Chef Archive
Thread: Chef buffs suck because schematics are bugged?
http://dynamic6.gamespy.com/~swgcraft/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2495
In this thread, they are talking about crafting a stimpack, but it definitely applies to all crafters. I posted a message in that thread about how the Bofa Treat didn't follow the pattern they discovered at all. So, I did some more testing today with Exo-Protein Wafers, which takes 8 meat and 7 hide. These are the ingredients I used:
Meat: 999 Flavor, 947 Potential Energy, 923 Overall Quality (No you can't have any :-))
Hide: 917 Overall Quality
Now, this, my friends, should produce a godly wafer. According to the formula discovered when crafting the stimpack, the maximum experimental flavor and texture SHOULD be:
[(999/3)+(947/3)+((917*7 + 923*8)/15)/3]/1000 = 95.54%
The observed maximum is only 52%. So, with nearly optimum ingredients I can only get 52% for flavor and texture? This is certainly bugged. I've noticed this same pattern with all the food I've crafted: the max experimental flavor and texture is less than max experimental nutritional value which is less than max experimental quantity.
If anyone has ever gotten over 52% max flavor and texture on a recipe, please post what schematic and what ingredients you used. My theory at this point is that the qualities listed on the schematic are wrong, and that they changed the display, but not the formula. Perhaps one of the old dependencies is potency, which is now gone, and a zero is used instead?
--A very distressed chef
I dont know but I think flavor and texture is a combination of 2 stats decay resistance and flavor
because I have a couple of drinks that get really high flavor and texture when I use gemstones which have 999 decay resistance
I posted a while ago and was more or less ignored by the community about this issue :/
It could be various factors, like effectively having decay resistance or even another stat act as flavor or nutritional value. It could be an invisible stat, that the game considers there but is not related to the stats we see. It could also be that certain combinations of ressources are just more effective than the numbers would've let you know. Try experimenting with Stewed Gwouch. Instead of using twice the same organic try using hide or wood as one of them. You'll get much more interresting than if you use only veggies, meat, fruits or cereals. Or at least those are the results I got up to now. Finaly it could be that some ingredients are considered better for certain schematics. Like in the case of Gwouch, hide as a bonus value to it cause it's hide.
Atm I tend to think that certain combos of ressources work better together than others, giving flavor abonus. When you think about it, it makes sense. Irl some flavors just mix better than others, and the sum of both is superior their individual values put together.
any stats that aren't posessed by the material being used are effectively 0's.
So the stats for the hide are: OQ: 900something, flavor: 0, PE: 0. This is why you're getting the 52%.
The only thing you can do is, where something needs organics use a material that posesses the properties required... It really sucks, but one reason our buffs suck is also because they use a lot of materials that dont have these properties... how am I meant to make something good if all its components have 0 PE?
There seems to be more to it though, since though most items have 33% on each of the effects the different max experimentation values max out at different places
J2xC wrote:any stats that aren't posessed by the material being used are effectively 0's.
So the stats for the hide are: OQ: 900something, flavor: 0, PE: 0. This is why you're getting the 52%.
The only thing you can do is, where something needs organics use a material that posesses the properties required... It really sucks, but one reason our buffs suck is also because they use a lot of materials that dont have these properties... how am I meant to make something good if all its components have 0 PE?
This is incorrect. If you read the thread on swgcraft.com in the original post, you'll see that, based on observations from crafting other things, that an item contributes only to the categories that it has properties in. They are NOT zeros like the "advanced" guide implies; zero is used for a category only if NONE of the ingredients have that property.
This explains Yashamaru's observations with the Stewed Gwouch (and why, for Stewed Gwouch, flora structural components are your best friend). Let's look at an example. The recipe for Stewed Gwouch is 20 water, 25 organic, 5 organic. Let's say for the 5 organic, I use my godly meat from above (Flav/PE/OQ 999/947/923), and the water has an overall quality of 800. Now here's where it get's interesting. Which is better for the final ingredient:
1. Some soft wood with an overall quality of 900
OR
2. Some wheat with flavor 100, potential energy 100, and overall quality 900
The answer is #1! If the advanced guide were correct, the answer would be #2, since the soft wood would be interpreted as flavor 0 and potential energy 0. Try it though, and you'll see that the soft wood is the winner (just ask Yashamaru!). In effect, by using something that doesn't have flavor at all, you're letting the flavor of the meat "shine through," letting it count for the full 33% of the final product. But since it has a flavor component, using the wheat will "dilute" the flavor of the meat, i.e., its flavor will be used in the weighted average.
There seems to be more to it though, since though most items have 33% on each of the effects the different max experimentation values max out at different places
Agreed. It is possible that the flavor is intentionally hard to increase. However, the max experimental flavor and texture should be 100% if my ingredients average out to 1000 in all categories. I got well over a 900 average and topped out at 52%. This is a critical bug for chefs; I think all the food schematics are broken in some fundamental way.
I think its hilarious that the devs wrote a worse guide than an outside fansite... Goes to show how much some of them know about their own product... I wonder if #2 is how its supposed to be, but this is actually one of the main bugs...
There are definitely some major bugs a few I've spotted so far:
-Component quality making no difference. Try making your sunburns with highly experimented starshines, and with unexperimented ones. No difference. Same applies to anything with components, so all drinks with components aren't reaching their potential maximum.
-Some drinks maxing out far too early. I made some Garrmorl(or whatever that wookie liquour was called). Once I reached 17% experimentation on the buff quality, the buff quality stopped going up. The results were TERRIBLE.
It's actually quite possible that the theoretical values of the buffs are way better, since the duration experimentation bar cant be properly experimented(even at master I'm only getting 4% increase for a great) you cant get decent durations(and this bar also reduces filling... so if you could experiment it properly you could get long lasting buffs that you could fit 3 or even 4 of at a time, to give some really powerful effects).
I do agree that its *possible* the only reason the buffs are sucking is because of bugged schematics.
And like you mention in that thread, our schematics are supposed to divide evenly (33%) between Flavor/Texture, nutritional value, and quantity. But usually I get more quantity than nutri value.
Maybe if I can get some time in between running to harvestors and making Ithorian mists I can test a little.
J2xC wrote:I think its hilarious that the devs wrote a worse guide than an outside fansite... Goes to show how much some of them know about their own product... I wonder if #2 is how its supposed to be, but this is actually one of the main bugs...
I hope not. The way it currently works (is supposed to work?) is the only way that makes sense. If it worked the way the advanced guide suggests, you would be penalized off the top by the recipe itself. For example if a recipe calls for mineral, you would be immediately penalized you just because no mineral has flavor! Fortunately, this doesn't seem to be the case.
There are definitely some major bugs a few I've spotted so far:
-Component quality making no difference. Try making your sunburns with highly experimented starshines, and with unexperimented ones. No difference. Same applies to anything with components, so all drinks with components aren't reaching their potential maximum.
I think this is by design, but I could be wrong. This wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.
-Some drinks maxing out far too early. I made some Garrmorl(or whatever that wookie liquour was called). Once I reached 17% experimentation on the buff quality, the buff quality stopped going up. The results were TERRIBLE.
Almost certainly a bug.
It's actually quite possible that the theoretical values of the buffs are way better, since the duration experimentation bar cant be properly experimented(even at master I'm only getting 4% increase for a great) you cant get decent durations(and this bar also reduces filling... so if you could experiment it properly you could get long lasting buffs that you could fit 3 or even 4 of at a time, to give some really powerful effects).
Ugh, I can only hope this is yet another bug.
I do agree that its *possible* the only reason the buffs are sucking is because of bugged schematics.
I am becoming more and more convinced the more I craft things other than food. I've confirmed that everything works exactly as expected for survey and crafting tools. Maybe these are some of the experimentation bugs that are supposedly fixed for the next patch. I'm not really expecting it, but my fingers are crossed...
Spiced Tea: 5 water, 4 mineral, 2 organic
Aitha: 4 water, 3 mineral, 4 meat
Charde: 5 water, 5 mineral, 5 organic
The ingredients I used for all:
Water: OQ 884
Mineral: OQ 944
Meat: Flav/PE/OQ 999/947/923
The results:
Spiced Tea Theoretical Max:
[(999/3) + (947/3) + (((923*2 + 884*5 + 944*4)/11)/3)]/1000 = 95.3%
Spiced Tea Observed Max:
93%
Aitha Theoretical Max:
[(999/3) + (947/3) + (((923*4 + 884*4 + 944*3)/11)/3)]/1000 = 95.4%
Aitha Observed Max:
94%
Charde Theoretical Max:
[(999/3) + (947/3) + (((923*5 + 884*5 + 944*5)/15)/3)]/1000 = 95.4%
Charde Observed Max:
Unknown, I don't have that many experiment points. Looks the same as Aitha, well over 90%.
So, for drinks, the theoretical formulas will get you pretty close, within a few percent. The differences probably have to do with the way subcalculations are rounded off. As expected, the maximum for each experimental category is the same for drinks, except for the experimental quantity which is one tiny bar less than flavor/texture and nutritional value.
So, unlike food, drinks seem to be working fine. No wonder every chef in the universe is a mixologist! I tried a few other foods, and they follow the same depressing pattern as the Exo-Protein Wafers...
SirVimes wrote:
This testing you are doing (thanks for doing it by the way), did you do this on the test center? Test center has the "fix" for experimentation, so it might be different on the test server.
No, these tests are from Bloodfin. However, the values I'm concered with are the values BEFORE experimentation is actually done; they are the calculations that determine the MAX value you can experiment to.
However, I was actually able to log into TestCenter yesterday, but since you have to start a new character, I was only able to make Bofa Treats. They still give the pattern of results as the live servers (really low flavor/texture, somewhat low nutritional value, high quantity). This is based only on the initial percentages (which are always proportional to the maximum experimentation percentage); I wasn't able to actually experiment since I didn't actually have a food/chem crafting tool.
Based on this test, I'm fairly certain that the patch won't fix this problem.
Pecos wrote:I'm lazy.
/agree
Pecos wrote:
Take your formulas, substitute a "0" for one of your stats and see if the result matches what you're seeing.
All experimental categories supposedly depend on the same stats of a resource, so if this were the case, all experimental categories would be affected the same way, not just flavor/texture. IOW, messing with any single value of flavor, PE, or OQ for any of the resources could not explain the results I'm seeing.