Carbineer Archive
Thread: State Defenses vs Range/Melee Defenses
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Areoch
Thu Oct 21, 2004 2:04 am
#1
Hello again. I post this here because its been said that carbineers alone lack defense. So in my research into the profession I am trying to see which works out better.
Does having higher melee/range defense workout better than having high state defenses?
Picking up fencer would give me 71 melee defense and 111 ranged. Picking up Pistoleer gives a spread of some very large numbers to the states.
What have your experiences been? Does getting hit less make up for the lack of defenses? Also I have read that counterattack caps at 125. This true? (To avoid considering the bonuses swordsman would give)
Responses appreciated and welcome.
Does having higher melee/range defense workout better than having high state defenses?
Picking up fencer would give me 71 melee defense and 111 ranged. Picking up Pistoleer gives a spread of some very large numbers to the states.
What have your experiences been? Does getting hit less make up for the lack of defenses? Also I have read that counterattack caps at 125. This true? (To avoid considering the bonuses swordsman would give)
Responses appreciated and welcome.
Otegu123
Thu Oct 21, 2004 3:59 am
#2
I would prefer the ranged/melee defence there. Mainly because of all the rifleman out there, with 111 ranged defence, standing 1m away to a blinded rifleman theywon't do much.
Up to you though,71 melee defence will barely do anything... All the melee profs will still hit you pretty easily.
Up to you though,71 melee defence will barely do anything... All the melee profs will still hit you pretty easily.
Warmaker01
Thu Oct 21, 2004 4:39 am
#3
I used to be a firm believer of higher ranged/melee def. vs status defenses if I had to choose one or the other. After my experiences, I have to change sides on that.
PvE- Great Ranged / Melee Defense is great... up to a certain point. Once you get to the upper level or even mid-level MoBs, these defenses don't matter. You will be hit, regardless. To make it worse, if you had forsaken state defenses for range / melee defense, you will suffer accordingly. Or, your defenses will actually lessen the number of attacks that get through, but when you consider the multiple MoBs attacking you, it doesn't matter... many attacks will still land.
PvP- Any decent PvP'er will have good accuracy. Your ranged / melee defense will not matter. You will be hit often and if you don't have state defenses or dodge / block / counterattack, or damage mitigations, you will hurt... BAD
What you need as far as a template goes:
* State Defenses
* Either Block / Counterattack /Dodge. Dodge works far better right now, IMO. Counterattack? Not reliable enough... oh, and if you're Fencer / Pistoleer utilizing Center of Being, you're far better off than having great Ranged / Melee Def.
* Armor, Foods, Drinks, Buffs (no brainer here).
* Damage Mitigations would be quite nice.
- Ranged / Melee Def. is a mere side bonus for higher end stuff and PvP.
"If they can be fooled, they can be killed."
Otegu123
Thu Oct 21, 2004 4:52 am
#4
Warmaker01 wrote:
I used to be a firm believer of higher ranged/melee def. vs status defenses if I had to choose one or the other. After my experiences, I have to change sides on that.
PvE- Great Ranged / Melee Defense is great... up to a certain point. Once you get to the upper level or even mid-level MoBs, these defenses don't matter. You will be hit, regardless. To make it worse, if you had forsaken state defenses for range / melee defense, you will suffer accordingly. Or, your defenses will actually lessen the number of attacks that get through, but when you consider the multiple MoBs attacking you, it doesn't matter... many attacks will still land.
PvP- Any decent PvP'er will have good accuracy. Your ranged / melee defense will not matter. You will be hit often and if you don't have state defenses or dodge / block / counterattack, or damage mitigations, you will hurt... BAD
What you need as far as a template goes:
* State Defenses
* Either Block / Counterattack /Dodge. Dodge works far better right now, IMO. Counterattack? Not reliable enough... oh, and if you're Fencer / Pistoleer utilizing Center of Being, you're far better off than having great Ranged / Melee Def.
* Armor, Foods, Drinks, Buffs (no brainer here).
* Damage Mitigations would be quite nice.
- Ranged / Melee Def. is a mere side bonus for higher end stuff and PvP.
Idisagree, with 111 ranged defence - pistoleer's, carbineer's and rifleman will not hit you much if after being blinded. Against certain profs, i.e. tkm, melee defence matters very little, and your far better off with high state defence. But, against rifleman etc, your far better off with ranged defence, whereas state defence is almost worthless.
Feomatar
Thu Oct 21, 2004 5:35 am
#5
I also prefer ranged/melee defense... states aren't a big problem for me because almost noone really uses them in pvp.. the only often used state is dizzy, but even that's not a real problem for me since i get up from dizzy/kd within a few seconds.
My problems in pvp are DoTers (mostly pikemen), riflemen and speedcapped swordsmen... all of them have low accuracy and won't get many hits through high melee/ranged defenses when blinded.
Capped melee/ranged defense is also great for low - mid level pve.
That's why i'll become master carbineer + master fencer (not only for defenses, also for not being useless in high-level pve) + tka 4003 (for mediate against DoTs and defense) + medic 2000 once i get +25 carbine speed and drop armorsmith (
).
).
TAfirehawk
Thu Oct 21, 2004 5:45 am
#6
My solution to this problem was to get BOTH
Carbineer - Fencer - Pistoleer and then either TKA or Scout/Medic
Throw in some SEA's and you only have to fear a Jedi or CM.....
Oh, and 85% Comp with sliced PSG's and Krayt and DoT Carbines don't hurt either 
DroDa59
Thu Oct 21, 2004 6:38 am
#7
yesterday I thought of something, I'll posta new thread for it too. but here it goes, if you don't have BH carbs.
Master TKA, to have a strong offensive power at short range, and great ranged/melee defense. it also gives you Melee Mitigation 3.
Master Carbineer to be great at ranged offense, and some defensive power, but not much. but it gives you Ranged Mitigation 3, also.
Pistoleer, don't remember the name, but the 4 skills with state defense, you know +40 against dizzy and something...
you'll have some skills remaining, feel free to use it where you want.
but that's when you don't go with BH Carbs, cause you'll need much more skills for scout and marksman
AdmiralSpy
Thu Oct 21, 2004 9:21 am
#8
Feomatar wrote:
That's why i'll become master carbineer + master fencer (not only for defenses, also for not being useless in high-level pve) + tka 4003 (for mediate against DoTs and defense) + medic 2000 once i get +25 carbine speed and drop armorsmith (
I had the *exact* same template (w/ 25 in speed), and while capped out ranged/melee is definitely great, dropping TK and going up Pistoleer 0040 is much better as far as PvP is concerned. Even in PvE, capped out ranged/melee defense is worthless when you hit the high-level stuff.
Right now I'm M. Carbs, M. Fencer, Pistoleer 0040, Medic 0040 (better than 2000 or even 4000) and Combat Prowess 1002). It's better than the current template you're going for on many levels.. trust me on this one.
The only downside is the lack of meditate, but healing wounds is overrated (just logout in the med center if you're desperate) and in PvP, you don't really have time to meditate off DoTs in the heat of the battle anyway. PvE DoTs wear off.. so really you're looking at the very slim cases where you're dueling someone who hits you with a DoT or when you win a PvP battle and your DoT is still ticking (at which point any team doctor can take em off much faster.)
Message Edited by AdmiralSpy on 10-21-2004 12:23 PM
AdmiralSpy
Thu Oct 21, 2004 9:27 am
#9
DroDa59 wrote:
Master TKA, to have a strong offensive power at short range, and great ranged/melee defense. it also gives you Melee Mitigation 3.
Master Carbineer to be great at ranged offense, and some defensive power, but not much. but it gives you Ranged Mitigation 3, also.
Pistoleer, don't remember the name, but the 4 skills with state defense, you know +40 against dizzy and something...
you'll have some skills remaining, feel free to use it where you want.
Also very good, provided you're speedcapped. Most of us prefer the raw defenses of Master Fencer, but TKM beats Fencer in PvE, and its a much more balanced PvE/PvP template.
There's pretty much a thread dedicated to the combination of melee professions with Carbineer in the FAQ.
AdmiralSpy
Thu Oct 21, 2004 9:34 am
#10
I also wanted to point out the following trade-offs PvP-wise concerning State defenses vs. Primary defenses.
Ranged Defense and Melee Defense make you harder to hit. Considering most people have high accuracy, though, the effect isn't all that strong. But let's say you get hit 1/2 the time (which is a gross approximation) with capped out ranged/melee instead of say in the +70s/80s.
The problem still occurs when you are intimidated. You lose ALL your CounterAttack/Dodge/Block and suffer a 50% damage output reduction. If someone is a Master Brawler, your damage output is even further reduced. Your CoB is gone, you're like a Novice Brawler in terms of defense. Good luck trying to avoid hits.
You get blinded. You just lost your accuracy. Good luck trying to hit any defense-stacker (most people) now. Might as well sit on the side lines and cheer your team on.. that's all you can do.
You get dizzied. You better hope you don't stand or someone doesn't KD/posture change you. Oh wait, you're a Carbineer with little or no defense (even with Fencer, it'snot enough.) If you didn't take KD food, you're cooked.
You get stunned. You're now taking slightlymore damage, dishing out slightly less damage, and people can inflict states on you within seconds. You're now also blinded, intimidated and dizzied, heh.
You get knocked-down. The game is over.
To recap, while being hit less is a good thing, being able to withstand your opponents strongest attacks (states) is even more crucial. People die in PvP because of states and DoTs. Rarely do I see someone being slugged to death by constant spammed damage attacks.
Message Edited by AdmiralSpy on 10-21-2004 12:35 PM
Darksc8p
Sat Oct 23, 2004 3:24 pm
#11
TAfirehawk wrote:
My solution to this problem was to get BOTH
Carbineer - Fencer - Pistoleer and then either TKA or Scout/Medic
Throw in some SEA's and you only have to fear a Jedi or CM.....
Oh, and 85% Comp with sliced PSG's and Krayt and DoT Carbines don't hurt either
And I think I should agree with you and revert back to what a lot of people say: Carbineers are support personnel and 1 on 1 PvP though is very well possible, is not advised under most condtions. One thing though I have learned in the time I've actually been involved with PvP (which is only in about the last 2 months), Jedi's hate state effects and as long as they're not on you and are being bothered by some defense stacker - pile them on. I alone made a Jedi eat 3 holo's while 2 TKM's beat on him until....opps!.....no more force to be had. Incap and a DB from the TKM.....next Jedi please. Oh yea, and for the flamers, he was un-ranked but fun none-the-less to beat on.
forgoten
Sat Oct 23, 2004 11:05 pm
#12
Well, ranged defense to me imo, doesn't do much. Sure you can have a high defense value, but you will still get hit, (even if you claim not to get hit that often, you still take hits, /shrug) and if you do get hit you can stim b heal it away, or just always move, when i dueled a rifleman today, i literly, run around them in cirlces, nonstop, (seriously) its easy to bypass ranged defense or melee defense, all they have to do is eat some food. instant 40accuracy, States however are harder to heal once you have them, usually its just a wade it out for a while, or run to a doc, (or if your a doc, then more power to you) Let me paint a picture for you.
more power to you) Let me paint a picture for you. You have ranged defense 500, melee defense 500. They eat food, you still get hit, and will take hits, you will never be invulnarable. Stim b's and state defenses are your friends. And of course a high counterattack/block/dodge. (and if your really concerned about getting hit, get a good set of armor, and a good buff, take vercupti before you battle, that might take the first 1% damage off you, and carry some decent stim's or have a medic in your group)
Imagine a melee pounding a dizzy on you, having a carbineer using state attacks clobbering you at the same time, (docs and stim b's apply once again, to me (imo) not so much uber leet 300ranged defense,cm area heals, doc rez/superheals,) its the states, the "dizzy,posturedown,knockdown," that will ultimately put you 'down'. a dizzy, kd, then all of a sudden they are doing 50% more damage.
Conclusion/possible solutions: novice medic/stim b's, have a doc/cm friend healing you, (buffs, food, of course)
p.s. so once again im overkilling totally here, having high state attacks will give you 'protection' the rest is covered by buffs/armor/and medic friends, or stims.
Skinned
Sun Oct 24, 2004 2:56 am
#13
Go up the pistoleer techniques tree for sure, get that state defense. Melee defense doesn't matter too much if you can't be knocked down and kite well, but if you need it too much to 0044 pistoleer to get the pistoleer melee def, those points would be better spent on BH pistols 4 to get Torsoshot, supa PvP skill, fire DOTs are good.
States are the only way I kill people, I can't /aim /aim /aim /cripp someone unless they're flopping on their back, and if you stack /aim up you'll seriously crip stackers for over 1k often with a good carb, especially if they don't have any ranged mitigation and you're using a laser carb.
But I eat my KD good and eat Synthsteak, drink two brandies, and equilbrium my mind when I lower it with HAM costs of high carbine specials, most of my duels last under 4 or 5 minutes either way they go. Exploration 4 for BH helps alot, when I kite I use hills to the best advantage I can, I totally avoid flat ground because most PvPers forsake utility for defense/attack. You can also /maskscent and have him chase ya through a group of critters if they're that not bright, have had voritors help me before since I was basically invisable to them.
All in all, State def > Melee/Ranged def, unless you have a metric *&$^ton of it.
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