Carbineer Archive
Thread: Finally made Master, now waiting for our class to work properly
Well after a lot of hard work I became master carbineer (or however we want to spell it) yesterday, now waiting for the specials to be fixed. In the mean time actionshot1 and scattershot2 are my best friends.
Any other master carbineers on eclipse, or anywhere for that matter ?
Solth
The devs are aparently unable to properly test professions so the players have to.
Once you are finished collecting all the stats post them here.
Seems to be working for pistoleer as aparently the devs do not listen unless you rub their noses in it with hard numbers.
I post the list every chance I get...
Area attacks only damage the target on the first shot. They only do area damage after the other monsters have been aggro'd.
ActionShot 2 - There is some debate over whether it is supposed to hit multiple targets as it does. See problem with area attacks.
FullAutoSingle 1 - this is supposed to blind, stun and dizzy. Dizzy lasts for 0 seconds. Stun is broken. According to its description, it should cause 1 missed combat turn and lowered stats. I have tested this with a fellow carbineer and it does neither. Blind appears to have no effect on melee attacks, only ranged attacks.
Scatter shot - this appears to be working ok but the damage amounts do not show properly. All hits register as 1 damage.
Wild shot - this works as promised. It stuns the target. Problem is, as mentioned above,stun is broken. See problem with area attacks.
Leg shot 3 - does the same damage as legshot 2.
Cripple shot - this is an ok attack but I don't really see it as crippling. If blind,stun dizzy worked on fullautosingle 2, this would not be a very good attack. Maybe we can get it to do some massive wounds.
Burst shot 1 - what is this even for? Really? When you have fullAuto and cripple shot? Burst shot doesn't do more than either of those, so this is worthless.
Burst shot 2 - no better than burst shot 1.
Suppression fire 2 - doesn't work.
FullAutoArea 1 and 2 - same problems as FullAutoSingle. Blind, dizzy and stun are broken. See problem with area attacks.
Charge Shot 1 - this is actually bugged but in a positive way for us.
Charge Shot 2 - doesn't do group knockdown. Doesn't even knock down the target. See problem with area attacks.
We are the only fighting class that gets no new special at master. We have the lowest +speed modifiers of any class by far.
Well Matatodos has pretty much covered whats wrong with our attacks, but I'll add my observations on a few of them :
Actionshot2 - Hits multiple targets, causes a posture down on all of them if they dont resist. From whatI have seen if you do hit multiple targets you seem to get a bleed on the creature targeted and damage on any other in the cone (this is from memory could be the other way around as I havent used AS2 on a group since the posture change timer, I now only use it on single mobs for the higher bleed than AS1). Also posture change does not always work correctly, you can hit an opponent, and the posture change works as no message is received saying you failed to affect the targets posture, but in the status bar the oponent never postures down. Added to this the duration of the posture change is completly variable some times I can hit an opponent and they stay posture down for a few seconds, other times they immediatly stand straight back up. I can understand different opponents being more or less vulnerable and being able to stand quicker, but this can happen against a lair of identical creatures, 1st one stays posture downed for 3 seconds, 2nd for 1 second, next for 2, then 1 etc etc etc. This needs to be consistent so we can plan our stategy for finishing the opponent off.
Scattershot1 & 2 - Displays the actual damage above the targets head, only shows 1 as the damage in the combat window. This is currently my favorite special seems to average around about 1200 damage with an elite carbine and not be to slow before you get your next shot.
Crippleshot is ok, but does not cause enough extra damage over burstshot or scattershot to warrant the delay is causes to attack.
Completly agree with all the comments about dizzy, stun and blind. Until these are working properly our area attacks are fairly useless. What's the point in aggroing a group when you cant control them or do enough damage to kill them before posture change wears off.
We also need speed and accuracy mods that match or beat a bounty hunter. The BH is a jack of all trades combat class specialising in taking out individual humanoid marksand should not get better mods to his weapons than a specialist in a particular weapon (this also applies to pistol as well a BH should not be faster with a pistol than a pistoleer). To all you BH's I'm not asking for you to be nerfed, I'm asking for our speed and accuracy mods to match yours.
I'm not convinced that our counterattack, defence vs knockdown etc mods work properly but have no evidence of this, just a feeling I've picked up from a lot of playing.
Finally weapons. In general carbines do not do enough damage. On eclipse the typical carbine is vastly outperformed by the typical pistol. The average pistol does as much or more damage than the average carbine and is much faster. Yes a pistol should be faster, but should not out damage a carbine. Carbines need a damage boost of 10 to 20 %, and the elite carbine should be a 200 to 250 damage weapon at least with AP2. If this means the laser carbine becomes AP1 then so be it. Laser carbine is useless to me purely because of the huge damage range.
Solth
Eryn GreyWolf
Gorath Galaxy
Carbineer/Pistoleer/Bounty Hunter
I am in full agreement with the previous posts. I had planned to pursue the Carbineer class to its Master level, took a good look at the stats in comparison with the other professions, and had to stop short. Comparing the accuracy and speed stats of the Carbineer to the Bounty Hunter, a Carbineer would be better suited to play the Bounty Hunter profession as the Bounty Hunter gets much better modifiers towards its carbine abilities (a total of +50 to both speed and accuracy just upon finishingits carbine tree, plus another +10 to accuracy at Master Bounty Hunter for a total of +60 to accuracy and +50 to speed) :
compared to the same modifiers to the Carbineer class (+20 to speed, +30 to accuracy upon finishing their respective branches of the Carbineer trees, plus another +10 to speed and another +20 to accuracy at Master Carbineer for atotal of +30 to speed and +50 to accuracy at Master level). By merely finishing the Carbine tree of the Bounty Hunter class, a Bounty Hunter not only matches, but outclasses a Master Carbineer in his chosen profession, and for one-fourth of the work with the carbine. That's just wrong. Indeed, a Bounty Hunter is meant to be a jack-of-all-trades profession, and should not outclass both a Carbineer and Pistoleer which choose those weapons as their sole focus. Those modifiers should be flip-flopped, as it makes the Carbineer class just a chore.
As far as the specials go, I do not have access to every one, but I agree with the observations to the specials I do have (legshot 3, action shot 2, and all granted at Master Marksman). Legshot 3 does not do any more damage that I can tell from legshot 2, and action shot 2 fails to change my target's posture every time. Admittedly if I hit Master Carbineer Imight be much more successful with these, but why bother when I can finish the carbine tree of Bounty Hunter and do even better?
For the weapons: A carbine in the game does typically do the same or less damage than a comparable pistol (an EE3 to an FWG5 for example), and pistols are faster. In my humble opinion, a carbine should do more damage than a pistolAND be faster, with the pistol's advantage being thein-fighting capabilities. I agree with Solth about the damage ranges, and suggest a little more to boot, perhaps around 200-350 dmg depending on the type. A carbine is the equivalent of a light assault rifle if I'm not mistaken, which will shoot faster than any pistol ever made. Realism doesn't always make fun of course, so perhaps keep the speeds within .3 or .4 points of each other, but a carbine should be faster nonetheless. An elite carbine---a weapon available only to Carbineers---should not be outclassed stat wise by an FWG5 available to a Marksman who has finished the pistol tree.The carbine stat pools could benefit from some tweaking as did the recent correction of the Commando weapons. Perhaps the rifles will needed to be tweaked as a result (as a carbine should do less damage than a sniper rifle after all), but leaving the weapons as they are leave the Carbineers sorely handicapped. In solo missions, on a team, and in PvP, a Carbineer is just not equipped to handle the demands of the battlefield.
Cloakanddagger,
I see carbines the same as you. A carbine is the equivilent of an M16, AK47 or MP5. I think our specials are meant to immitate the automatic firing of these weapons, hence they are slower than pistol, I can live with this. However a pistol should not hit for more damage than a carbine. Sure some pistols in real life are incredibly powerfull, maybe more powerful for individual shots, but they certainly cant manage the mass devestation that an assault rifle is capable of.
My current solution to carbine HAM costs is I'm working on master doc. With stat buffs and mega healing I wont care about my ham costs.
Solth
Solth,
That's actually a brilliant idea to offset the HAM costs for the carbines, and I might have to steal it from you. In all truth though, you should not have to be forced into the role of Doctor merely to play the Carbineer class, no? I agree with the idea of the speed of the handguns to compensate for the fire mode specials that Carbineers carry, but let those pistols do less damage. If you want to duplicate some heavy-duty handguns in RL to the game (Magnums, Desert Eagles, etc.) for the Pistoleers, then I'm all for it. It adds that bit of strategy and personal style to the fighting system. Make a select pistol or two do more damage than a carbine. But also, make it go SLOWER. You won't cap off 5 shots a second with a Desert Eagle, but if you're connecting, you won't need to. If a pistol is going to do greater damage, make it slow. Carbines in-game have speeds that handicap them like they're constantly at full auto, but they aren't. What's worse, the special moves meant to mimic these abilities are faulty and unreliable.Whether I'm gunning down a nest of snorbals or dueling with a Pistoleer or BH, I believe that I should be able to stand on my own abilities as other front-line battle classes do. Especially a class so blatantly self-sufficient as a Carbineer should be. I see Commandos filling the role meant for Carbineers as things stand. A 1000-3000+ dmg rocket launcher firing every 4 seconds??? Tell me another one. Come to think of it, leave pistols as they are and make carbines a 300-450 dmg weapon. Knock rifles up to 450-600, and leave LLCs at 400-800+. Tweak the speeds, fix the specials, and we've got a class to be proud of. Carbineers should be providing the fire support, not need some to operate. Put the outrageous HAM costs and speed handicaps on Commandos to regulate their fire, and solidify their role as artillery. To be forced into Doctor just to play Carbineer seems horribly unfair if that's not what you want to do. Besides which (and this'll probably come up a lot from me) why even bother with a class whose specials are screwed and get mowed down by a BHwho spentless time on it anyway? Using a little logic and common sense, this stuff doesn't seem too hard to puzzle out. I'm not typing in the code here, so I don't know how hard it is to implement this stuff, but once you know what you need to do, it only remains for you to do it. Easier said than done devs, I know. Just help us as best you can so we can stop bitching.
Going into doctor was a thought out move rather than being forced. The group I play with most often does not have a specialist medic, so I decided to fill this role, and am enjoying it, even though crafting is a real pain.
Since I made master medic/novice doc I dont find the ham costs penalise me too much, as most carbine mind costs are negligable. I can heal for 500 average with a 300 rated stim b, and knock of a heal every couple of seconds.
I also think ( and this maybe just me) that a medic/doctors support role fits in nicely with the carbineers support role.
Completly agree with all your other comments about speed and damage for carbine and other weapons.
Solth
Eryn GreyWolf
Gorath Galaxy
Carbineer/Pistoleer/Bounty Hunter
Indeed Solth, the ability to heal is very underrated by a lot of combat-minded players. I left a lot of my classes out of that little list up there, and Medic is one of my most important. I have won many a battle merely for the ability to heal myself when my opponents could not (and I hope they never do). The Medic/Doctor class is a very nice support role for the support role played by the Carbineer. But then again, the Medic/Doctor role is a nice support class for any combat class. I would love to pursue the Medic class to its completion and go into Doctor myself. I actually intended to go Doctor after I retired from combat. But, I can't do it right now because the Bounty Hunter prerequisites take up so many skill points. I intended to avoid the Bounty Hunter class altogether because of the abundance of them out there. After seriously investigating the classes, I was forced to do it anyway. I don't want to handicap myself by finishing a broken class, but Carbineer is REALLY what I want to be. Take away the Medic support from the other classes, and they still function effectively. Take away the Medic support from the Carbineer, and you got a class who'll kamikaze itself by firing its weapons on full auto. You can't play a Carbineer like a Carbineer without committing ritual suicide.
P.S.-Solth, I wish you played on Gorath so we could group together. You seem very team-oriented, and that is harder to find than an Image Designer. Good luck and good hunting, friend.
Thanks Eryn,
Good luck to you as well. Hopefully we'll get fixed ,or at least patched up to somewhere near it, in the not to distant future and you can become a true carbineer.
I had up to bounty carbine three for a while, and when I dropped it found that my miss rates increased, but not dramatically, the big difference to me was speed. Just firing normals nothing was noticable, with and carbine of around about 3 speed then I was hitting the speed cap with just the carbine skills. For specials this was completly different. If I remember correctly I had carbine 3,3,3,2 and bounty carbine 3, and could basically fire of a crippling shot at a rate of 1. Now it's probably 2.5 to 3. I dont use it anymore, the damage increase over something like scattershot2 does not warrant the reduced speed for me.
I've come to the conclusion that crippleshot is named so as it cripples the carbineer, not his opponent.
Solth
a nice little thread, and a nice little bumpage to it
also...i think that a MASTER bh could warrant being able to be better with carbines/pistols/what-have-you than the profession that chain was ganked from. anything less than that, though...
i too was a BH with carb2, then dropped to go pure carbineer and armorsmith (i wanted to try out the crafting thing, and my pa needed an armorsmith, so hey! lucky me)...and now i've dropped armorsmith, along witha whole slew of other professions, and i'm almost back up to BH (working on it in my spare time) since i can't compete ina group w/o the speed mods, and i get owned w/o buffs solo. tat sunburn, some ice cream, and medic are nice, but...=)
Eryn GreyWolf
Gorath Galaxy
Carbineer/Pistoleer/Bounty Hunter
I agree with the above post, in some respects. Obviously, I think that the Elite classes should be better in their weapons than a BH with the same weapon. If not, why even go Elite? I actually see reasonablility in a BH being about half as good, 2/3 as good perhaps. Consindering how little time they have to spend with their weapons opposed to the related Elite classes, how much sense would it make to be jus a hair under such an expert's mastery? The BHs complain about the skill points needed to make it to their class, and use that asthe reason they should be so strong. LOOK AT THE JOB DESCRIPTION. A Bounty Hunter must spend a lot of time tracking targets, accurately represented by the necessity to master the Scout class. A BH is not a PURE combat class. I'm not saying they shouldn't be strong. They should, because they have a lot of areas of expertise, and an awesome class-specific weapon in the Light Lightning Cannon. But that should be their advantage, not an overwhelming ability to burn down any other class when it's one-on-one. Using their skills and tactical expertise, a BH should be able to work his or her weapons in conjunction to drop an Elite class. At the same time though, an Elite class should be able to work their various special moves to take a BH down. When you take a look at the COMBAT STATISTICS, a Bounty Hunter spends only 2trees more than a Pistoleer or Carbineer. Those two extra trees should stand for something, no denying. Two trees in a class are a lot to fill, especially the combat classes.The Scouting prerequisite however, has nothing to do with the fighting, and it's not the fault of the Elite classes that a BH has to take up scouting to become a BH. If an Elite class cannot stand on its own, there is no purpose to it.