Carbineer Archive
Thread: Regarding todays announcment of carbiners (9/18)
Ifyou didn't see it the disscussion forum posted changes in the pipe for carbiners. Looks promissing but below are my issues.
Thanks for the update!
On Carbines:
I would rather have the weapon stats be modified for a more significant reduction in ham costs much like the composite fix that was recently done. I fear that if a solution is applied to the move only then the ham savings will not be as significant. I’d rather have to upgrade my arsenal due to out moded weapons then go through rounds of mechanics changes. The cost on the weapons to begin with are too high.
On Specials for Carbines:
Perhaps a naming convention change is in order to avoid confusion going forward. /legshotcone is much more intuitive then /legshot3 as it currently implies and upgrade to an existing attack. This would allow a novice to be able to distinguish the area attacks and place them in a special tab according to function. /actionshotcone /legshotcone and any other cone attacks should be noted as such.
That being said I don’t know that a cone attack is a particularly satisfying upgrade to the higher level special moves. Many times on a higher level encounter I am surrounded by non agro mobs that I don’t want to involve in the fight and a cone attack would actually be a penalty for the upgrade. I would suggest that there be single target version of these attacks that be made available at the same time as the cone so we can have to benefit of promoting the skill without having to consider the negative aspects.
Carbines HAMS I think was going to be lowered as an alternative.
I wouldn't mindhaving the carbines do alot more dmg if the HAMS were still same, but I mean alot more... fix it like commandos 
, 1 shot ppl with fullauto2 or cripple shot in pvp would be nice,if they don't fix the HAMS.
The issue I have is that carbines do not do enough dmg as oppose to other professions. A good carbine (not using advanced material) only does a little more dmg then say a good pistol, and pistols rate of fire being higher... it leaves us in the dust. Riflers, are slower but they do way more dmg then carbineers, I think they should address the fact that carbines should do more dmg then pistols, with lower HAM costs, but not as much dmg of a rifle because rifles are meant to be stronger but slower, we're suppose to be in the middle of the dmg/speed between pistoleers and rifleers yet we are not even close to what we are suppose to be.
I don't think that we necessarily are entitled to a single target equal of our cone attacks. Or rather, I think we are, but we already have them.
See, if you read #3, "I’d like to see carbines as halfway between the slow speed/high damage of riflemen and lower damage/higher speed of pistoleers. They should have a wider variety of area/high rate of fire attacks, but less "finesse" attacks. Attacks like scattershot will be improved to the point that they are viable alternatives to the focused attacks such as bodyShot."
This implies to me that carbineers aren't necessarily supposed to get a lot of very high damage moves distributed evenly throughout the ranks. This bit about having a wide variety of area attacks seems to be countered by not having great targetted damage (finesse) options -- lower damage single-target pool targetting (legshot2), coupled with an AE upgrade (the only AE targetted attack that I know of). Similarly for fullauto, one of our better damage moves early on -- it's not super-amazing damage, but we get an AE version of it as well.
It seems like we're meant to have one very high damage move (crippling shot), and since we get the flexibility of having AE flavors of nearly everything else (which is pretty cool, if you ask me, provided they fix defenses so that groups can afford to let us unleash this kind of stuff), we have to make due with a little less ability to do monstrous pool-specific damage. Fullautoarea for damage, actionshot2 for bleeds and suppression, legshot3 for mid-range damage targetted pool, chargeshot2 for KD -- that's a powerful AE arsenal. That's bleed, 5x + damage, KD/posture, and even targetted damage, all in cones! To balance that out, our single target stuff may be lackluster, but I think cripplingshot and scattershot are still pretty potent options.
And personally, I'd rather have them shave some HAM off the moves rather than the weapons. Why? Because it's the moves that have the really out-of-whack values compared to the other professions.
Nothing promising about today's news. They are going to lower ham costs... woopy! If our specials worked right they wouldn't have to lower ham costs.
They're going to investigate legshot 3... aparently they still are unsure if it's really broken... they need more investigating.
Meanwhile all of the other broken skills go unmentioned and pistols becomre twice as fast.
Well if legshot3 is supposed to be area effect, it's most definatly broken. I have never hit more than a single target with this shot.
Legshot2 seems to do the same damage as has been said before.
Basically the legshots are fairly useless, the only time I ever use them now is if a mob has really low action left and I want to guarantee a 1 or 2 shot kill.
Personally I would prefer that Legshot 3 be a single-target, improved damage version of Legshot 2. Cone effects sound cool and seem to be intended as one of our profession strengths. However, AOE effects have generally been suicide moves in practically every other MMO that had them, what with the massive aggro that would be called down on you or your team's heads. The situation is even worse here, now that since the KD/PC nerf, our remaining methods of crowd control are unwieldy at best, unreliable and unusable at worst.
Also, consider the pool targeted. The Bodyshot line is useful because it stacks with the most commonly dealt damage of all weapons, health. Headshot is good because it deals unhealable mind damage. Legshots target action and are good because.....someone answer that for me because I don't really know! If I'm going to focus on the action pool, I want to be able to hurt it effectively, not just do a little bit of damage to the action pools of several (now) angry mobs.
Just wanted to add that I am perfectly happy with having all of our other abilities with the cone effect. I just feel that in order for Legshot 3 to be viable, it has to remain single-target and gain a better increase in damage.
Otherwise, it will be ignored in favor of other moves like Wildshot 2, which is AOE, stuns, and has a cone, just like Legshot 3 issupposed tohave,but has the advantage of doing better than just a 2.5 modifier to damage, and it can also target health.
IF aoe worked right, then i'd be happy
instead, we're going to have another broken special...i guarantee it (i mean, before it wasn't broken really...it was just legshot2 in disguise. now, it'll call down aggro on us from the group of mobs WITHOUT damaging them.)
Rifleman here. Just wanted to check out what you Carbineers were thinking about the proposed changes. Most of the Rifleman seem to be against it for the following reason.
Right now it is possible to craft a FWG5 pistol with 50-261 stats. Those are base stats. A rifle would have to have stats of 300-1566 base stats to be equal. Six times slower six times the stats to make it equal. I didn't see what speed they were looking to cap carbines at. I assume it would be in the middle so 1.5 or 2 seconds. That would give a carbine stats of 150-783 or 200-1044 as base stats.
Add in special moves modifiers and you are looking at one shot kills possible from Carbineers and Rifleman on a good hit.
The propsed may or may not help you guys. You would be able to do up to 8 combos. That's about 12 to 16 seconds to complete. For us it would be 24 seconds which makes it unviable since after two shots the MOB starts moving towards you or warps to melee range. After that our chance to hit goes out the window. Run n gun penalties on top of close range rifle penalties makes the chance of hitting very low. I assume you guys would have a similiar problem though your close range penalties are a bit lower the run n gun would still hurt enough to break the combo usually.
My main concern is they are looking at putting in the speed caps then maybe later increasing damage. To keep the damage equal they would have to increase the carbine and rifle stats to points they have previously said were to powerful.
The only other option would be a radical change in the combat system to compensate or a nerf for the pistols (the most popular combat class according to the Devs).
yeah...
but then, as soon as we got our new 'uber' weapons, all the pistoleers would cry nerf, and we'd have the base shlock again...with lower speeds.
i see NO benefit for the speed-cap change, except to pistol-users (i don't give a rats a$$ what prof you are...if you use a pistol, you'll benefit. if you don't, you'll suffer terribly after 1-2 days, guaranteed). NONE.
i just had a 50-min arg witha friend who was adamantly FOR the changes...but he couldn't come up with a single reason WHY. why are they needed, why can't they fix broken specials first, why waste time coding this slop-fest in with so many other problems, why why why?? /rant off
but yeah, i was excited...then i read the post again, and again, and again. and i liked it less tahn half as much the time before when i read it before =/
Waste93 wrote:
Rifleman here. Just wanted to check out what you Carbineers were thinking about the proposed changes. Most of the Rifleman seem to be against it for the following reason.
Right now it is possible to craft a FWG5 pistol with 50-261 stats. Those are base stats. A rifle would have to have stats of 300-1566 base stats to be equal. Six times slower six times the stats to make it equal. I didn't see what speed they were looking to cap carbines at. I assume it would be in the middle so 1.5 or 2 seconds. That would give a carbine stats of 150-783 or 200-1044 as base stats.
Add in special moves modifiers and you are looking at one shot kills possible from Carbineers and Rifleman on a good hit.
The propsed may or may not help you guys. You would be able to do up to 8 combos. That's about 12 to 16 seconds to complete. For us it would be 24 seconds which makes it unviable since after two shots the MOB starts moving towards you or warps to melee range. After that our chance to hit goes out the window. Run n gun penalties on top of close range rifle penalties makes the chance of hitting very low. I assume you guys would have a similiar problem though your close range penalties are a bit lower the run n gun would still hurt enough to break the combo usually.
My main concern is they are looking at putting in the speed caps then maybe later increasing damage. To keep the damage equal they would have to increase the carbine and rifle stats to points they have previously said were to powerful.
The only other option would be a radical change in the combat system to compensate or a nerf for the pistols (the most popular combat class according to the Devs).
Well, see. If they're doubling pistol speed, I think they can make enough of a case to halve pistol damage and not take flak for it (aside from idiots). So I think they can keep pistols right where they are without really being percieved as nerfing them. So now your rifle has to be 150-783 to be equal -- but are you taking into account armor rating (and yes, I know FWG5 is heat, I'll get to that in a second)? Let's equalize them against AR0 stuff -- assume an E11 rifle for AR2 (since we're talking FWG5, not DX2 -- balancing a T21 to those numbers would be easier for the extra AR). That's about 56% increased damage, so we can figure roughly 2/3s the target actual damage for the listed damage. Thus, you need a rifle with stats of 100-500.. That doesn't look too bad, to me. It's probably still an increase in damage to go with the decrease in speed, but not so much that you'll be one-shotting moderate mind pools (I don't think?), right?
Now, I said I'd get to the heat damage, right? Well, to account for this, I think they might be well served to let vulnerabilities take effective AR down to zero *before* the AR difference is calculated -- so rifles and carbines with both AR and specialty damage get bonus damage on vulnerabilities -- the FWG5 has no AR, and so would lose relative ground there to let the other two make up for the FWG5's high damage stats.