Carbineer Archive
Thread: Holocron's post Open discussion on balancing and Carbineers
The thread I am referencing is this:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Development&message.id=366138
The post from Holo that leads the discussion states (in part):
"1. A red con is supposed to be extremely difficult to kill; you should die 95% of the time when you tackle it."
"2. Devs have to adjust player capabilities to the level of the game data, not the other way around."
"3. A lot of players (certain professions, but also "multiclassers" who have figured out good templates) are killing reds with ease and think this is how it is supposed to be."
Now this doesn't go into detail under those bullet points, but I find this very important to dicsuss these ideas because as Carbineers, the bulk of our special moves act as 'crowd control' and 'force multipliers.' By this, I mean our special moves tend to have effects other than pure damage - state changes, posture-down, knock-down in particular. By using these moves in the right manner we're able to control the pace of a battle, influence the positioning and movement of mobs, and hinder or even cripple certain mobs. This makes it possible (not always easy, but certainly possible) for a carbineer, with the right tactics, to solo most melee creatures - even social ones - in a very effective manner regardless of how high they /consider.
The problem I see with this is that the only way #1 can be made true is if the 'force multipliers' in the game are nerfed as per #2, so that people who have setups as in #3 aren't as powerful.
A 'force multiplier' to me, is something that isn't necessarily very powerful itself, but when combined with another attack or tactic makes that attack or tactic more effective. For example, the ability to posture-down something with AS1 makes the kiting tactic a great deal more effective - it multiplies its power. Many traps, like adhesive mesh or phen darts in particular, are also good examples of multipliers. And heals and buffs, of course, are obvious force multipliers.
But to the point of this forum: the carbineer specials that have extra effects are force multipliers. In the case of broken ones, they will be force multipliers when they're fixed. Perhaps this is part of the reason why many carbine specials have a much higher HAM cost compared to rifles or pistols, as balance? That would be acceptable to me, theoretically speaking. If everything were working, the carbine specials would be very, very powerful for crowd control and tactical application as force multipliers. Even without everything working, and in fact only using AS1 and Warning Shot, I've found some excellent solo and small team tactics to take out red-conning mobs with my carbine. In short - while my carbine specials alone may or may not be "too powerful" according to Holo's post on red cons... when combined with my medical skills and scout skills, that "multiclass" which allows me to take on red-con melee creatures successfully is too powerful, and I should be dying 95% of the time.
However, with the HAM cost being used as a balance in the carbine specials, there's still a "balance problem" when you have a confluence of force multipliers. For example, I could easily keep up a barrage of special attacks if I just use Stim B's when my action gets under 40%. Or I could drink a tatooine sunburn. Either of those additional tactics change the limit on my ability to use my specials from a fast drain to my health and action pools, to a much slower drain on my mind pool. By combining the right specials with the right buffs or heals at the right times, I am much more powerful than a paper analysis would indicate given my skill levels.
I think this is a good thing. It rewards people for playing intelligently and making use of many skills in a synergistic fashion. What I'm concerned about is that instead of rewarding intelligent tactical play, these statements from Holo indicate that the devs are fixing to nerf the ability to employ tactics so that players can't fight red-con creatures without large groups centered around the traditional EQ-style 'tank/healer' model.
Thoughts/comments? Carbineers are unique among the elite ranged weapon professions in that we're ideally set up for ranged crowd control and force multiplication.
I think 90% of the "soloing reds" problem is caused by noobs.
When I first went to one of the advanced planets everything on it conned red to me. I assumed that it would be impossible to ever leave the outpost without agroup of 20 people. Now when I go, the worst thing that I usually see is yellow andvery rarely red. Some noob goes to endor and sees me killing boar wolves (which conwhite to me) might think that I'm way overpowered.
There's also the fact that since red is the most difficult aomething can con there is a huge varience in the difficulty of reds. Putrid Borgles con red to me and I can kill them fairly easily, but other things that are red I can hardly scratch before I'm dead.
I certainly agree the /con system is borked up, in exactly the way thatyou mention - many mobs are conning red that just shouldn't, and all mobs over a certain level end up as 'red cons' even though one might be CL 30 and the other is CL 100.
In addition to there being too much variance in 'red con' - and what's more, there's a huge difference in difficultybetween mobs based on factors besides their level. A 'white con' that has a ranged attack (NPCs with blasters)or runs at burstrun speed (tusk cat) is extremely dangerous compared to their 'color' - while a slow-running melee red con (leviasquall) is effectively harmless to anyone with terrain negotiation.
Kaelle_DB wrote:
I think 90% of the "soloing reds" problem is caused by noobs.
When I first went to one of the advanced planets everything on it conned red to me. I assumed that it would be impossible to ever leave the outpost without agroup of 20 people. Now when I go, the worst thing that I usually see is yellow andvery rarely red. Some noob goes to endor and sees me killing boar wolves (which conwhite to me) might think that I'm way overpowered.
There's also the fact that since red is the most difficult aomething can con there is a huge varience in the difficulty of reds. Putrid Borgles con red to me and I can kill them fairly easily, but other things that are red I can hardly scratch before I'm dead.
Holo is not basing his statement on "in game remarks" ... or even "out of game" remarks .. he has actually reports that say how many of what level mobs were killed and by what level player.
He has posted some of his numbers before ... which were very interesting to see the type of data they track.
So ... when I go hunting and take down a pack of Yellows that gets Logged as a "difference" in level kill.
Hero out
Instead of the "con" system it should probley display the new CL (challenge leverl) i guess its for creatures atm but easily could be applied to all npc's
ilcoz wavingstrider, ketamoor
The statements by Holocron scare me also. The way I have always seen it work in various MMORPGs is that a 'red con' - or equivalent -is difficult in the sense that if you stood there, and the mob stood there, and just traded blows, the mob will kill you 95% of the time. However, when you add tactics to the mix, i.e. judicious use of specials, kiting, combos, etc., then it becomes possible to tackle certain reds. What scares me is that Holocron seems to be implying that no red con should be soloable EVER. I don't know about you guys, but if that kind of thinking is implemented in this game, its gonna suck the fun right out of it for me. Kiting durnis because everything else is certain death doesn't sound appealing!
I want to emphasize that I don't think that ALL reds should be soloable; many should, and do, require groups to tackle. I just don't feel its such a bad thing for some of them to be soloable, provided you effectively use tactics to your advantage. If I recall correctly, that was one of the things the developers were trumpeting about their combat system when the game was being made - that it wasn't just hitting aoutoattack and making a sandwich!