Carbineer Archive
Thread: carbs and krayt's : a solution to reatreat
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J0hnnyBlaze
Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:11 pm
#1
I have experienced the same problem. What I usually do is try not to kite too far away from them, as pulling them too far away from their point of spawn seems to be what toggles their retreat. I'm not sure how far it actually is that you run inorder to toggle the retreat but so long as you kite on a horizontal, as opposed to vertical arc, you shouldn't have much problem with them retreating providing you reverse direction as necessary. Additionally I'm not sure about your server but on my server(Flurry) its riddiculous how abysmal the drop chances are for giant and ancient krayts. For a while the adolescents seemed to be the only krayts dropping ANYTHING, but now they have fallen off the end of the chart as well.
BadgerSmaker
Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:38 pm
#2
When you find a krayt you want to kill, target it and do /way.
This gives you a reference for its spawn location.
Try and keep it within 120m of that wp, I solo'd an ancient a few hours ago and it didnt retreat on me at all as I kept it within 120m and killed in in seven minutes.
Time may also be a factor in the retreat, but I haven't narrowed that down yet.
If it does retreat, you can see how far it has to go to the wp to get reset, of you haven't pulled it too far it wont be able to regen too much so when you see a ? on its head (provided you are within aggro range) it is time to open up again.
kingbutt
Tue Jun 28, 2005 12:24 am
#3
im a mbh m carb and pistols x4x4 and i have no problem soloing krayts except one..................................................................... those f'in dragon's always retreat ive them down to about 34k (grand's and ancients) or so hp and then i root and they turn around evertime , put their tails between there legs and run away, what am i doing wrong is there any slution to my problem? plz help me
Gray03
Tue Jun 28, 2005 5:16 am
#4
I have also had extensive experience with this bug (and it is a bug) - the suggestion Badger has will greatly reduce the number of times it occurs. If you basically kite in arcs, close to the spawn point rather than away from it you will do much better.
However, it can still happen - and I've never been able to pin down why. I've had it happen When I was 50m from the spawn point occasionally and I've had it NOT happen at 500m - so go figure.
Quandry
Tue Jun 28, 2005 1:58 pm
#5
I have had them retreat when in almost the same spot as they spawned....And I have kited some krytes extreamly far from the spawn and not had them run. For fun with poison i can get a ns to chase me across dath all the way to the vilage and not retreat as long as the dots keep ticking. I think its a hate issue not a distance. We have all had them retreat close to their spawn and led them to what would be way to far if there was a distance tie in.
Ok here is my theory and so far it has not failed with me. I have led them prety far away from their spawn points and not had the retreat so i think thats not a factor. It is all about the hate imo. Diffrent damages get diffrent hate. Also as we know there are taunts and healing that also get us hate. It seems to me that the Group Class mobs (Krytes are not just a lvl 95 they are a group level 95 not quite the same) Loose hate rather quickly. This is probably because in a group if the doc acidently pulls the agro it allows the rest of the group to pull it back to them. But sence we are not hunting in a group... We do not keep the hate up to hold the agro. From my perception blaster damage causes verry little actual hate for the amount of damage done when compaired to say healing or dots like fire and poison. I believe this has to do with armor and resistance etc (wich poisons and fires or bleeding goes right thrue for the most part). And sence we are kiteing and not taking much damage if any...We dont heal therefore not get the hate for that. Just the blaster hate.
Now i am a master cm and carbineer. I have killed my share of krytes sence the cu and have studied it fairly well id like to think. I can have em 300m away from the spawn or 30m away from the spawn. They will retreat if you dont get enough hate going. Now upon first agro there is an initial hate level awarded or a minimum agro timer that starts. Unless it kills you it will fight for at least so long as long as you cause some damage....Seems to be about a minut and a half or so for the lvl 84 krytes but its realy hard to say for sure. So other than that first hate or the timer what ever it may be, thats how i precieve it to be anyhow. You got that much time to build up enough of a hate level to keep the agro when that runs out. Unless your weapon has a Lot of damage and is realy fast (as im just carbineer my speed is only about 94 if you want a genral base) it wont make enough hate alone. What proves this to me is wile i was working on my tactics and for fun a couple guildies would come along for extra fire power. Most of the time they were not to much for combat...half crafter etc.
We would go for an ancient for example. Normaly ill get one to agro me (dont agro them if they agro you they dont bring friends) and lead him away from the pack if there is one. Often they dont attack as they are just in "?" mode not "!" full blown agro. Once i see the ? i start backing off...usualy hits at about 35m on the 90's and as much as 45-50 on the ancients and 25-35 on the 82's and 79's. Just because the 82 is closer dosent mean he will agro you so watch it. Then when i know hes far enough away ill charge in (usualy get hit once or twice wich makes the ancients a bit tricky as 3 hits im dead...Im not so much a ring of fire as a just hold em still and pound on em. I drop a paralise then a electrolyte for snare and the thyroid one i think...attack speed snare...i have about 3 seconds on my paralise left (sence i did not cause damage it does not break. I then fire my kd wile i make my break for out of mele range. Wile hes down ill slip in a legshot then my stoping shot from pistoleer 0404. Wile hes siting tight and once my group if there is one sees the kd shot they open fire on him and i lob both my poisons on him. The poisons are the key to the agro. Now once hes good and slowed by cm skills i got 2 minuts where he is not so quick and with the carbineer snare i can kite him walking. If things slip up i got the kd and pistoleer root and disarming shot just incase.
Now heres where i explane why i think its all hate. With sevral in game groups similar and for the sake of this example lets assume im in a group of 3. Myself and another pistoleer and a third with just better than half a combat profession. More along for the ride and extra status effects. Solo even if i manage to keep an ancient under controle causing enough damage to actualy kill one myself i need to apply my cm slows bairly 3 times. The problem with this is i dont cause damage wile im just applying status effects and it means i get hit for about 1200 damage a shot if i get hit. Say i get controle of the kryte and my group and i are fireing away on it...Got her over half dead...Even 90% sometimes. and i go in for a reapplication (has to be at 9m) and die. Once i die he retreats and super heals...Wile my group members fire like mad trying to keep up with him and finish him off. The kryte acts like they are not even there...The entire battle they would not even be attacked if they stayed out of the way of their cone attacks. They never did anything to make the kryte hate them enough to even want to kill. Same group in another slightly diffrent situation. Battle is going well have the lizard almost down. My poisons ware off and i dont notice....or i just think we almost got him. I dont re-apply...Within 45 seconds he will inevitably retreat and run off to heal even with all 3 of us pounding away. Now wile hes running the first thing i do is toss a poison if im close enough. If it sticks withough fail the mob kryte or not will come back full agro to me no mater if they warp 150m away just to kill me. Every time...if the dot sticks when it ticks they re-agro you with the same timmer as the initial agro i talked about eirlyer.
So then trying to get a bunch of tissues for some guildies a couple combat chars come out with me. 2 strong chars one master rifle master bh. And a master tk fencer and pikes i believe. Fealing confident about my now fairly polished tactic...I tell them to just pound away for all out damage. (A tip for anyone with mele friends...If they stay behind his head and cone of attack they dont have to worry about taking damage if they try not to draw agro). We decided to go for some ancients because they were there. The lesser ones died before i had to reapply my cm slows. After both of them and i pounded it almost to death and the cm slows wore off...along with my poisons. I went in to re snare him and died. He instantly lost hate for the group and retreated...even with strong players hitting like mad. He quickly outran the mele guy and then out of range of the rifleman...Now angry we decided he must die. Second time we decided to just drop the second snares and keep pounding..Again when my poisons ran out he /retreated. Managed to catch him with a poison wile he was running away and finished him off when he charged back.
After killing a few more of the wild ones and fealing prety confident in the dot for hate concept...We changed group tactics. With the other 2 members going for not just status effects but if they had anything that would cause bleeding or any damage over time to try to keep those effects in place as much as possable. Now being stuborn and enjoying the results again i went in for the second cm snare's....died. But rather than retreat he switched agro to the rifleman bh ....not expecting it heh...Hadent ben hit the entire night...He died.
He ignored the mele guy though i assume because he had to work at staying in range and dident have to many dot attacks never realy made any hate for himself. For the record i dont care if i die...If i dont have a chance of dieing i get bored...thats also more why i dont do the ring of fire tactic as burst running takes the fun out of it....not even on my toolbar.
Iv messed with this concept with sevral other groups in similar situations...If you dont have dots and a good high real time damage per second you had better have enough people with you to kill it before the initial hate wares off. Iv seen groups of 8 guys and once the key healer or dot guy died they retreat. Its not just the damage you do its the type and dots piss them off a lot. I think more than healing as iv also killed some krytes with a jedi healer...Once i get my cm dots on and start focusing on my carbs for a bit...I have never had the agro pulled off me except for jedi dominate mind. The jedi healer healing me did not even cancle my hate with the poisons ticking. Also being a cm i heal myself a few times increasing my own hate a good amount that way.
I have also applied my hate concept to some NS. Had one in particular follow me almost all the way to the village. I wasent attacking him just letting him burn. He would retreat each time it ran out but id just reignite him and he kept comming. The distance from the spawn point might be a variable but hate is a much stronger one.
This is just my observations and personal testing. I know i cant spell to well so be it...i dont get payed for my grammer i get payed for my knowlage in other areas. If someone can add more insite to this id be interested. So far its held up every way i could test it.
Retreat is based on either:
A minimum amount of hate that must be maintaned after a set initial agro timmer expires by at least one attacking player.
or
A slowly climbing hate number that must be maintaned by at least one attacking member. Once this hate number passes the inital hate+combat generated hate the mob will /retreat.
There is either a set agro time from first attack before retreat is possable or an initial hate genrated on the initial agro...Either way same result.
Ok here is my theory and so far it has not failed with me. I have led them prety far away from their spawn points and not had the retreat so i think thats not a factor. It is all about the hate imo. Diffrent damages get diffrent hate. Also as we know there are taunts and healing that also get us hate. It seems to me that the Group Class mobs (Krytes are not just a lvl 95 they are a group level 95 not quite the same) Loose hate rather quickly. This is probably because in a group if the doc acidently pulls the agro it allows the rest of the group to pull it back to them. But sence we are not hunting in a group... We do not keep the hate up to hold the agro. From my perception blaster damage causes verry little actual hate for the amount of damage done when compaired to say healing or dots like fire and poison. I believe this has to do with armor and resistance etc (wich poisons and fires or bleeding goes right thrue for the most part). And sence we are kiteing and not taking much damage if any...We dont heal therefore not get the hate for that. Just the blaster hate.
Now i am a master cm and carbineer. I have killed my share of krytes sence the cu and have studied it fairly well id like to think. I can have em 300m away from the spawn or 30m away from the spawn. They will retreat if you dont get enough hate going. Now upon first agro there is an initial hate level awarded or a minimum agro timer that starts. Unless it kills you it will fight for at least so long as long as you cause some damage....Seems to be about a minut and a half or so for the lvl 84 krytes but its realy hard to say for sure. So other than that first hate or the timer what ever it may be, thats how i precieve it to be anyhow. You got that much time to build up enough of a hate level to keep the agro when that runs out. Unless your weapon has a Lot of damage and is realy fast (as im just carbineer my speed is only about 94 if you want a genral base) it wont make enough hate alone. What proves this to me is wile i was working on my tactics and for fun a couple guildies would come along for extra fire power. Most of the time they were not to much for combat...half crafter etc.
We would go for an ancient for example. Normaly ill get one to agro me (dont agro them if they agro you they dont bring friends) and lead him away from the pack if there is one. Often they dont attack as they are just in "?" mode not "!" full blown agro. Once i see the ? i start backing off...usualy hits at about 35m on the 90's and as much as 45-50 on the ancients and 25-35 on the 82's and 79's. Just because the 82 is closer dosent mean he will agro you so watch it. Then when i know hes far enough away ill charge in (usualy get hit once or twice wich makes the ancients a bit tricky as 3 hits im dead...Im not so much a ring of fire as a just hold em still and pound on em. I drop a paralise then a electrolyte for snare and the thyroid one i think...attack speed snare...i have about 3 seconds on my paralise left (sence i did not cause damage it does not break. I then fire my kd wile i make my break for out of mele range. Wile hes down ill slip in a legshot then my stoping shot from pistoleer 0404. Wile hes siting tight and once my group if there is one sees the kd shot they open fire on him and i lob both my poisons on him. The poisons are the key to the agro. Now once hes good and slowed by cm skills i got 2 minuts where he is not so quick and with the carbineer snare i can kite him walking. If things slip up i got the kd and pistoleer root and disarming shot just incase.
Now heres where i explane why i think its all hate. With sevral in game groups similar and for the sake of this example lets assume im in a group of 3. Myself and another pistoleer and a third with just better than half a combat profession. More along for the ride and extra status effects. Solo even if i manage to keep an ancient under controle causing enough damage to actualy kill one myself i need to apply my cm slows bairly 3 times. The problem with this is i dont cause damage wile im just applying status effects and it means i get hit for about 1200 damage a shot if i get hit. Say i get controle of the kryte and my group and i are fireing away on it...Got her over half dead...Even 90% sometimes. and i go in for a reapplication (has to be at 9m) and die. Once i die he retreats and super heals...Wile my group members fire like mad trying to keep up with him and finish him off. The kryte acts like they are not even there...The entire battle they would not even be attacked if they stayed out of the way of their cone attacks. They never did anything to make the kryte hate them enough to even want to kill. Same group in another slightly diffrent situation. Battle is going well have the lizard almost down. My poisons ware off and i dont notice....or i just think we almost got him. I dont re-apply...Within 45 seconds he will inevitably retreat and run off to heal even with all 3 of us pounding away. Now wile hes running the first thing i do is toss a poison if im close enough. If it sticks withough fail the mob kryte or not will come back full agro to me no mater if they warp 150m away just to kill me. Every time...if the dot sticks when it ticks they re-agro you with the same timmer as the initial agro i talked about eirlyer.
So then trying to get a bunch of tissues for some guildies a couple combat chars come out with me. 2 strong chars one master rifle master bh. And a master tk fencer and pikes i believe. Fealing confident about my now fairly polished tactic...I tell them to just pound away for all out damage. (A tip for anyone with mele friends...If they stay behind his head and cone of attack they dont have to worry about taking damage if they try not to draw agro). We decided to go for some ancients because they were there. The lesser ones died before i had to reapply my cm slows. After both of them and i pounded it almost to death and the cm slows wore off...along with my poisons. I went in to re snare him and died. He instantly lost hate for the group and retreated...even with strong players hitting like mad. He quickly outran the mele guy and then out of range of the rifleman...Now angry we decided he must die. Second time we decided to just drop the second snares and keep pounding..Again when my poisons ran out he /retreated. Managed to catch him with a poison wile he was running away and finished him off when he charged back.
After killing a few more of the wild ones and fealing prety confident in the dot for hate concept...We changed group tactics. With the other 2 members going for not just status effects but if they had anything that would cause bleeding or any damage over time to try to keep those effects in place as much as possable. Now being stuborn and enjoying the results again i went in for the second cm snare's....died. But rather than retreat he switched agro to the rifleman bh ....not expecting it heh...Hadent ben hit the entire night...He died.
He ignored the mele guy though i assume because he had to work at staying in range and dident have to many dot attacks never realy made any hate for himself. For the record i dont care if i die...If i dont have a chance of dieing i get bored...thats also more why i dont do the ring of fire tactic as burst running takes the fun out of it....not even on my toolbar.
Iv messed with this concept with sevral other groups in similar situations...If you dont have dots and a good high real time damage per second you had better have enough people with you to kill it before the initial hate wares off. Iv seen groups of 8 guys and once the key healer or dot guy died they retreat. Its not just the damage you do its the type and dots piss them off a lot. I think more than healing as iv also killed some krytes with a jedi healer...Once i get my cm dots on and start focusing on my carbs for a bit...I have never had the agro pulled off me except for jedi dominate mind. The jedi healer healing me did not even cancle my hate with the poisons ticking. Also being a cm i heal myself a few times increasing my own hate a good amount that way.
I have also applied my hate concept to some NS. Had one in particular follow me almost all the way to the village. I wasent attacking him just letting him burn. He would retreat each time it ran out but id just reignite him and he kept comming. The distance from the spawn point might be a variable but hate is a much stronger one.
This is just my observations and personal testing. I know i cant spell to well so be it...i dont get payed for my grammer i get payed for my knowlage in other areas. If someone can add more insite to this id be interested. So far its held up every way i could test it.
Retreat is based on either:
A minimum amount of hate that must be maintaned after a set initial agro timmer expires by at least one attacking player.
or
A slowly climbing hate number that must be maintaned by at least one attacking member. Once this hate number passes the inital hate+combat generated hate the mob will /retreat.
There is either a set agro time from first attack before retreat is possable or an initial hate genrated on the initial agro...Either way same result.
DanteTheMagnificent
Wed Jun 29, 2005 7:14 am
#6
That's some really good info, Lil'ith. Going to have to test on that some more.
It got me to thinking, what if the two (hate and distance) are intertwined.
The closer to the lair, the eaiser it is to keep the hate. And expanding out in rings (say, 25m, 50, 75m, 100m, etc - just arbitarily making up numbers to illustrate the point) the hate multiplier decreases until it plateaus off at a certain distance.
By that theory, it'll almost always be 100% possible to keep hate with just blaster fire close to the lair. As you get farther away, they like their homes are less threatened (read: AI), and so are more likely to retreat unless high hate generating skills are used.
Just an optional hypothesis to consider alongside your timer based ideas. Could be an aggregate using all factors, who knows. (Though I don't know why SOE would go to the trouble to make it -quite- so complex, but ya never know I guess).
Quandry
Thu Jun 30, 2005 2:03 pm
#7
I would not be surprised if distance is a factor. Another thing that could be a factor is who the kryte is targeting....If the mob is chasing you it could build hate more for you. This would help the "tank" keep the agro and also why its almost impossable for the player doing the most damage not to be the target....once they get the agro it just climbs higher and faster.
Its just i see and have ben in so many groups trying to get the badge they got now for the ancients for friends. And so often if the head dps guy/puller tank should die.....Even with 7 other players who may or may not be all combat still shooting at the kryte it goes into /retreat. As if the rest were not even a concern...rarely does it kill one member of a group and then attack another member of the group withought retreating first...unless another player in the group has dots ticking or other things i precieve to be more hatefull than just damage going. Now that healing hate is halfed we should be able to see a clear diffrence to the hate as its working and then perhaps make a better theory : )
Its just i see and have ben in so many groups trying to get the badge they got now for the ancients for friends. And so often if the head dps guy/puller tank should die.....Even with 7 other players who may or may not be all combat still shooting at the kryte it goes into /retreat. As if the rest were not even a concern...rarely does it kill one member of a group and then attack another member of the group withought retreating first...unless another player in the group has dots ticking or other things i precieve to be more hatefull than just damage going. Now that healing hate is halfed we should be able to see a clear diffrence to the hate as its working and then perhaps make a better theory : )
Domonique
Thu Jun 30, 2005 2:12 pm
#8
kingbutt wrote:
im a mbh m carb and pistols x4x4 and i have no problem soloing krayts except one..................................................................... those f'in dragon's always retreat ive them down to about 34k (grand's and ancients) or so hp and then i root and they turn around evertime , put their tails between there legs and run away, what am i doing wrong is there any slution to my problem? plz help me
run around in a circle, try to use nearby houses for best results, if you pull them out of range of their spawn point, they will retreat
Quandry
Thu Jun 30, 2005 2:14 pm
#9
Domonique wrote:
kingbutt wrote:
im a mbh m carb and pistols x4x4 and i have no problem soloing krayts except one..................................................................... those f'in dragon's always retreat ive them down to about 34k (grand's and ancients) or so hp and then i root and they turn around evertime , put their tails between there legs and run away, what am i doing wrong is there any slution to my problem? plz help me
run around in a circle, try to use nearby houses for best results, if you pull them out of range of their spawn point, they will retreat
If you use a house for cover as soon as the kryte cant see you it will stop walking and start running tward where it needs to be to see you...might not see it running with the lag but you will feal it : )
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