Carbineer Archive
Thread: Request for Comments from Devs and Correspondents regarding DoT changes
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Sotaudi
Fri Jan 30, 2004 2:07 pm
#1
I am posting this on most of the Elite profession boards because I would like to get a discussion going on an inequity with the upcoming changes to the DoT system. I would like to respectfully ask the correspondents of each board to get comments from the Devs on this.
Disclaimer: Before I begin, let me emphatically state that I am NOT calling for any further nerfing of any profession. I do not contend that any profession, no matter how little the change affects them, should be nerfed to down to balance the inequity. My contention is that the inequity should be softened on those profession builds that are unequally affected.
To begin, the proposed changes will allow a player to put only one DoT/Bleed per type (Health, Action, Mind, Flame). A single player will no longer be able to stack bleeds on the same pool (or stack a flame Dot). The problem is that there is an inequity in this plan in that it will not affect some combat professions at all and greatly hurt certain builds.
For instance, Master Marksmen can bleed 3 pools both before and after. Commandos and BHs will get those three bleeds plus a Flame DoT. They both lose the ability to double up on any one type, but they will still be able to put four simultaneous DoTs even after the change. Builds with two Elite professions that target different pools (e.g., Pistoleer/Pikeman, Rifleman/Fencer, etc.) have 4 bleeds now, but after the change will still be able to have 2 simultaneous level 2 DoTs. Single Elite professions (i.e., only a Pistoleer, only a Pikeman, etc.) can do 2 bleeds now, but will only be able to have 1 after the change. With the appropriate boxes from Marskman, both of the latter can run 3 simultaneous bleeds.
However, if a player chooses wisely so as to be able to target the same pool (Rifleman/Swordsman, Pistoleer/Fencer, or Carbineer/Pikeman), you get 4 bleeds, but since all four of those bleeds attack the same pool, after the change you will be able to be use only 1 of them. That means that, with one of these builds, you lose 3 out of 4 (75%) of your bleeds. The most any other profession build loses is 50% (1 out of 2 or 2 out of 4).
Now, it is understandable that Development wants to limit the ability to put as many as 4 bleeds on a single pool. But the solution is not to penalize people who have chosen wisely so as to maximize their ability to take down a target by choosing professions that target the same pool.
The reason you can stack 4 bleeds now is that the restrictions on bleeds are based on the special. That is, I can apply only one bleed per special (i.e, only one Mindshot2 sticks, but Mindshot1 will stack with Mindshot2, the same is true of MindHit2 and MindHit1, so I can currently stack all four). But the change will make it so that the restriction is being placed on a per person per pool basis. As shown above, this is the wrong approach because it penalizes some natural profession builds more than others. That is, Swordsman/Riflman, Pikeman/Carbineer, or Fencer/Pistoleer are natural, logical choices, not some bastardized ubber profession dabble. In fact, the change will only encourage profession dabbling.
The appropriate change would be to make the restriction on a per person per profession (including prerequisites) basis. Thus, you could not put two bleeds on the same pool unless they came from two different professions and the second profession did not come from a prerequisite profession (e.g., Mindshot1 comes from Marksman and Mindshot2 comes from Rifleman, but you cannot be a Rifleman with out Rifles IV from Marksman, so you can use only one of them). This would allow people who have chosen wisely to be on par with the majority of professions, losing no more than 50% of their ability to place bleeds.
Disclaimer: Before I begin, let me emphatically state that I am NOT calling for any further nerfing of any profession. I do not contend that any profession, no matter how little the change affects them, should be nerfed to down to balance the inequity. My contention is that the inequity should be softened on those profession builds that are unequally affected.
To begin, the proposed changes will allow a player to put only one DoT/Bleed per type (Health, Action, Mind, Flame). A single player will no longer be able to stack bleeds on the same pool (or stack a flame Dot). The problem is that there is an inequity in this plan in that it will not affect some combat professions at all and greatly hurt certain builds.
For instance, Master Marksmen can bleed 3 pools both before and after. Commandos and BHs will get those three bleeds plus a Flame DoT. They both lose the ability to double up on any one type, but they will still be able to put four simultaneous DoTs even after the change. Builds with two Elite professions that target different pools (e.g., Pistoleer/Pikeman, Rifleman/Fencer, etc.) have 4 bleeds now, but after the change will still be able to have 2 simultaneous level 2 DoTs. Single Elite professions (i.e., only a Pistoleer, only a Pikeman, etc.) can do 2 bleeds now, but will only be able to have 1 after the change. With the appropriate boxes from Marskman, both of the latter can run 3 simultaneous bleeds.
However, if a player chooses wisely so as to be able to target the same pool (Rifleman/Swordsman, Pistoleer/Fencer, or Carbineer/Pikeman), you get 4 bleeds, but since all four of those bleeds attack the same pool, after the change you will be able to be use only 1 of them. That means that, with one of these builds, you lose 3 out of 4 (75%) of your bleeds. The most any other profession build loses is 50% (1 out of 2 or 2 out of 4).
Now, it is understandable that Development wants to limit the ability to put as many as 4 bleeds on a single pool. But the solution is not to penalize people who have chosen wisely so as to maximize their ability to take down a target by choosing professions that target the same pool.
The reason you can stack 4 bleeds now is that the restrictions on bleeds are based on the special. That is, I can apply only one bleed per special (i.e, only one Mindshot2 sticks, but Mindshot1 will stack with Mindshot2, the same is true of MindHit2 and MindHit1, so I can currently stack all four). But the change will make it so that the restriction is being placed on a per person per pool basis. As shown above, this is the wrong approach because it penalizes some natural profession builds more than others. That is, Swordsman/Riflman, Pikeman/Carbineer, or Fencer/Pistoleer are natural, logical choices, not some bastardized ubber profession dabble. In fact, the change will only encourage profession dabbling.
The appropriate change would be to make the restriction on a per person per profession (including prerequisites) basis. Thus, you could not put two bleeds on the same pool unless they came from two different professions and the second profession did not come from a prerequisite profession (e.g., Mindshot1 comes from Marksman and Mindshot2 comes from Rifleman, but you cannot be a Rifleman with out Rifles IV from Marksman, so you can use only one of them). This would allow people who have chosen wisely to be on par with the majority of professions, losing no more than 50% of their ability to place bleeds.
Now, it could be argued that having the ability to place two level 2 bleeds on the same pool may still be too powerful. If that is the case, then the further restriction could be added to allow only one of those two bleeds to be a level 2 bleed. Thus, as a Rifleman Swordsman, I could do Mindshot2 + MindHit1, Mindhit2 + Mindshot1, or Mindshot1 + MindHit1, but not Mindshot2 + MindHit2. If, through dabbling, one could end up with three bleeds on the same pool, then a further restriction could be added to allow a maximum of two bleeds per pool.
Clearly, it is unfair to penalize a natural profession build (one that was not derived from some ubber-chasing dabble) by taking away 3 out of 4 of their bleeds, leaving them with only one usable bleed while other professions can have 4 simultaneous bleeds running. A change such as proposed above would balance this inequity
Clearly, it is unfair to penalize a natural profession build (one that was not derived from some ubber-chasing dabble) by taking away 3 out of 4 of their bleeds, leaving them with only one usable bleed while other professions can have 4 simultaneous bleeds running. A change such as proposed above would balance this inequity
Sotaudi
Fri Jan 30, 2004 2:08 pm
#2
I am posting this on most of the Elite profession boards because I would like to get a discussion going on an inequity with the upcoming changes to the DoT system. I would like to respectfully ask the correspondents of each board to get comments from the Devs on this.
Disclaimer: Before I begin, let me emphatically state that I am NOT calling for any further nerfing of any profession. I do not contend that any profession, no matter how little the change affects them, should be nerfed to down to balance the inequity. My contention is that the inequity should be softened on those profession builds that are unequally affected.
To begin, the proposed changes will allow a player to put only one DoT/Bleed per type (Health, Action, Mind, Flame). A single player will no longer be able to stack bleeds on the same pool (or stack a flame Dot). The problem is that there is an inequity in this plan in that it will not affect some combat professions at all and greatly hurt certain builds.
For instance, Master Marksmen can bleed 3 pools both before and after. Commandos and BHs will get those three bleeds plus a Flame DoT. They both lose the ability to double up on any one type, but they will still be able to put four simultaneous DoTs even after the change. Builds with two Elite professions that target different pools (e.g., Pistoleer/Pikeman, Rifleman/Fencer, etc.) have 4 bleeds now, but after the change will still be able to have 2 simultaneous level 2 DoTs. Single Elite professions (i.e., only a Pistoleer, only a Pikeman, etc.) can do 2 bleeds now, but will only be able to have 1 after the change. With the appropriate boxes from Marskman, both of the latter can run 3 simultaneous bleeds.
However, if a player chooses wisely so as to be able to target the same pool (Rifleman/Swordsman, Pistoleer/Fencer, or Carbineer/Pikeman), you get 4 bleeds, but since all four of those bleeds attack the same pool, after the change you will be able to be use only 1 of them. That means that, with one of these builds, you lose 3 out of 4 (75%) of your bleeds. The most any other profession build loses is 50% (1 out of 2 or 2 out of 4).
Now, it is understandable that Development wants to limit the ability to put as many as 4 bleeds on a single pool. But the solution is not to penalize people who have chosen wisely so as to maximize their ability to take down a target by choosing professions that target the same pool.
The reason you can stack 4 bleeds now is that the restrictions on bleeds are based on the special. That is, I can apply only one bleed per special (i.e, only one Mindshot2 sticks, but Mindshot1 will stack with Mindshot2, the same is true of MindHit2 and MindHit1, so I can currently stack all four). But the change will make it so that the restriction is being placed on a per person per pool basis. As shown above, this is the wrong approach because it penalizes some natural profession builds more than others. That is, Swordsman/Riflman, Pikeman/Carbineer, or Fencer/Pistoleer are natural, logical choices, not some bastardized ubber profession dabble. In fact, the change will only encourage profession dabbling.
The appropriate change would be to make the restriction on a per person per profession (including prerequisites) basis. Thus, you could not put two bleeds on the same pool unless they came from two different professions and the second profession did not come from a prerequisite profession (e.g., Mindshot1 comes from Marksman and Mindshot2 comes from Rifleman, but you cannot be a Rifleman with out Rifles IV from Marksman, so you can use only one of them). This would allow people who have chosen wisely to be on par with the majority of professions, losing no more than 50% of their ability to place bleeds.
Disclaimer: Before I begin, let me emphatically state that I am NOT calling for any further nerfing of any profession. I do not contend that any profession, no matter how little the change affects them, should be nerfed to down to balance the inequity. My contention is that the inequity should be softened on those profession builds that are unequally affected.
To begin, the proposed changes will allow a player to put only one DoT/Bleed per type (Health, Action, Mind, Flame). A single player will no longer be able to stack bleeds on the same pool (or stack a flame Dot). The problem is that there is an inequity in this plan in that it will not affect some combat professions at all and greatly hurt certain builds.
For instance, Master Marksmen can bleed 3 pools both before and after. Commandos and BHs will get those three bleeds plus a Flame DoT. They both lose the ability to double up on any one type, but they will still be able to put four simultaneous DoTs even after the change. Builds with two Elite professions that target different pools (e.g., Pistoleer/Pikeman, Rifleman/Fencer, etc.) have 4 bleeds now, but after the change will still be able to have 2 simultaneous level 2 DoTs. Single Elite professions (i.e., only a Pistoleer, only a Pikeman, etc.) can do 2 bleeds now, but will only be able to have 1 after the change. With the appropriate boxes from Marskman, both of the latter can run 3 simultaneous bleeds.
However, if a player chooses wisely so as to be able to target the same pool (Rifleman/Swordsman, Pistoleer/Fencer, or Carbineer/Pikeman), you get 4 bleeds, but since all four of those bleeds attack the same pool, after the change you will be able to be use only 1 of them. That means that, with one of these builds, you lose 3 out of 4 (75%) of your bleeds. The most any other profession build loses is 50% (1 out of 2 or 2 out of 4).
Now, it is understandable that Development wants to limit the ability to put as many as 4 bleeds on a single pool. But the solution is not to penalize people who have chosen wisely so as to maximize their ability to take down a target by choosing professions that target the same pool.
The reason you can stack 4 bleeds now is that the restrictions on bleeds are based on the special. That is, I can apply only one bleed per special (i.e, only one Mindshot2 sticks, but Mindshot1 will stack with Mindshot2, the same is true of MindHit2 and MindHit1, so I can currently stack all four). But the change will make it so that the restriction is being placed on a per person per pool basis. As shown above, this is the wrong approach because it penalizes some natural profession builds more than others. That is, Swordsman/Riflman, Pikeman/Carbineer, or Fencer/Pistoleer are natural, logical choices, not some bastardized ubber profession dabble. In fact, the change will only encourage profession dabbling.
The appropriate change would be to make the restriction on a per person per profession (including prerequisites) basis. Thus, you could not put two bleeds on the same pool unless they came from two different professions and the second profession did not come from a prerequisite profession (e.g., Mindshot1 comes from Marksman and Mindshot2 comes from Rifleman, but you cannot be a Rifleman with out Rifles IV from Marksman, so you can use only one of them). This would allow people who have chosen wisely to be on par with the majority of professions, losing no more than 50% of their ability to place bleeds.
Now, it could be argued that having the ability to place two level 2 bleeds on the same pool may still be too powerful. If that is the case, then the further restriction could be added to allow only one of those two bleeds to be a level 2 bleed. Thus, as a Rifleman Swordsman, I could do Mindshot2 + MindHit1, Mindhit2 + Mindshot1, or Mindshot1 + MindHit1, but not Mindshot2 + MindHit2. If, through dabbling, one could end up with three bleeds on the same pool, then a further restriction could be added to allow a maximum of two bleeds per pool.
Clearly, it is unfair to penalize a natural profession build (one that was not derived from some ubber-chasing dabble) by taking away 3 out of 4 of their bleeds, leaving them with only one usable bleed while other professions can have 4 simultaneous bleeds running. A change such as proposed above would balance this inequity
Clearly, it is unfair to penalize a natural profession build (one that was not derived from some ubber-chasing dabble) by taking away 3 out of 4 of their bleeds, leaving them with only one usable bleed while other professions can have 4 simultaneous bleeds running. A change such as proposed above would balance this inequity
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