Chef Archive
Thread: new top 5 chef issues...
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Dsabre
Sat Jan 17, 2004 8:02 pm
#1
ok, yeah with the revamp coming...hopefully all of our earlier top 5 issues will no longer be around...but with the devs still showing no signs of changing their ways about giving explanations until its too late, and given that we're all pretty crazy asking for other professions to get things in our top 5...here's a slightly more greedy version of our top 5...
1) information: the lack of information about critical things like resources, to help speed along the testing of the upcoming chef revamp is appauling. if the devs are going to delay the release of the patch because something just isn't working...fine. but at least tell us what we should be gathering, and what kind of stats to focus on so that we can gather the resources on TC NOW!!! resource shifts for organics are such that maybe 1 or 2 out of all the planets/types of flora are actually "good" quality. finding the crap quality to test that end out is very easy, and quick, but testing the high end takes time...time that we need to be spending now, rather than later.
2) one at a time vs. all at once: patching large amounts of things all at the same time has its advantages...but so does patching over smaller chunks as they are ready. this is particularly true for the chef revamp. tailors, BE's, scouts, and artisans are all getting things with our revamp...but does everyone have to get their new stuff at the same time...no. this is particularly true for scouts, and tailors. I don't see any game breaking issues, or much need for testing new tailor schems...nor do I see any major game breaking issues that could arise from patching over the new tailor schems, and the scout milking ability earlier than the rest of the stuff.
3) easily pleased...but we aren't dumb: its true, chefs are easily pleased...with little more than the most basic, ambiguous, and uncertain terms used to describe the actual chef changes...chefs have been a happy lot for more than a month now. we're easy to please...but we're not dumb. we can tell when we're being ignored, and we also remember well the dark days of the months of food bugs. even the most ardent of defenders of the devs have begun to faulter, and thats not a good sign for SOE. chefs aren't really asking for much. we'd simply like to know what we'll need in order to test the new revamp schematics ahead of time so that we can prepare for it, and give it a proper test...
4) this is all we have: while other professions may have high demands...no other profession has as high of a demand volume wise than chef...to this end, many chefs have to use all their lots just for factories, and storage...and without a 2nd account (no profession should be forced to do this) no chef would be able to keep up with the demand of a high traffic area...well no chef without a pa to donate lots at least. yes volume is good...but lets see a ws, or as deal with customers that only want crates...ws: "yes I have many fine guns on my vendor" cust: "I only want crates of flamethrowers" ws: "sorry I don't have any...they sell out very quickly, and take a while to make" cust: "I want it now...why does your vendor never have any!!!"...repeat x 20 per week = ws that has just quit being a ws. suffice it to say...that without spending almost all of your time gathering resources, starting up factories, and restocking vendors...theres going to be a lot of people yelling at you. and even if you do...theres hardly any time to get into pvp, or the gcw...or the monthly story arcs...or well any of the other fun things to do.
5) chefs are people to: yes we get cranky, nasty, and plain old mean...but lets look at what chefs have had to put up with...factory food stack bug: duration 1 month, fix came with major publish, no acknowledgement directly from a dev until the patchnotes...if you can call that an acknowledgement. food stack bug: duration 1 month, fix again comes with a major publish...even though it was reported working just fine 2 weeks before the publish was pushed to live, and other things got hotfixed that were pushed to TC after the food stack bug fix was. broken schematics...until the most recent publish...chefs still had a broken schematic....none of the other professions did...and yet the devs once more said nothing, until it actually went to live.
that being said...if it weren't for SirVimes I doubt there'd be any chefs left at this point who knew enough to be able to test the chef revamp....and chefs would be outnumbered by jedi 10:1 atm....and thats counting holo grinders. the only other professions that really comes close to lack of responses from a dev at this point would be pikemen, and tailors.
yeah, the devs can quote that overly complicated stuff about how to deal with an MMO community BS...but the simple truth about that is it applies to people asking for features, and new things to be added to the game...not to people who are just wondering whats going on, or people who would like a better explanation than "scheduling snag"...or even to people who would simply like dev acknowledgement of a bug...these types of people are completely different on a very basic level...those that ask for new things want to be surprised...even if they won't say it...the ones who would simply like an explanation, or to know that something is being done, they don't want to be surprised...at all.
the chef community is probably the weirdest wackiest profession community on these forums...but at least thats one thing the devs can't break, or put on hold....*crosses fingers hoping they really can't*...
1) information: the lack of information about critical things like resources, to help speed along the testing of the upcoming chef revamp is appauling. if the devs are going to delay the release of the patch because something just isn't working...fine. but at least tell us what we should be gathering, and what kind of stats to focus on so that we can gather the resources on TC NOW!!! resource shifts for organics are such that maybe 1 or 2 out of all the planets/types of flora are actually "good" quality. finding the crap quality to test that end out is very easy, and quick, but testing the high end takes time...time that we need to be spending now, rather than later.
2) one at a time vs. all at once: patching large amounts of things all at the same time has its advantages...but so does patching over smaller chunks as they are ready. this is particularly true for the chef revamp. tailors, BE's, scouts, and artisans are all getting things with our revamp...but does everyone have to get their new stuff at the same time...no. this is particularly true for scouts, and tailors. I don't see any game breaking issues, or much need for testing new tailor schems...nor do I see any major game breaking issues that could arise from patching over the new tailor schems, and the scout milking ability earlier than the rest of the stuff.
3) easily pleased...but we aren't dumb: its true, chefs are easily pleased...with little more than the most basic, ambiguous, and uncertain terms used to describe the actual chef changes...chefs have been a happy lot for more than a month now. we're easy to please...but we're not dumb. we can tell when we're being ignored, and we also remember well the dark days of the months of food bugs. even the most ardent of defenders of the devs have begun to faulter, and thats not a good sign for SOE. chefs aren't really asking for much. we'd simply like to know what we'll need in order to test the new revamp schematics ahead of time so that we can prepare for it, and give it a proper test...
4) this is all we have: while other professions may have high demands...no other profession has as high of a demand volume wise than chef...to this end, many chefs have to use all their lots just for factories, and storage...and without a 2nd account (no profession should be forced to do this) no chef would be able to keep up with the demand of a high traffic area...well no chef without a pa to donate lots at least. yes volume is good...but lets see a ws, or as deal with customers that only want crates...ws: "yes I have many fine guns on my vendor" cust: "I only want crates of flamethrowers" ws: "sorry I don't have any...they sell out very quickly, and take a while to make" cust: "I want it now...why does your vendor never have any!!!"...repeat x 20 per week = ws that has just quit being a ws. suffice it to say...that without spending almost all of your time gathering resources, starting up factories, and restocking vendors...theres going to be a lot of people yelling at you. and even if you do...theres hardly any time to get into pvp, or the gcw...or the monthly story arcs...or well any of the other fun things to do.
5) chefs are people to: yes we get cranky, nasty, and plain old mean...but lets look at what chefs have had to put up with...factory food stack bug: duration 1 month, fix came with major publish, no acknowledgement directly from a dev until the patchnotes...if you can call that an acknowledgement. food stack bug: duration 1 month, fix again comes with a major publish...even though it was reported working just fine 2 weeks before the publish was pushed to live, and other things got hotfixed that were pushed to TC after the food stack bug fix was. broken schematics...until the most recent publish...chefs still had a broken schematic....none of the other professions did...and yet the devs once more said nothing, until it actually went to live.
that being said...if it weren't for SirVimes I doubt there'd be any chefs left at this point who knew enough to be able to test the chef revamp....and chefs would be outnumbered by jedi 10:1 atm....and thats counting holo grinders. the only other professions that really comes close to lack of responses from a dev at this point would be pikemen, and tailors.
yeah, the devs can quote that overly complicated stuff about how to deal with an MMO community BS...but the simple truth about that is it applies to people asking for features, and new things to be added to the game...not to people who are just wondering whats going on, or people who would like a better explanation than "scheduling snag"...or even to people who would simply like dev acknowledgement of a bug...these types of people are completely different on a very basic level...those that ask for new things want to be surprised...even if they won't say it...the ones who would simply like an explanation, or to know that something is being done, they don't want to be surprised...at all.
the chef community is probably the weirdest wackiest profession community on these forums...but at least thats one thing the devs can't break, or put on hold....*crosses fingers hoping they really can't*...
SirVimes
Sat Jan 17, 2004 9:14 pm
#2
Dsabre wrote:
2) one at a time vs. all at once: patching large amounts of things all at the same time has its advantages...but so does patching over smaller chunks as they are ready. this is particularly true for the chef revamp. tailors, BE's, scouts, and artisans are all getting things with our revamp...but does everyone have to get their new stuff at the same time...no. this is particularly true for scouts, and tailors. I don't see any game breaking issues, or much need for testing new tailor schems...nor do I see any major game breaking issues that could arise from patching over the new tailor schems, and the scout milking ability earlier than the rest of the stuff.
I am going to stay out of this (although agree for the most part) but I really have to disagree with #2.
This game is an increadibly complex mix of systems. TH said to me recently this is not software development, it is enterprise development.
That bug that cause everybody to die after the buff wore off...the developers did not even touch chef buffs. They were working on dancer and musician buffs, and something they did with that is wht ruined the buffs for everybody else. Which is why the internal testers did not see it in time...they were looking at one part of the system instead of the big picture.
I do trust the developers enough that if they think this is the best way to do this, I am not going to argue. Nobody knows this system better than they do.
DashZero
Sat Jan 17, 2004 9:38 pm
#3
Thats what test center is supposed to be for. However frankly it doesnt appear test is for testing game issues so much as seeing if loading the patch crashes the server or something. We are going to get our revamp with like what 1 week of testing to it? Thats not exactly much in the way of testing since we probably have less than 10 master maybe less than 5 master chefs on test (sorry I dont know how many) who wont even know in advance what materials they need and assuming they can find some scout wiling to go milk cows for milk. But then again...the bug you are talking about was on test and they knew about it but pushed it live anyway. Its rather apparant to me that they really have no hesitations about pushing bugged material live. I mean...buffs killed people? Thats about as major a bug as they come other than causing the game to not run. The problem was identified on test...but that was too late? Naw, I may be a few things, but Im not rock stupid. IMO they didnt want to delay other stuff so they ruined the game for a month to meet a deadline. (kudos to mgmt for meeting their all important deadline /rolls eyes) I personally believe that unless the food made the servers crash, we will see on live whatever they put on test no matter how screwed up it is. Therefore test doesnt really have much meaning. And quite obviously their internal testers are not testing things in full context of the game so they *should* be relying on test. I have to agree, in a case such as this where testing will be so limited, their are shooting themselves in the foot by not patching it to wait for something else...but then again...I guess once its patched to test its too late to fix whats messed up anyway so what difference does it make. Test center does not equal test center.
SirVimes wrote:
That bug that cause everybody to die after the buff wore off...the developers did not even touch chef buffs. They were working on dancer and musician buffs, and something they did with that is wht ruined the buffs for everybody else. Which is why the internal testers did not see it in time...they were looking at one part of the system instead of the big picture.
Dsabre
Sat Jan 17, 2004 11:06 pm
#4
SirVimes wrote:I am going to stay out of this (although agree for the most part) but I really have to disagree with #2.
the problem with the buff bug system was likely that they also changed it so that all buffs (chef included) healed for the same amount that they buffed...they added that bit in along with the musician/dancer mind buffs...and I doubt that the appearance of new buffs caused it...but rather a tweek to the way existing buffs/new buffs are applied. if they told you they didn't touch anything to do with the chef buffs...they must have forgotten that they added both changes to live at the same time and that chef buffs would also be affected by a change to the way buffs work in general. scouts milking is a completely new system...or would be related to harvesting. new schematics they've done quite often, and I don't think they've ever had any problems with them (city buildings for archs, new pets for BE's...well this one was buggy for different reasons).
publishes are fun, they provide a great rush of things to do all at once...but look at what the game is like when people know theres something new/better coming. they stop and wait...and wait...and wait. some chefs may have seen slowing business...some more than others. I think that this has less to do with more chefs, and more to do with more and more people learning that theres this new chef revamp coming, and that foods are going to get a lot better...or at least more varied and interesting.
I'm against hot fixing new things...which the devs are also against...hmmm well that doesn't happen too often...but anyway nikii is right...TC is there for a reason...and theres nothing in a profession revamp that would mandate it being held back for something like a new story arc, or another profession.
Dsabre
Sat Jan 17, 2004 11:22 pm
#5
"This game is an increadibly complex mix of systems. TH said to me recently this is not software development, it is enterprise development." -SirVimes
forgot to add this bit into my previous post...
TH would be correct about this...software development requires a setup similar to what development companies are used to. commitees, management, processes, etc. however I think that it is a different kind of enterprise development than what SOE believes it to be. MMO's are based off of MUD's, MOO's, MUSH's, etc...yeah those old text based telnet games/systems.
in the race to get better graphics, and turn a profit...they've forgotten a very important role which is present in every other MMO...but oddly enough not present in SWG...the role of the "imm"....but thats getting into the whole CSR issue...
anyway, MUD's are much simpler, but I imagine that the core systems are essentially the same in terms of setup...you have a combat system, a "spell" system, etc. each of these is essentially a seperate piece of software, and it becomes enterprise management since you have to tie all of them together.
changes made to 1 system would not affect something in another system...i.e. buff bugs wouldn't directly affect combat, even tho it might indirectly affect it.
the developers would know "how" to change something, or "how" to add something...but invariably it is the players that know "how" to implement something (how to take it from test...to live)....chefs may know how to make the best food...but we don't know the specifics on when to eat the food, how to time it so that you conserve it as much as possible, or how to use it to surprise an opponent...these things would be known by our customers...the combat professions.
ahhhh there I've gotten my venting for the day done...that should keep me satisfied for a few days...maybe.
forgot to add this bit into my previous post...
TH would be correct about this...software development requires a setup similar to what development companies are used to. commitees, management, processes, etc. however I think that it is a different kind of enterprise development than what SOE believes it to be. MMO's are based off of MUD's, MOO's, MUSH's, etc...yeah those old text based telnet games/systems.
in the race to get better graphics, and turn a profit...they've forgotten a very important role which is present in every other MMO...but oddly enough not present in SWG...the role of the "imm"....but thats getting into the whole CSR issue...
anyway, MUD's are much simpler, but I imagine that the core systems are essentially the same in terms of setup...you have a combat system, a "spell" system, etc. each of these is essentially a seperate piece of software, and it becomes enterprise management since you have to tie all of them together.
changes made to 1 system would not affect something in another system...i.e. buff bugs wouldn't directly affect combat, even tho it might indirectly affect it.
the developers would know "how" to change something, or "how" to add something...but invariably it is the players that know "how" to implement something (how to take it from test...to live)....chefs may know how to make the best food...but we don't know the specifics on when to eat the food, how to time it so that you conserve it as much as possible, or how to use it to surprise an opponent...these things would be known by our customers...the combat professions.
ahhhh there I've gotten my venting for the day done...that should keep me satisfied for a few days...maybe.
BranrStarkiller
Sat Jan 17, 2004 11:30 pm
#6
Dsabre wrote:
chefs may know how to make the best food...but we don't know the specifics on when to eat the food, how to time it so that you conserve it as much as possible, or how to use it to surprise an opponent...these things would be known by our customers...the combat professions.
LOL add me to this category: Fri night I went hunting for the first time with my guild in armor, and ended up sitting there staring at these crates of food I was carrying and wondering "Ok, what do I eat/drink first?" I had even forgotten to bring any Fishak, which is sad considering it is the #1 seller. Now I know WHY it is the #1 seller
.
SirVimes
Sun Jan 18, 2004 12:10 pm
#7
Yeah well....I am staying out of this one. I do strongly agree with Nikii that the test center could be more effeciently used....a lot more! Letting such a game stopping post go to live....but whatever.
For the rest...I deffinitely see your points of view...but I can see the developer's points of view.
Although, just one note:
"changes made to 1 system would not affect something in another system...i.e. buff bugs wouldn't directly affect combat, even tho it might indirectly affect it."
How many of our buffs are going to be affecting combat? Giving people bunuses in combat...and if those bonuses are broken....it will effect combat severly. I remember during beta, a lone dewback was causing the servers to crash.
BlueMorgoth
Sun Jan 18, 2004 3:47 pm
#8
I agree with SirVimes' comments. Large-scale systems have all sorts of oddball interdependencies that even the developers are not aware of when they first write the code. This was the point of my posts in TC recently in the GCW threads and the brain-dead attitudes taken by some of the "testers" there. After you have confirmed that your local (unit) tests work, don't just continue to test it. Now you have a responsibility to go out and test things that are not directly associated with your specific needs. Think of it like an onion - test your bits, test things which are now directly associated with your interests, then progressively move further and further away from your core interest until you get to the point of having nothing at all to do with it.
dominionalpha
Sun Jan 18, 2004 4:55 pm
#9
Yup - game is complex - totally agree
Counterpoint - Milk - quite possibly the most bone headed mistake I've seen in all of SWG crafting, except for schematic typos in CM that took months to fix (oh man, I gotta change that 13 to a 3)...
Quite simply put - devs make mistakes. We pay for them. Designers make mistakes. We pay for them.
I guess I'm revoking all my prior "most needed" posts from before and consolidating it into one "most needed" item:I want a closely knit Design/Development team that can Listen to correspondants and quickly resolve issues that are deemed "fixworthy." Stupid mistakes need to be fixed 1-3 week time periods, not 1-3 month time periods. I think we deserve that for our $15 a month.
I know that there are many other problems in this game other than gripes about how a profession sucks. Exploits, Balancing, etc. And I know it costs a lot of money to run the SWG operation. I'm just pointing out my grumpiness to the chef situation.
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