Carbineer Archive

Now that the correspondant forum is (?) currently up and running, it sounds like you're getting the chance to have a little more discussion with the appropriate dev(s). As such, I imagine you're working on a list of things that you want to draw their attention towards, as well as some suggestions for solutions and/or things to look into designing and balancing towards. At least, that's the impression I got from one of your recent posts (I think it was the "We just got screwed" thread).

So, that post made me wonder, what kinds of stuff is on your plate of issues you're pushing -- especially the stuff you're "trying to squeeze in ... to depict our role better"? I think a bunch of us would love to hear the things you're offering up, and would appreciate the chance to help you work through some ideas if you need it.

yes i would be really interested to hear how u are gonna aproach this are u gonna give them the whole list of problems sorted by importance or just try for one thing at a time?

either way good luck and please keep us updated as much as u can i know they told u u cannot tell us everything u talk about there but any info u can pass onto us good or bad will be welcome

Well, right now I'm working on on specials. With HAM costs supposedly being looked into and being changed, the next issues that come up in mind are Specials and Weapons. With Specials I'd like to slump in the PC timer / AP Issues / dizzy issues and MOBs getting up immediately after PC or KD (which is being investigated). All of these are quite class defining. AP is a HUGE advantage that Riflemen and Carbineers have over pistols.. and it's disappointing that AP is bugged in some ways (the DX2 even seems to work and not work). I'm working up SShots for that.

Dizzy not working is severly limiting our ability to keep something down, even slightly. With MOBs getting up immediately after KD/PC, it really puts KD/PC moves to shame. However, the Devs are aware of that one and are investigating. I think PC/KD was a big problem, with farming XP with skills such as Action Shot 2 and keeping krayts and etc.. from moving or being a threat. Unfortunately for us, the MOBs behavior to get up immediately is a real pain and hopefully one that will be gone in the near future.

I have took the initiative to move in on our specials that arn't working and possible proposals to fix them as a top issue. However, nothing is final of course. As you mentioned, I would definately like to hear all of this community's responses, ideas, suggestions, etc.. In fact, Iam going to make a thread for this such reason, so head's up for that. The Correspondent Forum is a direct source to get something under the attention of the Devs. I could go with a full report but at the moment I would like to focus on big issues. However, I will most likely send along a direct and complete issues list.

So the speed mods are not an issue you are working on?

I mean its 74 pistol, 60 carbine and like 90 for rfile - Soe seems to want us in between pistols and rifles, so why not when it comes to speed?

As you may have noticed this is a really big issue for me, and I fail to see why the Carbineer is dropped to a speed like that. It is imho together with ham costs, what keeps us out of PvP.

Anyways just wanted to know if you had that in mind, as this is an issue for carbineers only and not those that dabble into the bounty hunter line.

Well, I actually do think that our mods should be increased. This will also definately help us reach whatever cap if they are to cap us at 2.0. I really think that the proposed weapon speed caps are probably going to go through because I don't think they want everyone capped out at 1s. And right now, only BHs are able to hit that cap. I would like to see speed mods pushed up so that, if Carbineer is capped at 2.0, we can be able to hit it without BH and BHs will hit it without carbineer, I guess.

I'm really glad to hear that speed mods are on your list -- I don't see you talk about it often, and knowing that you're a BH/Carbineer, I couldn't help occasionally wondering if you a) weren't aware how severe this is, or b) just didn't care since you're employing the work-around anyways.

But even that gladness doesn't beat my satisfaction to hear that you're pushing hard for PC/KD anddizzy.

Since you echoed my guess that you're open to suggestion, I think that as part of your discussion on the problems with current KD/PC implementation, you should really stress how carbineer's moves seem oriented toward crowd control and crowd combat -- yet there are really no viable methods to undertake such combat. I think it'd really strengthen the case if you point out that melees are such poor tanks that nobody would even think of asking one to tank multiple mobs, so player tanking's out. Creatures are really a cop-out, and much too specific in their requirements to be balanced as the most effective way to fight (ie, creature handler being a must-have for a group or solo since it's the only thing that can tank). And then the KD/PC timer kills off any hope of crowd combat by posture control.

Personally, I think the player tank is the most attractive option for combat vs. a single target (most attractive meaning the one that seems most fitting and fun, assuming it is made to work), while posture change/KD a good approach to multiple-enemy encounters. To make this work in a balanced way, what needs to be done is to remove the timers, and instead ensure that mobs have appropriate knockdown/posture change resistances based on type and (this part's important) con. Working resistances is a really elegant solution, since it's a stackable one -- assuming the timers go the way of the dodo, super-tough-hard-to-kill-creature_01 is really tough to take on solo. Not only because he cons red, but because you've only got one person trying to keep it under control. Now, make it a larger group -- the con is lower, so you instantly get a little better shot per attack, but you also, presumably, have several KD/PC capable players. Even if the percentage is relatively low, you can keep it under control by assigning enough players to KD/PC. In concordance with this, KD/PC shots need to be lowered in damage, which also helps abet their overuse in PvP. The other thing that factoring in con helps with is this: social (group aggro) creatures tend to be lower con than non-social ones of the same difficulty. Thus, a group can get two missions, and have similar chances with each -- it's harder to control the higher con, but you're only dealing with one of them. The lower con social stuff, is easier to control, but you have more chances to miss/resist against one or two of them.

By stressing this need for fundamental changes in the *way* we're able to fight, you can not only open up the discussion towards how the carbineer fits into this, but also provide the solutions that lead into this role for the carbineer (and others -- it's not like we've got the only AE KD/PC around -- just the only ranged AE ones. a group can still get by with a pikeman as their AE crowd control guy (or a combination of different AE crowd control), for example, he just takes a little more risk by being in closer proximity).

Whew! That went longer than I expected.

One more thing I want to hear about -- you mentioned defining a carbineer's role. What do *you* see that as? I think a lot of us here (including me) are happy being a control kind of group contributor and/or an AE specialist, butI also think that a lot of us looked at moves like fullauto and thought machine gun = lots of damage. So what do you see as our defining features now, and what will you be fighting to see added to these or shifted to in the future?

For the Speed Mods, I once had delays on my moves, so I knew the feeling. However, I don't think I really knew as well as many other carbineers. However, I knew that the delays were long but it was hard for me to see how bad they were without having to ask someone. However, I truly didn't really get to experience the delays until I joined the Test Center and became Master Carbineer (without anything else) and got myself handed by a peko peko. I only had a CDEF, which is probably a big reason But, I have a character that suffers from the speed penalties so I know exactly how things are now.

Concerning KD/PC/Dizzy. Well, I want it to actually work right, especially if they're going to add timers to the skills. I don't expect Dizzy to work on a mob like it does a PC, but it should keep a MOB down for some times.. definately longer than what we have now. This would also benefit melee type characters. And speaking on Player Tanks, I think that's what the meleers are pushing for. I think that they are suppose to be the tanks, anyhow, and I'm sure they will be in time.

For your KD/PC idea, I think it's pretty good. There might be flaws in there that I haven't taken the time to consider but it's an idea and a good contribution.

And lastly, what do I see the carbineer as right now? ....Crippling Shot spammers. Well, that's how I see myself. Well, really. I first saw Carbiniers as a "Control" class. We have more KD/PC moves than anyone else. Then I also thought.. that Carabineers were more of an "Area Damage" class, since Pistols don't have an area attack and Riflemen.. well. Well I guess Strafe Shot 2 really puts a whipping on our area skills, but it drains their mindpool badenough that they won't be able to pump it out like we can (that is, if we have buffs or a medic, which is better than sitting around for a few minutes). There is Action Shot 2, Full Auto Areas, Wild Shots and soon to be Leg Shot 3 joining the fun for our area attacks and maybe, just maybe, Charge Shot 2 will someday join it as well!

With skills such as Charge Shot 1, Charge Shot 2 and Action Shot 1, Supression Fire 2, ActionShot2, control moves, I really thought that we distinguish ourselves from the others for controlling a monster or group of monsters. A support class. I thought that, if needed, we could help control one or multiple creatures and then even be able to damage either one or multiple targets (and even apply status effects).

About the PC/KD timers, I think that the timer was a quick and easy solution to stopping people from taking on creatures such as Krayts and Kimos and Goraxes and etc without a consequence. It could be a temporary change right now, who knows, but a better system would have to be long and drawn out with certain rules regarding KD/PC resistances and etc. Farming XP from using action shot 2 on multiple creatures (such as baz nitches or jaxes) could give you tons of XP. Perhaps if Supression Fire 2 had area PC and did 1 damage to all targets, it wouldn't have been nearly as big as AS2. However, right now the timers doesn't really give our class a chance to control much. Perhaps dizzy will help if or when it's fixed, on both MOBs and FAA. I don't know but I'd be willing to test it out.

Wow. Talk about same wavelength. Thumbs up from me, then.

I agree, if they go and remove timers from control attacks, they shouldn't be high damage. High damage + truly debilitating effect = spammable "I win" move. Their solution was to nerf the spammability of the debilitation, which is ok for one-on-one pvp stuff (as far as making it more fun for the attackee), but poor for group support. I definitely support discouraging spamming of one move by leaving the debilitation effect in (as that's what we want the move for in most of the scenarios we use it), and force you to couple it with other shots to do damage.

Interestingly enough, combos should help this, too -- combos require the use of different shots to build the combo, thereby also reducing the relative attractiveness of spamming a single move. Although I doubt it'll do much for Eyeshot spamming -- but at least I'll have the consolation that they get novice and a skill tree in something other than BH.

A big problem with KD/PC/Delay moves in PVP was that if you spammed them, even if they did 1 damage, their effects would stack and the other person would basically not have a fighting change at all. There was probably too much to fix on skills like these that timers could help. If combos were added, it would add more variety in combat which this game seems lacking. I know when I want to take something out kick, I just fill that queue up with Crippling Shot.

burning the midnight oil?

Come to my town and I'll buy you a beer or fifty, man I'm glad to see that you are fighting for us.

Kudos to you SOJ for testing out the speed, I'm really pleased that you did this, as the speed difference that seems so small in reality is huge.

As for the dizzy/knockdowns goes, well I don't know much about those, only tried chargeshot 2 times in pvp, both missed, but the bounty hunter I was fighting spammed eye shot on me = blinded. So quite naturally I missed more than usual.

However, this fight was different for me than all other pvp encounters I've been in, sure he spammed eyeshot - but this special isn't half that bad when you wear a helmet (40ish damage on his attacks). No what really made the big difference in this fight was that he didn't knock me down, I mean because he didn't have fire knockdown I was actually able to fight back.

I lost the fight still, but I had a ton more fun this way. For me its not about winning its about having fun in pvp (sure its nice to win) but i'd prefer good fair fights over a god mode anyday. And currently the dizzy/knockdown comes quite close to god mode as it removes the opponents ability to fight back.

Anyways I'll have to see more of the knockdown before, I'll form up an opinion about this.

In regards to the new speed caps, well they seem nice and balanced. To put it simple bigger hits means slower rate of fire, however if these speed caps are introduced changes must be made in the way healing is atm.

Currently the heal goes off after your next normal attack, so if the healing system is unchanged this actually means that a rifleman/doc will heal with at least a 3 sec delay, carbineer/doc at least a 2 sec delay and pistoleer/doc at least 1 sec delay. That is a killer for all rifle/docs out there, its aslight nerf to a carbineer/doc (but should still be manageable as a carbineer/doc pretty much already has this problem with the current system) for pistoleer/docs its unchanged.

Anyways, once again thanks for testing the speed, glad to know I'm not the only one that feels speed is an issue for master carbineers.

also somethign that would be great if you could bring up sometime is carbine crafting. I have a master WS friend and he basically says that he cant make advanced carbines like he can advanced pistols ( not sure about rifles, didnt ask ) but he says that the advantages for advanced carbine parts dont stack right like they should as they do with pistols.

im not sure exactly what he means, lol, i just kill things. but it would be worth a looking into.

BTW, thanks for the great job your doing SOJ.

hey, lol, found this thread about the same problem here for you soj.

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=carabineer&message.id=6621