Carbineer Archive
Thread: Not a support class, a supported class
I don't think there's a class out there that will tell you that you don't need pets and/or buffs to be sucessful, and that they are in some way a support class. Ok so rifleman are a bit overpowered right now and pretty much stand on your own, and I think most everybody agrees that you carbineers need some (read a LOT) of loving, which you are hopefully getting this next patch.
As far as being a support class, the few specials you do have that work (like ranged KD) when used in conjuntion with other classes skills (like rifleman ranged dizzy) can be very useful (esp against enemy rifleman who have next to no KD or dizzy defense... unless of course they're defense stackers...)
To be perfectly honest with you, I don't know a whole lot about you carbineers (which is why I'm here, to learn 
) so take whatever I say with a grain of salt (or boulder, whatever)
as a new carbineer i can see some of your points.
but
i also know from reading the boards quite a bit, and keeping an eye on a few players whom i respect on Starsider, that Carbineer when played intelligently (even gimped as it is) can be quite an effective class. because of the HUGE ham costs, and the broken specails, i have come to reguard Carbineer as the 'thinking-fighter's' class.
some take up Combat Medic to become Zerg (the least skilled type of play there is. mindless suicide bombing).
some take up Pistols for the speed, accuracy and accessibility of weapons.
some take up Rifleman to use a brute force distance attack unmatched by anything.
still others take up TKA, Fencer or Swordsman to become 'tanks' and deal hearty damage to their opponents.
each of these classes (especially at the Master level) allows a player to spam a considerable amount of specials with little or no risk to themselves. add doctor buffs and they can go full tilt for 2 hours plus. (take a run through the Tusken Fort to see what i am talking about)
Carbineer is unique in that even at the Master level and evenDoc buffed, and Entertainer buffed, and spiced up and filled to the gills with food, Carbineers HAVE to be careful with their specials. they HAVE to choose the very best time to use them, and understand when discretion is the better part of valor.
we do not have the luxury of sitting back at 64m and picking off our opponentswith cannon powered mind shots and strafe shotslike riflemen, because our weapons are innacurate at that distance, they are a mid range weapon.
we do not have the luxury of spamming specials (even specials from other classes i.e.Last Ditch and/or LowBlow from the Dirty Fighting line of Smuggler)with a SUPER low HAM weapon like a Scout Blaster the way pistoleers do. if you chuckle at the though of a scout blaster doing any damage, dual a Pistoleer who has taken the dirty fighting line in Smuggler and the pistol line in Bounty Hunter. watch what an Eyeshot / Fireshot / Low Blow / Panic Shot / Last Ditch combo will do to you. yes there is about a 2 second delay between Panic Shot and Last Ditch, but that is negligible considering the fact that you are now blind, on fire, knocked down, and delayed for ten seconds..
we do not have the luxury of spamming our most devistating hits until our opponents just become overwhelmed and then subdued the way a TKM can spam UnarmedHit3 over and over and over and over after hitting you with a Dizzy / KD combo. the same concept, just different specials hold true for the other melee classes.
PLEASE DO NOT GET ME WRONG. i have great respect for ALL the classes. as many of you know, i play WAY too many characters. right now i have six, covering almost ALL of the professions. so please do not take this as a slam or an insult to ANY profession in the game. i am mearly pointing out one of the things that make Carbineer unique from the other classes.
it is because of the play style, the requirement of brute force, subtle tactics, bravery and discretion that i have come to reguard Carbineer as the 'thinking-fighter's' class. it requires one to keep in mind the damage one is doing to one's self ALMOST more than it requires the thought of damaging one's opponent. this my be my inexperience talking, but often i have to think 'what is this going to do to my HAM' before i even fire a special. i don't get that thought process with my other characters. i have to think 'how am i going to kill this giant baz nitch before the other one knows i am here. i don't have enough HAM left to spam my area attacks...where can i move that is out of the 'sight' of the second baz nitch but not so close to those gaping spider hunters that they are going to aggro on me too'. it is just a much more thoughtfull process to me than say my 3/2/2/3 TKA. my thought process there is 'how many missions can i plow through before my buffs run out?' and i will openly admit that there are days when that is WAY more fun for me. but not always
so ALL of that rambling to say that i have to disagree with the statement that a Carbineer is more of a burden than a help in a group. a good Carbineer knows that the roll of crowd control falls squarly on his or her shoulders, and if that player knows and understands the class like some of the people in this forum, they can and will become an invaluable part of any group.
NeoEcks wrote:
we do not have the luxury of spamming specials (even specials from other classes i.e.Last Ditch and/or LowBlow from the Dirty Fighting line of Smuggler)with a SUPER low HAM weapon like a Scout Blaster the way pistoleers do. if you chuckle at the though of a scout blaster doing any damage, dual a Pistoleer who has taken the dirty fighting line in Smuggler and the pistol line in Bounty Hunter. watch what an Eyeshot / Fireshot / Low Blow / Panic Shot / Last Ditch combo will do to you. yes there is about a 2 second delay between Panic Shot and Last Ditch, but that is negligible considering the fact that you are now blind, on fire, knocked down, and delayed for ten seconds..
Eaca wrote:
NeoEcks wrote:
we do not have the luxury of spamming specials (even specials from other classes i.e.Last Ditch and/or LowBlow from the Dirty Fighting line of Smuggler)with a SUPER low HAM weapon like a Scout Blaster the way pistoleers do. if you chuckle at the though of a scout blaster doing any damage, dual a Pistoleer who has taken the dirty fighting line in Smuggler and the pistol line in Bounty Hunter. watch what an Eyeshot / Fireshot / Low Blow / Panic Shot / Last Ditch combo will do to you. yes there is about a 2 second delay between Panic Shot and Last Ditch, but that is negligible considering the fact that you are now blind, on fire, knocked down, and delayed for ten seconds..
I'll agree with everything you said but this... Never been a carbineer so I don't know for sure... BUT... You're telling me with 3000 strength and quickness and 1500+ focus you STILL have HAM costs? I find this rather hard to believe unless your HAM costs work different from every other class. With 1500 focus I can spam HS3 (the riflemans highest HAM cost shot) and only use 5 mind per shot while using my T21 with 106 mind cost. Without buffs this shot can do in excess of 200 damage to my mind. If your HAM costs are truely worse than this then, I mean damn, the devs really do hate you.
BkL wrote:
Well i would like to add a opinon from a carbineer my self about ham costs.I am Master Doc Master Carbineer my stats are migrated health 400 str 400 con 400 quick 400 action 400 stam 400 mind 1000 focus 900 willpower 1100.Now even with my buffs hitting around 2k or better ya i do drain my mind rather quicklly spamming special.Now i am also wearing armor and depending on whats draining the fastest for ham in pvp i will either pop some gold or pixie.And theres not much room for food or drink usage when u need to take defense food or drink we have no defense so i relly on food and drink for that.But overall ya carbineer ham is very high and no u cant spam specials all day like i said i still drain my mind very fast.And i have decent sliced armor for ham and a entertainer is not allways around for mind buffs
Wellas a master rifleman I'd consider myself an expert on managing mind costs Not sure why you have 900 focus 1100 willpower to be honest... Willpower only helps you regen faster, doesn't affect HAM costs. I'd recommend going to 1100 focus 900 willpower. As far as not being able to use food or drink due to buff mind due to defensive food and drink buffs, well I'm not sure what you're using, but if you get some BE Vasarian Brandy with a duration of over 45 minutes, you can be constantly under the effect of 2 of these and never exceed 50% of your stomach capacity. Just set up a macro that takes one every 22.5 minutes. For the first 22 minutes you'll only be under the influence of one of the brandy's, but after that the second one will kick in (after the first is completely digested, leaving you still with 50% stomach capacity) so you will be able to have +800 to all mind stats for as long as you keep your macro running (or until it runs out of brandy to drink...). If you're wearing tripple stun layered effectiveness sliced armor and using a stocked gun... well then yeah, you're gonna be hurting bad on mind costs...
MrBigpants wrote:
A supported class?
Ok, I do not use buffs, just the occasional stem to replace lost action quickly. So, I (novice carbineer) and my friend Dude(novice rifleman) are out on Tatooine fightingDewbacks to kidnap their babies. We decide to murder the parents. I had to save his butt on no less than 2/3 of the kills. I would hot with and action shot then spam legshot till they died(no less than 2, no more than 4). And, we both had our own hateful dewbacks trying to stomp us.
Given, both of us were novice and newbs. The only time I was incaped was when I was stupid and not watching my action pool. He was incaped more.
So, the moral of the story is Carbs support rifle when the dude pulling the trigger misses.
and when the rifleman spams himself to death... my wookiee MCH/MRifleman buddy STILL mind caps himself all the time (and he's no noob, believe me) and over our months of play since release, I've covered his arse countless times...
It's called special for a reason..
Drachan wrote:
Imho no one should be able to spam specials, no matter if buffed or not.
It's called special for a reason..
BOOOOO 
Have you tried to level a 4th tier elite profession? Goodness not only is the standard attack completely useless, but finding creatures you can kill in minutes instead of hours without killing YOU first nets you ONE XP PER KILL.
While I agree with your concept, the reality of the situation is without Specials I might as well go back to being Architect where I can set a houseon top of a creature. 