Chef Archive
Thread: Details on stomach filling and cloning, along with a lot of rambling
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Zoastra
Thu Apr 01, 2004 2:04 pm
#1
I suppose I can see what they were trying to curb, but I think they went about it the wrong way. It sounds like buffs were ok since they arereally separating out the instant effects here. I don't see what the deal is over heals, take Blue Milk for example. You are down to 10/600 mind, use a 400 point blue milk, then still get wiped out. When you clone, you are back to 600/600 mind (accumulated wounds are thrown in there of course), so I wonder what the big deal of being able to use another Blue Milk is?
The effect buffs ( dizzy, terrain nav, etc.) aren't stackable anyway, so I think that limits it properly right there. I guess it could be a problem for some guy to continually run out of the clone center with maximum KD defense, but would it be an issue really? The 'dead crafter running' schematic scenario you described might be a problem, but you could say that there is an economic limit put on it really...they are going to run out of those foods faster, and they aren't getting any more benefit per food consumed anyway.
The last few times I've been sent to the bacta tanks with spice in my system, the downer has been wiped out too, so essentially spice works in the way we'd like food to work.
This sounds like a system that they should pull out on Test Center for a little while and see if the 'exploits' they are stopping are really there. I guess to me it would have sounded better if they had said something like "look, we don't want people coming out of the clone center, popping brandy and muon and getting right back in the zerg. We want the price of the convenience of carrying that stuff around where you can use it any time you want to be that you simply have to wait out the filling timer. Doc/entertainer buffs are ok because you have to have a second party involved." Instead, I hear them saying that buffs (brandy as a prime example) would be ok, but we are reallyafraid that instant effects and ability boosts will be misused, so we are clamping down on everything without sorting it out.
Ragnaat
Thu Apr 01, 2004 2:04 pm
#2
SirVimes did a pretty good job of knocking down my previous devil's advocate post mentioning that 'clone clearing' might allow some non-combat foods to be exploited by mentioning how balanced the effect duration/probably use time is pretty well balanced with filling #s. You can't really save a *ton* of time by stringing a few bespin ports together then cloning out of your full stomach to warrant blocking the change on that front. (especially if/when the timer gets set to 30min).
I still think however there is something wrong with Gorrnar in a "kill me so i can quickly get from this POI to a city" scenario where you can pop one right before you ask someone to duel + db you, but I can honeslty say that's a case of the who the hell cares.
BUT, I posted the following scenario in the quoted In Live thread where TH posted the dev staffs reasoning for not clearing the stomach. I *do* think this is a strong reason not to change things, however I also see room for changing the specific food to match the stomach clearing scenario better as another possible solution:
I still think however there is something wrong with Gorrnar in a "kill me so i can quickly get from this POI to a city" scenario where you can pop one right before you ask someone to duel + db you, but I can honeslty say that's a case of the who the hell cares.
BUT, I posted the following scenario in the quoted In Live thread where TH posted the dev staffs reasoning for not clearing the stomach. I *do* think this is a strong reason not to change things, however I also see room for changing the specific food to match the stomach clearing scenario better as another possible solution:
Ragnaat wrote:
There are also other foods with high filling/low usage like Flameout that could also be exploited in certain circumstances. Think of how base raids would be affected if the stomach cleared on death and the "defenders" are taking flamout w/ 95% damage reduction for only 4 or 5 hits and 50% filling... that's 8 or 10 FREE hits... and then they hit the sythsteak. That'll easily get them from the clone center into the base in time to stop a countdown before the WILL die.
With the stomach not clearing they can each do this ONCE.
With the stomach clearing there is NO deterrant to doing this and NO defense against this.
Message Edited by Ragnaat on 04-01-2004 04:15 PM
Zoastra
Thu Apr 01, 2004 2:07 pm
#3
That's a very good point Ragnaat. That exploit would be widely used and would break the game.
Ankor
Thu Apr 01, 2004 2:17 pm
#4
m'kay, so if this is solely to prevent exploiting non-buff effects in PvP, is there any hope of having this system restricted to those situations?
SirVimes
Thu Apr 01, 2004 2:30 pm
#5
Ankor wrote:
m'kay, so if this is solely to prevent exploiting non-buff effects in PvP, is there any hope of having this system restricted to those situations?
Do you mean have some food empty out after death, and having other food not empty out? That would probably be a logistical nightmare for both players and developers. They probably could do it but it would take a while and I would rather see the developers work on other stuff.
Ragnaat
Thu Apr 01, 2004 2:38 pm
#6
Ankor wrote:
m'kay, so if this is solely to prevent exploiting non-buff effects in PvP, is there any hope of having this system restricted to those situations?
No, I think the devs like the idea of not being to chug brandy over and over again if you're dying every 5 minnutes as a PvP cloneing deterrant as well as probably a "you're in over your head guy" type move - or just a mechanic to make people think twice about "overbuffing" themselves by taking 2 shots of brandy at a time.
I've spoken up on the topic because I can sort of understand the situation having been in scenarios where I'm fighting in anchorhead and its so intense that not only do i find myself dead often, but if the fighting goes on long enough I hit the point where I can't eat more synthsteak because I've "used" it much faster then I can digest it. (might be my 5th dose or something).
Also, a lot of the reason for the stomach is lost if there's no need to plan... If things are just so balanced that their filling *always* matches their use habits then why not just have no stomach and make it so you can only have one drink and one food item "active" at a time ad drop the whole idea? Personally I'd want it to stay and a more foods like Flameout to be introduced where the length of the benefit is short, the filling high and the balance one between the effect & filling instead of simply duration.
But even if I do sorta lean towards keeping things as is, I still think the issue needs to be discussed - with *neither* side dismissing the other outright and everyones concerns addressed.
Message Edited by Ragnaat on 04-01-2004 04:39 PM
Numen
Thu Apr 01, 2004 3:42 pm
#7
Ragnaat wrote:
Ragnaat wrote:
There are also other foods with high filling/low usage like Flameout that could also be exploited in certain circumstances. Think of how base raids would be affected if the stomach cleared on death and the "defenders" are taking flamout w/ 95% damage reduction for only 4 or 5 hits and 50% filling... that's 8 or 10 FREE hits... and then they hit the sythsteak. That'll easily get them from the clone center into the base in time to stop a countdown before the WILL die.
With the stomach not clearing they can each do this ONCE.
With the stomach clearing there is NO deterrant to doing this and NO defense against this.
Message Edited by Ragnaat on 04-01-2004 04:15 PM
I guess I just don't see how someone is helped in that situation.
" that's 8 or 10 FREE hits... and then they hit the sythsteak."
Are you inferring that if the stomache did empty after they cloned they would still have the 10 hits left on Flameout and then be able to take sythsteak on top of that?
Here is how I see people using that options
They use 2 flameouts, do whatever dmg they can. Die, clone.Take 2 more flameouts, die, clone, repeat...
I guess I just don't see that as a huge advantage. Honestly I think taking bases should be very hard to do. This little advantage given to the defenders I don't see as very overpowering.
Ragnaat
Thu Apr 01, 2004 4:15 pm
#8
Numen wrote:
Ragnaat wrote:Here is how I see people using that options
They use 2 flameouts, do whatever dmg they can. Die, clone. Take 2 more flameouts, die, clone, repeat...
I guess I just don't see that as a huge advantage. Honestly I think taking bases should be very hard to do. This little advantage given to the defenders I don't see as very overpowering.
yes... the synthsteak isn't needed to proove my point, I just mentioned it as something to do after the flameout, well, flamesout.
The part that you're missing in my scenario is that I'm not talking about the mechanics of taking over a base, but of defending a base. Or more directly stopping a self destruct countdown already in progress. I won't detail all the mechanics, but it only takes one defender to run into a newly taken over base to stop this process. And the game plays its basically a "get your dodge stacker to run past everyone of the invaders and hit the button before you die and make them start all over". Its already pretty easy for one or 2 good players to stop/largely delay 20 from destroying a base, a couple people on a constant flamout cycle would make that even easier.
But don't focus on this specific scenario too much. I wrote it up because most people complaining that their stomach didn't empty on death (or starting polls in various forums or whatever) aren't thinking beyond their own use of brandy as a long term buff sometimes cut short when all goes wrong. This was a clear example of a real situation that would be created by the change they are asking for.
The 'switch' can't be magically flipped without really talking about what it would do. Base raids are a scenario where one is potentially consuming a lot of different high filling foods and expecting their duration to be short *and* most of the time expecting to die once or twice. Sure the change will make all the brandy users happy, but in a week or two you'll be seeing different complaints like the one above.
Is it enough of a problem to prevent stomach clearing from changing? Are there other ways to address the problem that can be considered? Are some specific foods just not balanced - in either situation (e.g. noone uses flamout over brandy now because theres little point, but is it too good the other way around?) - and need to either be changed along with the stomach or just removed all together? Can we ever come up with a solution that makes everyone happy?
(grr... took me 5 minutes to log *back* into the forums and get this thing to post)
Numen
Thu Apr 01, 2004 8:52 pm
#9
Yea I definatly see your point. It would become more of an exploit instead of the annoyance it is now.
I still think there could be something put in place for PvE vs PvP. I use mainly stat buffs and skill buffs. I get 40 minutes or so of basically extra downtime if I die. The biggest issue I have with this system is that the devs didn't realize this problem before or they did know andnever put anything in to do anything about it.
Honestly the more I read about your reason about for them not empting the more I realize how broken bases still are. No exploit should be able to let 1 person stop 20 people from taking out a base and your even saying that it might be posible now without even exploits. That just seems very broken. Making decisions based on those bad systems just makes it worse IMO. It doesn't look like they will be revamping bases anytime soon though. 
Ragnaat
Thu Apr 01, 2004 11:00 pm
#10
Try not to focus on the base scenario too much, I just used it as an example that I thought people would be familiar with.
Here's another question to ponder.... What happens to food effects and stomach clearing when you die and get res'd by a doctor in the field?
If you *expect* to die then any of the high impact/low duration/high filling foods (flameout, Thakitillo, fizz pudding, whatever else there is now or in the future) that use filling as a deterrent become very easy to eat. And I'm not trying to say this would necessisarily be a bad thing, might actually get people using some new foods, just that it must be explored.
Would it be beyond players to head to a new POI, load up on flameout and fizz pudding and over eat then kill-res half the goup after getting to the other side of a "door" - just to be able to fill up again and sneak out to the next door? Sure its costly, and again I not saying that would even be "wrong", but its something not possible now that would be if things changed just to please brandy users.
Same setup but instead of a 'cave' have just one or 2 people in a large pvp raids that are meant to tank fast and hard and burnout and then intentially die only to be rezed on the spot and repeat while the other people work on as support using current techniques.
Here's another question to ponder.... What happens to food effects and stomach clearing when you die and get res'd by a doctor in the field?
If you *expect* to die then any of the high impact/low duration/high filling foods (flameout, Thakitillo, fizz pudding, whatever else there is now or in the future) that use filling as a deterrent become very easy to eat. And I'm not trying to say this would necessisarily be a bad thing, might actually get people using some new foods, just that it must be explored.
Would it be beyond players to head to a new POI, load up on flameout and fizz pudding and over eat then kill-res half the goup after getting to the other side of a "door" - just to be able to fill up again and sneak out to the next door? Sure its costly, and again I not saying that would even be "wrong", but its something not possible now that would be if things changed just to please brandy users.
Same setup but instead of a 'cave' have just one or 2 people in a large pvp raids that are meant to tank fast and hard and burnout and then intentially die only to be rezed on the spot and repeat while the other people work on as support using current techniques.
Message Edited by Ragnaat on 04-02-2004 01:13 AM
sciguyCO
Fri Apr 02, 2004 1:12 am
#11
From TH's Weekly Roundtable thread in the "In Live" forum:
Thunderheart wrote:
CyberBossk wrote:
I posted this on Last Weeks thread and the one before I belive.
What is the status of Drink and Food meters being reset on cloning? It is really a pain in the butt, and makes no sense for a clones stomach to be full.
Please let us know when (if) this is going to be fixed.
Sorry, but this isn't a bug. The reason for not clearing the stomach on clone is that not all foods are buffs. Several of them are instant effects (heals, etc.) If you allow the stomach to clear on clone then players can duel and use the no-PvP death penalty to clear their stomach and get a free set of instant food uses.
So it's a need to balance the effect of the instant foods (probably especially focusing on Blue Milk and AItha). Ok, fair enough since you can't clear the effects of those on clone like you can with skill/stat buffs. Clearing the filling would also negate the cost of the high-power/low duration/high filling foods (which give large bonuses, but the effect wears off long before they are digested) like Flameout, Fizz Pudding, BoH or Vercupti.
My take on it:
Filling is the primary limiting factor on food buffs. It determines how many of an identical stat buff can be stacked. It determines the "mix" of stat and/or skill buffs you can have on at once. The Filling / duration ratio determines whether a buff can be constantly "on", or if downtime is required. Required downtime means you can havea larger buff during uptime without getting too unbalanced. Chef experimentation (or using filling/duration tissues) can reduce or eliminate the downtime, but this will mean that the buff size doesn't get as much attention.
Spices have their downer and can only have one active at a time.Doctor buffs require a lot of specific resources (for the big buff packs at least)and another player (or investing skill points yourself). Entertainer buffs require another player and downtime in a cantina or camp. Filling is the check on food's power.
I think clearing the stomach on clone would be good for chef sales (since the customers would go through food faster), but would have a large detrimental effect on PvP (Clone wars would get even worse), a smaller effect on PvE (especially for things like the Imperial Crackdown), and maybe even to crafting (I can't help imagining a naked suicide crafter eating Pyollian Cake, gulping Bespin Port, making a schematic, dying, and repeating with no cost other than wounds and BF).
The other option is to keep the filling when cloning, but also not clearing any active buffs. This removes the exploitability of reusing instant effect foods and retains the cost for the high buff/ high filling foods. But I suspect that the same thing would happen with the other buffs. So people would be raiding a Rebel/Imperial base that has a cloning center, and as each defender dies, they pop out with full buffed pools (minus any wounds they took previously). The attackers wouldn't have a chance, except maybe with overwhelming numbers since any dead soldiers on their side would have to drive/shuttle in from their bind location.
In addition, doctors would lose buff business since players who die to PvE wouldn't need rebuffing (which may or may not be a bad thing, I've seen a few docs complain about /tell hell), the time/money sinks of finding a doctor would be removed, and players would have the same benefits against NPC/creature mobs as the defenders in the above PvP scenario.
And I bet a spice's downer is another thing that wouldn't be cleared.
So we have as options:
1) Current system (clear buffs andfilling remains after cloning)
- Pro: balances buff power with duration/filling.
- Pro: Removes possibility of instant effect foods being unbalancing
- Con: Different from other buff types in game (they all clear on death, but can be reapplied right after cloning)
2) Clear bothfilling and buffs after cloning
- Con: Instant effect foods can be exploited
- Con: High power/low duration/high filling foods would likely be unbalanced since any downtime could be bypassed by dying.
- Pro: Same as other buff types
- Pro: Increased chef sales in general, and more high-filling foods like Flameout would likely be bought.
- Con: Increase tactical viability of just zerging out of the clone center when defending a base.
3a) Both filling and buffs remain after cloning, other buff types remain as currently implemented.
- Con: Food would be different from other buff types in game.
- Con: Probably decreased chef sales (players can currently use a lower-filling lower-power to get them through if they really need a buff).
- Pro: Customers will love this on themselves.
- Con: More clone center rushes (pausing only to reapply doc buffs)
3b) Filling and buffs remain after cloning, other buff types use the same system.
- Pro: Customers will absolutely love this on themselves (I'd think especially with the entertainer buffs or when the player is away from populated areas)
- Con: Clone center rushes without even the doc buff pause.
- Con: Docs, smugglers and (maybe) entertainers lose business.
- Con: Spices would either cause downer after cloning or not get the buff retained after cloning.
4) Buffs remain and filling clears after cloning
Ok, this was just included to get all 4 keep/clear combinations. It is so unbalanced it's not even funny.
The current system isn't perfect, but I do think it is better than the alternatives, especially when (I guess I should add "or if", but this has to be fixed) the digestion rate gets fixed to 30m. Of course, that is just my opinion, feel free to post what you think. I freely admit to limited PvP experience, so it's entirely possible that the stuff I put in about that is wrong, rare, or not that big a problem.
Numen
Fri Apr 02, 2004 1:30 am
#12
sciguyCO wrote:
From TH's Weekly Roundtable thread in the "In Live" forum:
Thunderheart wrote:
CyberBossk wrote:
I posted this on Last Weeks thread and the one before I belive.
What is the status of Drink and Food meters being reset on cloning? It is really a pain in the butt, and makes no sense for a clones stomach to be full.
Please let us know when (if) this is going to be fixed.
Sorry, but this isn't a bug. The reason for not clearing the stomach on clone is that not all foods are buffs. Several of them are instant effects (heals, etc.) If you allow the stomach to clear on clone then players can duel and use the no-PvP death penalty to clear their stomach and get a free set of instant food uses.
Honestly I think that is a horrible excuse.
PvP is one of the major things in this game that needs some serious help. Food actually balanced a few of those things out(KD/Dizzy isn't as powerful as it used to be, ect..). With this limitation it just forces people to go do something else that food doesn't affect for 30ish minutes. I do agree that it might be overpowered that people can get right back into a battle after they clone. However I don't see an issue with this as I just don't see it being something people would normally do. "Oh I won the duel, could you please kill me so I can eat more food and duel you again". If people really want to do that, I don't see a reason not to let them.
I'll add another option to your list. There is already the difference ingame between pvp and non pvp death. If the penalty of pvp death being nothing is the reason why this is overpowered then just make pvp death filling stay and non pvp death filling go to 0.
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