Chef Archive
Thread: Debate thread: Filling remaining on cloning
sciguyCO wrote:
Ok, this has come up in various posts around the board, so I wanted to give everyone a place to bring their arguments, viewpoints, and opinions.
Topic: Should stomach filling remain on the player after cloning/rezzing?
To start it off, here's my position:
Filling should remain in your stomach after cloning. The filling is the cost associated with using the food, both in limiting how many food buffs you can have active at one time (limited stomach space) and in limiting how often you can re-apply food buffs (fixed digestion rate).
Stomach filling is the only drawback to food.
Why do we need more than that one drawback? You must choose what to take. one cant take 3 brandies, 4 canaps and a vercupty , the stomach is a very good limiter and makes you choose. Food is in the game. its controlled by filling. what more do you need?
Doctor buffs have to be applied in a medcenter, camp, or with a med-droid; require mastering an elite profession to apply; require many specific resource types, and the buff process can take a minute or twofor all 6 buffable stats (although Havla reduces this).
Doc buffs are far more powerfull. Food must be taken carefully, again choosing what stats/capabilities you want to enhance further. but NO less important to the game.
I think what should be done by players is to look at filling in a different way. It's not primarily a space cost (66 fill vercupti + 25 fill nutricake, darn can't squeeze in a veghash). It's a time cost (20m before using another vercupti, 7.5m before using another nutricake, gotta wait a minute or two before I have room for a veghash).
Time sinks are a bane in this game.alive, time limits the amount of food you are using. FINE. even GOOD.the way it worksis correct and balanced. when u are alive.
BUT when u die, you are corect, this is a time sink. a terrible, time sink. if i die full, i am out of the game for 30 minuts. WHY? all the players above who said "big deal , so you wait a bit" or "do you want to master a prof in 5 minuts?" etc etc obviousy do not have kids, do not need to hit deadlines etc. also, if i am with a group, and getting a group together can take an hour sometimes, one death, and thats it??yes i depend on food, (for me its mind. and my mon-cal mind is maxed) i cant fight seiously without food. WHAT YOU SEE AS AN ADVANTAGE, I SEE AS THE NUMBER ONE PAIN IN THE ASS IN THIS GAME.
I think that the filling/cloning design is fair. Sure you can't behopped up on Brandy + vercupti + canape100% the time, but you're not meant to be. If you die, in some sense you made a mistake (even if it was justbeing in the wrong place at the wrong time), and it should cause you some inconvenience. Having to wait a maximum of 30 minutes while going without whatever food combo you prefer for is not the end of the world.
says you. for me it can end my night. ruin my play exp. dieing should reset you. period. if i died, why should i be penalized for "in some sense you made a mistake" as you said. why? i die, pay my decay, pay up insurance, and i shoudl be allowed to get back in the game. i cant even buff myself if i die full!! my mind hits zero in secs. all this is a horrible time sink, that truely hurts game play.
other time sinks like shuttle waiting, driving 5k to the villiage, geo cave, DWB etc etc i can take. in all of these times, i am not playing, i am preparing to play, i am getting ready. i am chatting etc. but usually when you die, you are in the middle of combat, and this jsut stops you in your tracks.
Plz plz get this changed. dont allow filling to reset by logging, dont adjust teh timers, but if you clone?? cmon.
Message Edited by sciguyCO on 10-01-2004 05:07 PM
sciguyCO wrote:
Let's keep this going, but I do want to emphasize a couple things:
1) Food is different
To get rebuffed by a doctor, you have to find a player who's invested the 140 skill points (for Master doc) who's willing to spend a few minutes (less with Havla) and around 8-900 units of resources (plus the factory time to make subcomponents).
i dont need to find one, i AM one. and if i die full, i cant rebuff.
2) Not all foods can be "debuffed"
A common argument being put forward is that since the food buff is removed, removing the filling won't unbalance anything. This is wrong. A lot of foods have a filling cost that is "owed" past the time that the buff wears off. Time duration foods like Vercupti andCanape don't last until the filling wears off. snip
this is irelevent , sry. as long as you are alive, you are making choices. you are using a stratagy to time what food u ingest, etc etc. in no case, well in almost no case,when u are alive,are you totaly full, with NO efect left at all. and if you DID do this, it was YOUR choice. I never do this for instance. but if i did, i would plan for it. i would plan on a short fight, KNOWING IN ADVANCE I WILL HAVE TO SIT OUT. it comes down to choices. but when i die, i am full with NO choice.
i truley do not understand why you feel this is such a major game-balancing issue. its not. its just a pain. it wrecks fun. it takes needless time from play. and other than a very few philasophcal almost advantages, it does more harm than anything else.
remmeber that at base, its about choice. when you are alive - u can choose how to use your filliing. but when you die - reset it.NO additional control/penalty/punishment is needed.
Message Edited by Zaax on 11-11-2004 10:04 AM
sciguyCO wrote:Ok, this has come up in various posts around the board, so I wanted to give everyone a place to bring their arguments, viewpoints, and opinions.Topic: Should stomach filling remain on the player after cloning/rezzing?Ground rules:
- Personal attacks will not be tolerated. People have strong feelings about this, so it's occasionally gotten a little heated, but if you have to resort to name-calling then you might as well concede and let someone else pick up arguing your position. Ideas and positions can be attacked, the people giving the idea or promoting a position are off-limits.
- You're going to need to give reasons to back up your position. This is a debate, not a petition or a poll.
- If you are against filling remaining in the stomach, you are going to have to propose some other downside to food to balance it with other buff types. Right now the limited stomach size and fixed digestion rate are the only costs associated with using food for the customer (after they've paid us for it, that is).
- "Take it out because I don't like it", "Take it out so I get more business", and "Take it out because a clone's stomach shouldn't have anything in it" are not valid arguments (although they are certainly valid opinions that you can try to back up). The first two ignore game balance, and the third is silly: game balance trumps "in-game immersion" every time. Besides, everyone knows they should be bacta centers, not cloning centers.
To start it off, here's my position:
{Note: The discussion below assumes that 1) The digestion rate gets fixed to 30m per 100 filling and 2) the (confirmed) bug of non-stat buffs remaining after death goes away}
Filling should remain in your stomach after cloning. The filling is the cost associated with using the food, both in limiting how many food buffs you can have active at one time (limited stomach space) and in limiting how often you can re-apply food buffs (fixed digestion rate).
Stomach filling is the only drawback to food.
- Spices have their short duration (max is 10m) and the downer period.
- Entertainer buffs have to be applied in a cantina, hotel, theater, or camp; require mastering an elite profession to apply (for full power); cannot be applied during combat;and the buff process takes several minutes. Also (I am not personally positive about this) the buff timer is retained after cloning/rezzing.
- Doctor buffs have to be applied in a medcenter, camp, or with a med-droid; require mastering an elite profession to apply; require many specific resource types, and the buff process can take a minute or two for all 6 buffable stats (although Havla reduces this).
Food is portable, can be used by anyone with no skill point investment, can be used during combat, and has a wide range of useful effects. Give players any means of bypassing this drawback, and you allow them to get something for nothing.
Most arguments against remaining filling focus on "But I lose my buffs when I die, why shouldn't I lose the filling?". If you accept this argument, why should I still have filling in my stomach when my Vercupti wears off? I mean, I only get the HAM buff for 10m, why should I have to wait 10 more minutes after it wears off before I'm empty?
The reason you have to wait after the Vercupti wears off is that it's a powerful boost: +1200 HAM is nothing to sneeze at. So to balance that buff size, the devs said "Ok, you get this increase in power, but you can only use it once every 20m." Clearing stomach contents on death would give a player a way to bypass that 20m obligation.
I think what should be done by players is to look at filling in a different way. It's not primarily a space cost (66 fill vercupti + 25 fill nutricake, darn can't squeeze in a veghash). It's a time cost (20m before using another vercupti, 7.5m before using another nutricake, gotta wait a minute or two before I have room for a veghash). I'd say about half of the popular foods have a time commitment equal to the buff duration, at least considered one at a time: Brandy, Canape, Snow Cake, Pikatta Pie, Bivoli and Veghash can all be digested before the benefit wears off. Retaining the stomach filling after cloning means that death has some sting (you are still obligated to pay the time cost, but now you don't get the benefits). If the stomach cleared, then players would actually get rewarded for dying (they now have 100 points of stomach space they can fill up).
I think that the filling/cloning design is fair. Sure you can't be hopped up on Brandy + vercupti + canape 100% the time, but you're not meant to be. If you die, in some sense you made a mistake (even if it was just being in the wrong place at the wrong time), and it should cause you some inconvenience. Having to wait a maximum of 30 minutes while going without whatever food combo you prefer for is not the end of the world.
And just because it's a personal pet peeve:
Yes, I know clones shouldn't have the food from their original's previous meal in their stomach. They also take (in SW)10-15 years to mature, don't have the original's skills or memories, don't pop out of the cloning tube with their original's equipment, and probably shouldn't have access to their original's bank account. If you want one, it's only fair you take them all...
"Cloning" is a game mechanic, not a supporting argument. Think of storing clone data as paying a crack squad of NPC medics to rush your dying body into a bacta tank and you'll feel better.
Message Edited by sciguyCO on 10-01-2004 05:07 PM
Let me get this straight, you see this as being a game mechanic such as Doctors having to use droids of buff in a med center?
Sorry, but that is a horrible comparison and I'll have my post up later about this.
Disguisting even, I have a bad taste in my mouth.
Meplorium wrote:
Minotauro wrote:As someone who my chef isnt my "main" although i have been on him alot more lately then my other toon lol.Anyways, i used to pvp alot, and even though it might be a small percent of the total population, its the percent this affects most.That is a great point there that was missed. Not too many people PvP. The reason is because the system is rather flawed. PvP is all about your buffs and equipment, not about skill. It is also quick. You die, your done. If you aren't a power gamer with the uber equipment, PvP just to die quickly and be done isn't attractive.
There are two main events in any PvP type game that makes that game fun, killing and dieing. The more events you have in a game, the more exciting and hence fun it is. That means a lot of killing and dieing. To PvP you must be buffed, and those buffs need to be applied in a hurry to keep the pace of the game going.
If you aren't buffed you will die to a buffed opponent. This causes a sitution where once you lose, you are out of the game. You can try to fight back after cloning, but you are just going to die. I just don't see this as 'grief' by buffing and leveling the playing field against the guy that didn't die and is still buffed. Remember the game plays out the same for both people. All I see with a full stomach is that it ends the game. I just don't see where the abuse comes from. If you live longer than 7m, then you don't have that vercupti and you don't get a triple buff brandy unless you live 22m. I don't see clone zerging as an issue, especially if a PvP event was carefully planned out to allow both sides a cloning center. Setting up a game of capture the flag with a rebel banner in one house that everyone has admin on and an imp banner in another house with the same deal can be quite fun. However that needs to be fast placed and that means getting rebuffed fully in a hurry.
The current system unfortunetly relies fully on buffs to do anything, including using your professions' skills. It is a flawed system and the full stomach is one of those flaws.
Just a few other points, don't confuse game progression with game pace. Getting a jet pack is hard and has nothing to do with not being able to play your game for 30-45m just becaused you died. There are reasons for this downtime, but the reasoning behind the down times, although good, doesn't play as intended, hence this debate. They are mostly put in to allow for social interaction but how many people really talked to each other while waiting 9m 45s for the next shuttle? How many people actually strike up a conversation with the AFK entertainer? There are good intentions behind those down times but people just don't play them as intended. Balance passes are all about making adjustments base on how the game mechanics are played.
BTW personally, I can make it as fast as I can sell it. I don't see the 'more sales' as a good reason, rather a con. I hate empty vendors but this would make my vendor empty. It is needed for game pacing though.
I think the point about cloning and resing is a good one. If you res, you still have the stomach filling but no buffs. If you clone, you start fresh. This is a great way to balance cloning and resing. If you clone you take the decay and wounds but if you res, your stomach is still full. It would give people a hard choice between asking for a res or just cloning.
I was going to reply but Meparch said everything I was going to so.. /echo Meparch
Fights basicaly would take forever or just not end until everyone gets board and logs off.
And a good point was made in another forum about a clone would have an empty stomach, yes that is true but he/she also wouldn't have all the weapons and armour with them. So I'm sorry but if you clear the stomach I want to see corpse runs back in the game too.
Just my 2 cents
sfubar wrote:
Well I believe that filling should re-main. as much as it would benifit me for it to be removed for higher sales, it would cause too many problems with people dying, taking some spice + foods and running back into a fight.
Fights basicaly would take forever or just not end until everyone gets board and logs off.
And a good point was made in another forum about a clone would have an empty stomach, yes that is true but he/she also wouldn't have all the weapons and armour with them. So I'm sorry but if you clear the stomach I want to see corpse runs back in the game too.
Just my 2 cents
I would think chefs would want the stomach empty. More food/drink used, more business. Docs/musicians/dancers get to re-buff, TKMs can re-powerboost, you can re-spice (drugs still in the system yes?!?). Why not remove everything - including food/drink?
If the food/drink takes up filling after death then I should still get the benifit of the food/drink attributes.
Dying is bad. Having to repay for buffs, take a walk into the cantina and get rid of battle fatigue, and get permanent decay on the armor, maybe Aa'kuan Rings, maybe other rare and expensive things. But to also be forced to wait 45 minutes for the freshly drunk brandy to go out of the system just so artisans cant abuse bespin port is very narrowminded thinking. That should, in every sense, be a problem with BESPIN PORT, not with BRANDY. Thereby its BESPIN PORT that needs to be fixed.
All in all, I consider this 'balance' very lazy. It doesnt adress the specific problems, but instead add more problems andconfusionto the game.
Message Edited by JemyM on 01-27-2005 06:01 PM
Message Edited by JemyM on 01-27-2005 06:02 PM
Having very powerful ham buffs that can be used continuasly (if you don't die of course) and can be applied by ANYONE.
The last part is the most important part, and the reason for filling remaining, its not like buffs, you don't need a chef to apply the brandy or whatever to you, you can do it to yourself in the field.
So either we have high power buffs with a little downtime or we have crappy small buffs that may not even be worth the trouble of buying (then we'd all be up a creek). Thats the 2 choices, the devs aren't stupid enough to let us have both.
Higginsis wrote:
If the filling on death goes then the power of foods will have to be nerfed, for balance sake.
Vercupti 1000 h/a/m, 7 minutes, 22,5min to retake if you dont die, 5k per use
I say Vercupti in this case fix some of the current inbalance problem with Doctorsbuffs. Having a docbuff is required to survive, and for perm-overt knights, Vercupti is the only save since surviving unbuffed in SWG is currently impossible. Even a double vercupti (45min wait) cannot get near what you can get from a real buff thanks to the missing 2ndaries.
Message Edited by JemyM on 01-27-2005 06:48 PM
Doc buffs have there costs, food has there's. Its balanced.
It breaks down like this:
Doctor buffs = Powerful (too powerful imo) and long lasting. Needs a SP heavy prof apply. Also needs equipment to be able to apply anywhere
Foods = Medium Power = medium duration, can be applied anytime, any where by anyone (even in combat). Only limit is filling.
Spices = (this is how they should be, but currently aren't) Extreme power, short duration but with extreme drawbacks. Can be applied by anyone at anytime but have severe side effects.
The system as it stands works. Everything is kept in check and everything is balance (aside from spices, which will hopefully get sorted in the SMuggler revamp). Why risk changing it when it works perfectly well?
Higginsis wrote:
To get a doc buff you need a doctor to apply it. This takes skill points. Eating food does not.
Doc buffs have there costs, food has there's. Its balanced.
Grabbing a Doctors buff is easy. There are no short supply for the profession.
The reason why I pick a docbuff instead of Vercupti is becouse Vercupti only lasts 7 minutes after which I must wait 22-45minutes before I can use it again. I do not go in with the idea that I will die, so the food-remains-on-death do not stop me from taking a Vercupti. I take it out of last resort or becouse it might save me from dying, and thats it. Having food remaining or not doesnt effect this choice. Since I still decide NOT to take Vercupti, even if I do not even consider what happens after I die, I say its pretty much balanced already.
Lets say someone PvP. He wants to get back to battle as soon as possible, so insted of docbuff he takes double vercupti. This means that his foodbar is 100%, so no additional defenses can be gained through food, he have no 2ndary buffs and will kill himself with specials.