to use.
There's no question that a DIY house construction feature would result in some truly ugly houses -- technical ability doesn't imply aesthetic ability! And of course there'd be people who'd perverselyenjoy competing in a "Build The Ugliest House" contest. But knowing the rules of what makes a house "work" -- the things that make ahouse minimally functional even ifit's not beautiful --should mean that those rules could be implemented in code so as to prevent buggy houses from ever being constructed. If it's not valid according to the design rules, the system won't even let you create a blueprint schematic. You just (just!) have to make sure the design rules prevent all the designs that would break the game, without being so draconian as to stifle innovative designs.
Sure. No problem. 
The payoff might not seem worth the effort. The thing is, there's no question that there are plenty of people still playing SWG who would happily pay for acreative, exploration-oriented feature like modular architecture.For that matter, while this wouldn't quite be a "modding" feature, it's similar... and the popularity of modding suggests that there could bea significant number ofpeople who don't currentlysubscribe to SWG who would do soif it offered a true"builder" feature.
That's a big "if," of course.All I'm suggesting isthat if you ever get house design tools to make your life a little easier,I'd hope to seethose toolsalso migratedinto the game itself.
Regardless, thanks again for all youreffort, and for the great communication. Be assured that for every critic, there are a bunch of us you don't hear from because we'reout enjoying your work.
--Flatfingers
Starstrider6 wrote:
Mirkwoods wrote:
Perhaps you could get the Nabooian house nazis in your town to back off a bit on their rules? Oh well.
Just a few things. First of all, Pie is the mayor of our town, so she's made that rule and we citizens enjoy that our town looks peaceful and beautiful, and not like some sort of military base or something akin to the planet belching out a bunch of houses of all types, that don't look planned or appropriate.
Second, Pie happens to be a German, and you just called her a Nazi,. because to you it was a "cool" sounding word that you don't seem to have the slightest idea about its true meaning, or what effect it would have on someone from Germany.
Then again, the fact that you toss around the term "nazi" so casually shows me that you don't have any grasp of what she's asking, and why. That doesn't surprise me.
Maybe I can explain it in terms you'll understand (Sorry, I don't have any construction paper and crayons to draw pictures for you, so you'll have to keep reading for a little bit more).
Every player that orders this expansion is going to get one of the new houses, and it comes with some serious "Cool" factor. In the interest of keeping a town's appearance in relation to their planet, it would be nice if the new house came with an option to make it look less "bunker" and more natural. Think of the small Tattoine mound that was the entrance to the Lars home. The rooms were underground, however there was a stone mound that was like other Tattoine structures,
It would take a different color and perhaps some different lines, and a gump that asked the player if they wanted one style or the other. It's not asking a lot to make it better for existing cities.
Listen, I am completely sorry if the term nazi offended you or anyone else.
I am actually of German descent myself, and could care less. You can call me an aardvark, but if I don't eat ants, you'd be wrong. If you watched Seinfeld's soup nazi episode, then you might know that the term can be used in a funny way. Perhaps not be me, but I try. I do not think that it is a "cool" word... but I was in fact mocking nazi ideals.
Message Edited by Mirkwoods on 10-05-2005 05:37 PM
Mirkwoods, I can't help but troll a little here, and give you some "old farmer's advice":
"When you find yourself in a hole, the first thing to do is stop digging."
Flatfingers wrote:
SWG-Goliath wrote:
Modular housing sounds cool at first glance, but the real problem is how we set up houses and other interiors in the game. In order to seperate the house from the rest of the world and thereby making the game more effectaint we use a portal system. when you step from the world into the house, you walk thru a portal. Each portalted room is called a cell. The cells have to line up perfectly, and the custom lighting i do has to match from room to room, or there is a huge and ugly pop when you step between them. In addition there is flooring issues as each cell has its own floor. those floors have to also match exactly or you cant cross thier bounderies.
cell
|_ mesh
|_ floor
|_ portals
|_ Lights
Bottom line is that from an art perspective player created modular housing would be extremely buggy and unpredicable assuming it even worked at all. Our game in its current state isnt set up for this level of customisation in housing.
Mucho thanks for the insight, Goliath.
I manage the development of some fairly complex software in my day job. There's been more than one time a developer has come to me with a great idea that I've had to nix, asit would have meant our customer didn't get three other things that weren't as cool butcould be implementedin less than a year and didn't requirea PhD in particle physics. Those decisions aren't popular, but sometimes a system is just too complicated to enhance without a complete (and expensive) redesign.
So I won't pester further for modular architecture, even if it is one of my favorite ideas. I would like to offera suggestion, though.
It sounds like designing a house is still avery manual process that requires a lot oftweaking and adjusting toget things to look and work right. It's not clear whether you feel this iterativeprocessis a valuablepart of theartistic/creativecapabilities you bring to your work, or if you regard all the tweaking as frustrating techie stuff you justhave to endureto get a particular artistic effect. Either way, it sounds very labor-intensive.
The good newsis thatit also sounds like you understandthe rules of the process. (Cellopenings and floorsmust line up; fixed lighting must be consistent between cells; etc.)If your Tools group (do you still have a tool development group?) ever decides to make your life easier by improving your house construction tools to include functions that applythese rules for you (like a"snap-to" function), I like to think it might be possible to create similar functions in the Live code for players to use.
There's no question that a DIY house construction feature would result in some truly ugly houses -- technical ability doesn't imply aesthetic ability! And of course there'd be people who'd perverselyenjoy competing in a "Build The Ugliest House" contest. But knowing the rules of what makes a house "work" -- the things that make ahouse minimally functional even ifit's not beautiful --should mean that those rules could be implemented in code so as to prevent buggy houses from ever being constructed. If it's not valid according to the design rules, the system won't even let you create a blueprint schematic. You just (just!) have to make sure the design rules prevent all the designs that would break the game, without being so draconian as to stifle innovative designs.
Sure. No problem.
The payoff might not seem worth the effort. The thing is, there's no question that there are plenty of people still playing SWG who would happily pay for acreative, exploration-oriented feature like modular architecture.For that matter, while this wouldn't quite be a "modding" feature, it's similar... and the popularity of modding suggests that there could bea significant number ofpeople who don't currentlysubscribe to SWG who would do soif it offered a true"builder" feature.
That's a big "if," of course.All I'm suggesting isthat if you ever get house design tools to make your life a little easier,I'd hope to seethose toolsalso migratedinto the game itself.
Regardless, thanks again for all youreffort, and for the great communication. Be assured that for every critic, there are a bunch of us you don't hear from because we'reout enjoying your work.
--Flatfingers
Thanks, Flatfingers. As another long-time software guy, I was kind of offended by some of the comments that creation of the bunker house took way too long. I really had to restrain myself from absolutely flaming thefirst personwho said it. You kind of indirectly dealt with that whole line of reasoning. I can really relate to the scenario described by Rogue_5 and Goliath; I've done the same kind of thing myself on several occasions, and I've had to nix many of my own "great ideas" (IMAO, at least) in order to keep to schedule or avoid risk of unacceptable unintended side effects. Maybe 5% of product creation is the actual creative work, the rest of it is the grind of making it all happen.
That being said, I think one of the undesirable side effects of modular housing is an increase in lag. This will be particularly true if the exterior skins are modular. I made the same comment in response to the same (or nearly the same) proposal in the architect forum several months ago. The reason for the increase in lag comes from the need to download and/or arrange lots of custom shapes, compared with the current "fixed" skins whose images can be stored client-side.
I mentioned at the same time that I thought the lag problem would not be nearly as bad if exterior skin shape was not modifiable, but if internal layout was at least partly variable, and if exterior color and texture could be customized. I have not heard whether I guessed right or not.
Saego, Master Architect, Wanderhome.