Chef Archive
Thread: Pikatta Pie is... doing something
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MuttonJedi
Sun Apr 04, 2004 6:24 pm
#1
So I made a batch of enhanced Pikatta Pie with 50% dodge bonus and went to Endor for a couple hours to try it out. I spent about half of the time with the buff on and half without. Looking at my log file later, this is what I found:
Without Pie Buff
720 hits (73%)
196 misses (20%)
74 hit-but-counterattack (7%)
With Pie Buff
480 hits (56%)
323 misses (39%)
17 hit-but-counterattack (2%)
The above numbers are all attacks on me by creatures, not NPCs. I saw no message indicating that I had ever dodged anything, but the ratio of misses to hits definitely went up. Btw, I was fighting a variety of creatures, but the results looked about the same when I broke out just one type.
What really confuses me is the big drop in counterattacks. I would expect them to drop some if the creatures are hitting less, but not as much as they did. I also have no idea how the 50% number for the dodge bonus fits into this.
I am working on swordsman and have no dodge bonus normally. I am curious if anyone with a dodge bonus ever gets a message that they dodged something, or if a dodge always appears as a miss in the combat window.
Mutton
Without Pie Buff
720 hits (73%)
196 misses (20%)
74 hit-but-counterattack (7%)
With Pie Buff
480 hits (56%)
323 misses (39%)
17 hit-but-counterattack (2%)
The above numbers are all attacks on me by creatures, not NPCs. I saw no message indicating that I had ever dodged anything, but the ratio of misses to hits definitely went up. Btw, I was fighting a variety of creatures, but the results looked about the same when I broke out just one type.
What really confuses me is the big drop in counterattacks. I would expect them to drop some if the creatures are hitting less, but not as much as they did. I also have no idea how the 50% number for the dodge bonus fits into this.
I am working on swordsman and have no dodge bonus normally. I am curious if anyone with a dodge bonus ever gets a message that they dodged something, or if a dodge always appears as a miss in the combat window.
Mutton
Numen
Mon Apr 05, 2004 8:09 am
#2
First, could you please list the weapon you were using. I would assume a carbine or 2H sword, but just want to make that clear. I don't care if you weren't attacking, I would just like to know the weapon you had equiped.
I may have an explanation on why counterattacks dropped off.
Dodge is probably applied before counterattack. You can never do both at the same time. I'm not sure why it wouldn't say dodge that time though. Food is the only case this applies to at the moment at least at a useful level. Without food no char has the ability to do 2 of those at a regular rate. They still will at some point, just very rarely.
I also don't believe it is 50% for the food and it is +50 instead. Whats the difference? Well dodge/counterattack/block are all hard capped at 125(+food and squadleader if it appllies). If that is a % there would be no reason to have the cap even that high. 125% is more than 100%.
I could possible see it being 50% bonus from your current skill. +100 becomes +50. However for people that don't have the skill even a +100% food is next to useless. Since you did counterattack I find it hard to believe the increase in misses was just based entirely on luck. I agree with you in that the food is really working.
soulfire77
Mon Apr 05, 2004 11:55 am
#4
As a chef/swordsman I would sugest that you dont use dodge foods. With the slower attack time that you have with a hammer, any time youhave a counterattack chance it is a free hit. Free hits are good with a hammer : ) Best bet would be to replace the fill with an accuracy bonus food (Snow Cake?)
MuttonJedi
Mon Apr 05, 2004 1:44 pm
#5
I was using a power hammer and 2h cleaver for this.
I agree that dodge is probably applied before counterattack, but I still expect the ratio of counterattacks to hits should be the same, since both of those have passed the dodge check. In my case, when the hits dropped from 720 to 480 I would have expected the counterattacks to drop from 74 to something around 49.
My thought with the 50% is that everyone has some base chance to dodge that goes up with the dodge skill, and this increases that chance by 50%. So if a no-defense player has 10% chance to dodge, this would make them dodge 15% of the time. A player with high dodge skill might have 30% chance to dodge, and this would make it 45%. Well, that was what I was hoping to confirm with this test, but it doesn't seem to fit.
The only reason I didn't think it was a +50 to dodge skill is that the description when you examine it looks pretty clear that its a % value (yeah, I know - bad idea to trust the description
). That, and the fact that it is a 20 minute, 25 filling food and similar foods like Vegeparsine only go up to about +25 max.
Mutton
I agree that dodge is probably applied before counterattack, but I still expect the ratio of counterattacks to hits should be the same, since both of those have passed the dodge check. In my case, when the hits dropped from 720 to 480 I would have expected the counterattacks to drop from 74 to something around 49.
My thought with the 50% is that everyone has some base chance to dodge that goes up with the dodge skill, and this increases that chance by 50%. So if a no-defense player has 10% chance to dodge, this would make them dodge 15% of the time. A player with high dodge skill might have 30% chance to dodge, and this would make it 45%. Well, that was what I was hoping to confirm with this test, but it doesn't seem to fit.
The only reason I didn't think it was a +50 to dodge skill is that the description when you examine it looks pretty clear that its a % value (yeah, I know - bad idea to trust the description
). That, and the fact that it is a 20 minute, 25 filling food and similar foods like Vegeparsine only go up to about +25 max.Mutton
Numen
Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:45 pm
#6
Ok This is my understanding of this data and what it means. Almost all of what below is based on assumptions. 1 set of data definately isn't proof but there is an obvious change in the hits to make it seem like the food is working.
Without Pie Buff
720 hits (73%)
196 misses (20%)
74 hit-but-counterattack (7%)
With Pie Buff
480 hits (56%)
323 misses (39%)
17 hit-but-counterattack (2%)
720 hits (73%)
196 misses (20%)
74 hit-but-counterattack (7%)
With Pie Buff
480 hits (56%)
323 misses (39%)
17 hit-but-counterattack (2%)
Trial 1 Total Attacks = 990
Trial2 Total Attacks = 820
I'll compare it 2 ways. First I'll assume this is the order Ranged/Melee Defense, Dodge, Counterattack
Trial 1 all 196 should have missed because of ranged/melee defenses
Defenses 20% effect
Counter Attack (74/(990-196) 9.3% effect
Trial 2 I will assume the same 20% are based on defenses
Defenses 20% effect 164 misses it accounts for
Dodge 323-164=159 159/(820-164) 24.2% Effect
CounterAttack 17/(820-323) 2.9% Effect
Trial 1 all 196 should have missed because of ranged/melee defenses
Counter Attack (74/(990)) 7.5% effect
Defenses 196/(990-74) 21.3% effect
Trial2
Dodge 193 Attacks 23.5% Effect
Counter Attack (17/(820-Dodge)) 2.7% effect
Defenses (323-Dodge)/(820-17-Dodge) 21.3% effect Which is130 Attacks
Either way the increase in food was 20%+ which IMO is very significant.
I have a hard time believeing that everyone has a 15%ish chance to dodge attacks. I have seen estimates closer to 1-3% which to me is a lot more accurate. Thats my only basis on why I think the test in the food bonus is wrong at that is actually is a +50 dodge.
Numen
Tue Apr 06, 2004 12:01 am
#7
soulfire77 wrote:
As a chef/swordsman I would sugest that you dont use dodge foods. With the slower attack time that you have with a hammer, any time youhave a counterattack chance it is a free hit. Free hits are good with a hammer : ) Best bet would be to replace the fill with an accuracy bonus food (Snow Cake?)
Are you under the impression that counterattack actually counterattacks?
In real life that would be true, but in the devs world Dodge==Counterattack==Block. All 3 do the exact same thing. Dodge would probably be the most accurate description of what currently happens as it doesn't slow down your attack at all. Block should require some animation of you actually blocking the weapon or blaster fire. Counter attack should attack the attacker but that doesn't happen.
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