Carbineer Archive
Thread: BH Love: For PvP or PvE?
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AdmiralSpy
Thu Jul 01, 2004 6:22 pm
#1
A lot of people I know are excited about the new BH skill requirements. It means that they can enhance their skills significantly. Former BHs needed this, and much more actually, but it's a great start.
For us Carbineers, it means that about a third ora quarter of us who are into PvE/PvP and who dedicate their character entirely to combat (as opposed to say Master Carb. and Master Architect or M. Carb / CH.. etc..) will dabble into the Bounty Hunter line.
Still, I find that many of my in-game friends are selling off their SEAs and leveling too fast.. without proper consideration. This thread is aimed at those who, like me,can easily afford (or have) several Carbineer SEAs, and are honestly debating if the new BH modification is worth it.
I mean, these templates that we are seeing are all great.. but regardless of what you say, will get their butts handed to them by any good melee'r in PvP. There's simply not enough defense in either Carbineer and BH to survive- atleast not on Starsider (no big fights means that you pretty much PvP in small groups of 3 or 4... and everyone is either CM or has some form of melee in their builds.)
That and the fact that the carbines that I use for PvP are atleast 2.7 or so in speed before slice (-0.3 tissue and -0.5 stock can make a 2.7 Laser, for example.. any better tissue goes lower), and being at speedcap with +25 in speed SEAs means that I'd be sacrificing Master Fencer and it's kick-ass defenses (I'm capped on Ranged and Melee too) simply for accuracy bonuses.
As it stands, I rarely miss a shot if I open with an Intimidate (which nullifies ranged/melee defense as well.) If I use LegShot2 about 3-4 times.. my target is stunned. I'll then rarely miss a KD. Hence, while getting something like 180-200 and more Accuracy due to the BH line sounds appealing.. is it needed?
We know that accuracy and speed are being redone. Maybe we won't need these boosts when the Combat Balance hits. Some of you may throw in the argument about FireKD, and more specifically, Confusion and Spray Shot. Well folks.. I've gone 1 on 1 against every possible BH/Carbineer template currently possible.. and while I do drool at the fact that they can stick dizzy and stun rather fast.. the fact that I have Master Fencer (substitutable for Pistoleer 0043, etc.) means that they usually miss, and if not, my Mitigation 3 and KD defenseis going to win them.
From a PvE standpoint - you're not getting anything more from the BH line unless you're a Bounty Hunter first, and then a Carbineer. Already, we're not inflicting any different forms of damage.. and for those of us who are speedcapped, CrippleShot at a 2.7 speed Carbine or 4.3 speed carbine is the exact same. FireKD will not make you KD a krayt or stun an NS any faster.. and considering the fact that a Master Carbineer shouldn't really be missing *any* shot in PvE.. there goes BH.
To recap, I simply wish to state that the BH dabbling is fun and great.. but only for those who haven't +25 in Speed SEAs. If you do.. rethink exactly what you'd be giving up. For middle to small scale PvP - it's not all that much better.. Melee Templates and CMs will still kill you just as fast. For PvE - it's awesome.. but as soon as you get to high-level stuff.. it's all the same.
Bennyboy4308
Thu Jul 01, 2004 6:34 pm
#2
Well, it really depends on your style of play. Your right BH isn't the only and best way to bea carbineer. I like BH alot because of the accuracy and states. I've beaten a few melee stackers by keeping them on the ground for 5 straight minutes while pummeling thier 90% armor. I've even kept a dizzy/macrohealing doctor/rifleman on the ground 50% of the time till she ran out of dizzy cures.
On a side note, is Intimidate really that effective? I'm planning on going Mcarbineer/MBH and using my extra 18 points to get Pistoleer 0030 so I can eyeshot a doctor if he doesn't let me damage him with carbines. But if its really really that awesome would you suggest maybe novice brawler instead?
AdmiralSpy
Thu Jul 01, 2004 7:01 pm
#3
I never even *begin* to shoot at a Rifleman or other Melee fighter unless I have them intimidated.
Intimidate1 cuts their damage in HALF.. and sets their Ranged and Melee defense to 0. That means they rely simply on secondary state defenses.. which with Carbineer, are easy to bypass. Block and CounterAttack are however active.. but you've just effectively nullified about 3 entire branches' of defense stacking.
Intimidate2 is twice as powerful as Intimidate1.. but that would require Master Brawler.
Simply getting Novice Brawler for it? I'm not sure.. probably not. Those few seconds you are in 'melee-mode' will be fatal, seeing as you have no melee mitigation or defense. It'd be like peacing your opponent, hoping that your Intimidate lands.
Still, my perception is rather skewed, heh. Any PvPer who can use it will use it.. and against Carbineers and Fencers.. who dish out little damage as it is.. it's a killer.
Just yesterday, however, I fought a Master Pikeman without buffs and armor (he on the other hand was fully buffed, PSGd and armored.) I did use Synthsteak, however. We agreed not to use DoTs. By using my Gaffi stick and keeping him intimidated, he could not kill me.. heh. His 600 max damage pike was inflicting about 50 points of damage on me.. if he hit me (was running a CoB macro, and he was getting 1 out of 5 shots in.)
I, on the other hand intimidated him, 1-hand blinded, 1-hand dizzied, warcried, ran to 30m, pulled out the Carbine, LegShot2'd, ActionShot2d, ChargeShotted, and CrippleShotted him down in 30 seconds.
A Master TK (buffedbut unarmored) tried the same. Popping 1 synthsteak, I intimidated him. Having Fencer, he could not KD me when I was dizzied, and my Intimidate defense meant that he could not cut my damage or remove my capped Ranged and Melee defenses either. I pulled the same tactic.. and while it wasnt as effective because he was a smart player.. it was his utter lack of Ranged Mitigation that killed him.)
Then.. (phew!) I got buffed and duelled a 3400 BH / Carbineer. He used armor and I didn't. Once intimidated, I could stand at 45m (his ideal range on his carbine), and aside from the fact that he missed often, when he was hitting.. was only doing about 120ish points of damage. With buffs, the regen speed of HAM far outweighs his damage. He did manage to KD/Dizzy me and keep me on the ground, however, at which point I warcried him (spamming stand/warcry), got up, and finished him off with a standard dizzy/KD/CrippleShot using Master Carbineer only.
Novice Brawler won't cut it. For PvP, however, the Carbineer/melee-stack route, in my mind, is a lot more fun and viable. For PvE.. intimidate against any high-level MOB is of course a must, but odds are that you'd have atleast one tank with you to do that, so it's not an issue.
Bennyboy4308
Thu Jul 01, 2004 7:07 pm
#4
Actually I noticed while leveling my Smuggler up (who had novice brawler as a req of course) he could intimidate while holding a pistol, just needed to be in melee range. And now I'm interested to see if warcry is the same (never heard of using it while KD'd, brilliant!). If the warcry thing works while holding a gun I think I'll do it for sure. Absolutly brilliant...
AdmiralSpy
Thu Jul 01, 2004 7:13 pm
#5
I'd be inclined to say that Intimidate and Warcry cannot be used while holding a Ranged weapon, like all melee hits.. buuuut..I could have sworn that I did accidentally switch to my Fencer toolbar while having my Carbine equipped and hit warcry.. and it stuck. I can't believe I've actually never tested it out, heh. Damn. That could give me a HUGE edge.. now that the 3-second delay is killing me (I honestly switch between Carbineer and Fencer every 5-10 seconds, haha.)
Can anyone confirm this? My guess is that it was just a graphical / lag time bug.. but hey.. one can hope!
Actually, yeah, the /stand /warcry combination is rather useful, heh. Since I'm not a Doc.. it's my only chance to get away from being dizzy/KDd. Using /stand /intimdate works too.. but perhaps not as effectively.. they are still hitting you. 10 seconds is usually enough to get up from a dizzy, though.. assuming that it wasn't a lucky 30 second-ish "sticky" one (still not sure how that works, too.)
Bennyboy4308
Thu Jul 01, 2004 7:18 pm
#6
AdmiralSpy wrote:
I could have sworn that I did accidentally switch to my Fencer toolbar while having my Carbine equipped and hit warcry.. and it stuck. I can't believe I've actually never tested it out, heh. Damn. That could give me a HUGE edge.. now that the 3-second delay is killing me (I honestly switch between Carbineer and Fencer every 5-10 seconds, haha.)
Can anyone confirm this? My guess is that it was just a graphical / lag time bug.. but hey.. one can hope!
Actually, yeah, the /stand /warcry combination is rather useful, heh. Since I'm not a Doc.. it's my only chance to get away from being dizzy/KDd. Using /stand /intimdate works too.. but perhaps not as effectively.. they are still hitting you. 10 seconds is usually enough to get up from a dizzy, though.. assuming that it wasn't a lucky 30 second-ish "sticky" one (still not sure how that works, too.)
I KNOW i was repeatidly intimidating quenkers while grinding the Pistol lines in Smuggler. I also made a post in the BH forums asking if Intimdate is worth the 15 SP and I got a very loud "HELL YES"
As to the dizzies, it really depends on the profession that stuck it on you. FullAuto's dizzies are 15-20 seconds while BHs and Rifleman'sis around 30 seconds. I hear TKA's dizzy can last up to 60 seconds. I think Def vs. Dizzy lowers the timer so maybe your 10 second dizzies are BH or rifle while your 30 second is TKAs.
RebelKangaroo
Thu Jul 01, 2004 7:22 pm
#7
I can confirm that warcy and intimidate can be used holding a ranged weapon. I was doing it last night killing quenkers with my just novice carbine skills. 
AdmiralSpy
Thu Jul 01, 2004 7:23 pm
#8
Well there you have it.
But.. asking on the Bounty Hunter forums is of course asking them if investing 15 SP to withstand twice as much damage and removing the defense-stacking of the eeevviiilll stackers (/innoncent.. hehe).. and as it is, they need more help than we do.
Thanks for the clarification on the dizzy. Good to know. I'll dig the exact numbers sometime.
And OMG Ciet, I love you, heh. Wow.. this isexcellent news. Screw the BH line!! 
Message Edited by AdmiralSpy on 07-01-2004 10:30 PM
Bennyboy4308
Thu Jul 01, 2004 7:25 pm
#9
RebelKangaroo wrote:
I can confirm that warcy and intimidate can be used holding a ranged weapon. I was doing it last night killing quenkers with my just novice carbine skills.
Excellent news. That will be my template. Mcarbineer/MBH/Novice brawler. Master State sticker and highest possible accuracy for a ranged weapon (225 with my tapes). Stackers beware, you might just be killed by a ranged fighter.
RebelKangaroo
Thu Jul 01, 2004 7:27 pm
#10
AdmiralSpy wrote:
And OMG Ciat, I love you, heh. Wow.. this isexcellent news. Screw the BH line!!
Message Edited by AdmiralSpy on 07-01-2004 10:24 PM
Glad I could help. And it's Ciet, not Ciat.
weaponmaster88
Thu Jul 01, 2004 7:28 pm
#11
nope you can intimidate/warcry with a gun out, but don't go telling people cause it will be nerfed in a week. i used to do it all the time when i just had novice brawler with carbineer.
RebelKangaroo
Thu Jul 01, 2004 7:33 pm
#12
weaponmaster88 wrote:
...but don't go telling people cause it will be nerfed in a week.
*puts hands up* Move along, nothing to see here people!
TAfirehawk
Thu Jul 01, 2004 8:37 pm
#13
/agree 1000000% w/Addy
Except for the hush hush on Intimidate, this thread should be STICKY....
Read the FAQ and BH Love.......will be my new line for the hundreds of noobs coming in here.... 
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