Carbineer Archive

I'm sure by now you guys realize you suck so I just thought I would drop a little information about how bad you guys actually suck. If you cant get some upgrades off of this, you all deserve to suck. Its a direct copy and paste, so Im not going to elaborate too much but this stems from a disagreement that the rifleman/pistoleers are having.

This is a direct rebuttal to the original post here:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=pistoleer&message.id=12637

Well, I re-ran Samra's numbers (and a HUGE thanks to him btw for starting this and doing this inital legwork) and I thought I should share them with you. I tried to use a controlled set of equipment and used 2 vendors that make VERY similar stats and provide pre-sliced weapons. I used Ardath and Meridian on the Scylla server located outside of Mos Espa. I beleive Samra posted on the other thread he was familiar with both WS's and I think could agree with the statement I made above. So, lets start looking at some data.

First the weapons:

T21: 115-333 7.5 AR3
Laser Rifle: 38-373 6.0 AR2
Elite Carbine: 95-164 3.4 AR1
Laser Carbine: 41-258 3.9 AR2
DX2: 87-143 2.6 AR1
FWG: 48-178 2.4 AR0

Yes, I'm aware that the DX2 is currently bugged. But in reality that is a bug not a balance issue so the data is included and valid. I think everyone agree with that, cause remember, we are talking balance here.

Now, DPS straight:

T21: 29.8
Laser Rifle: 38.3
Elite Carbine: 38.0
Laser Carbine: 38.3
DX2: 44.2
FWG5: 47.0

Now DPS with Armor Piercing:

T21: 58.2
Laser Rifle: 59.8
Elite Carbine: 47.5
Laser Carbine: 59.8
DX2: 55.3
FWG: 47.0

All of these numbers were described in Samra's original post and feel no need to go about explaining it over again as Samra did an excellent job. Click on the other link to get the details if you wish.

Now lets start getting to the real fun stuff.

DPS with armor piercing and speed

Master Rifleman
T21: 242.5
Laser Rifle: 345.2

Master Rifleman/Marksman
T21: 436.5 (what a difference +5 speed makes)
Laser Rifle: 359.0

Master Carbineer
Elite Carbine: 67.3
Laser Carbine: 83.5

Master Carbineer/Marksman
Elite Carbine: 79.2
Laser Carbine: 99.9

Master Carbine/BH
Elite Carbine: 161.5
Laser Carbine: 233.76

Master Pistoleer
DX2: 88.7
FWG: 75.2

Master Pistoleer/Marksman
DX2: 109.7
FWG 94.0

Master Pistoleer/BH
DX2: 143.7
FWG: 112.8

Whew, in Samra's post he used the scatter pistol instead of the DX2 as a point of reference. In all reality, there not all that much differnce in the 2. So lets get to some observations:

1) What the hell are we all complaining about. Look at those poor Carbineers. They are getting the royal shaft here unless for some reason the Elite Carbine I looked at is complete and utter crap due to resources. They need some real luvin. In all reality, their elite carbine should be doing in the neighborhood of 133 dps. Because of this, I'm going to leave Carbine out any future observations.

2) Comparing straight master pistoleer to master rifleman things look about balanced. The rifleman in this scenario is dealing about 2.73x the damage as the pistoleer. Infer what you wish, but I seem to think that this coincides with the 2.5 melee damage multiplier that rifleman endure. Most games seem to have a offense/defense tradeoff, it seems to hold true here as well.

3) There is a problem with the Master Rifleman/Marksman. This combo has a 95 speed multiplier that essentially knocks any weapon they are holding down to a 1.0 weapon speed and begins to deal over 4.5x the damage compared to a pistoleer/marksman. That's out of balance. Perhaps at master marksman they need to get rid of the extra +5 speed and replace it with accuracy or something.

4) The flip side to number 3 is that currently the rifleman has no auxilary profession to attain to enhance their skills. A Pistoleer with just BH pistol would leave the rifleman doing just 1.68x as much damage and probably equal damage as a carbineer (remember, carbine are boinked).

5) I think that the easiest solution to this problem is to cap carbine/pistol speed at 80 (the BH limit) and cap rifle at 90. To accomadate this, there would need to be a bump in the T21's stats (not much, I'm not running the numbers on this, but the same weapon instead of being 115-333 would be 120-350ish give or take a few points). The reason for the for the bump would be pistols at 80 would be doing about 110 damage, T21 would need an according bump to get to about 275 (30ish points). Re adjust for carbines as well.

6)Dan, the guy in charge of combat is a freaking moron. Complete and total idiot. We should all be thankful our guns fire in this game. In his proposal to move the firing speed to 0.5 for pistols and 3.0 for rifles, that would give master pistoleers a 177 dps assuming you could hit your speed cap. In order to keep current balance in the game, the T21 (pistols dps * 2.5) and assuming rifleman could hit their speed cap, the T21 rifle would have to be adjusted to somewhere in the neighborhood of a 500-800 weapon. HELLO, McFLY.....ANYBODY HOME!!!!!

Oh well, Im too tired to go on. I'll let you guys argue about what you see in the numbers.

Tilen
Scylla
Rifleman

Yeah, the balance problem is there, but there's a problem regardless of what you do as long as you keep caps somewhere as easy to reach as they are now. My opinion is that the best fix for that is changing the speed equation itself, to work as a speed increase instead of a delay decrease.. The exact equation doesn't have to be a direct percentage like it is now, but the basic idea would be that your speed would never reach infinity and you wouldnt have to cap speed mods like that, instead they'd be useful later on too. Also, the dps increase would be linear that way, because currently a speed mod from 0 -> 10 is a tiny increase, but 80 -> 90 is a huge thing. It would be much easier to scale it between classes.

The riflemen are saying they dont believe they'll be increasing the damages much for rifles since that'd make them one shot kill people again, which is probably right.. But it's a bad situation when you have pistols doing high enough damage to reach those one shot kills already, so the only solution to that would be to considerably lower pistol damage per shot, but that's something that'd cause waay too much problems again I bet, people dont generally take nerfs too well

Whoops, I boinked one. The Laser Rifle final DPS is 223 with master rifleman and 321 with rifleman/marksman...sorry.

Tilen
Scylla

Sarne, you're missing it. Your weapons are currently not up to par with pistols. YOU GUYS HAVE A MAJOR PROBLEM. Take the pistol DPS's with speed and multiply by 1.5. That should roughly be your final DPS number (use master pistoleer's numbers).

Tilen
Scylla

No, I'm not missing anything. I just think it'll keep being broken as long as the speed mod calculation is done in the way it is now. I'm not commenting much on if the changes they're trying to make now are gonna end up being good or bad for the balance cause there's so many ways they can do it, we'll see when they actually do something if they do. I consider that a much larger issue than what the dps different happens to be right now at certain levels.. Besides, if you went purely by what the numbers are right now, the difference between pure pistoleers and carbineers for example isnt really much to worry about, thats balanced enough in my books

<Master Carbineer
Elite Carbine: 67.3
Laser Carbine: 83.5

Master Rifleman
T21: 242.5
Laser Rifle: 345.2

Master Pistoleer
DX2: 88.7
FWG: 75.2>

Alright. I want to cry now.

If they fixed the carbineer specials this would not be such an issue. If blind, stun and dizzy worked, carbineers would be very powerful, even with a lower dps. (bacause blind, stun and dizzy would lower the actual dmg being done by the attackers).

Devs, there are the hard, cold, factual nubers. Work on it....

whiddawaht, thank god i finally saw your post. From the looks of the first posts here, no one even seemed to care that you guys were getting the shaft

Tilen
Scylla

oh, we definately care, its just that the devs apparently don't, so must of us take it up the @$$ just to save the energy we'd spend on griping....