Carbineer Archive
Thread: The Carbine In The Galactic Civil War: What is its place?
What is a carbine? Is it a submachine gun firing a rifle-sized cartridge, or is it a rifle firing a pistol-sized cartridge? The answer is both. Most carbine designs are reverse-engineered from an existing design in order to give more flexibility for a specific purpose (the CAR-15 is a good example of an M-16 being redesigned to SMG size for covert or special ops). A real world example of the rifle cartridge firing variety is the M16A2 and M4. For the pistol firing variety of the carbines you would have to look to the USC 45 Carbine.
Real world carbines as previously stated are for “special” use situations such as urban combat, insurgency, and suppression situations. I think that SWG has done a wonderful job of expressing these forms of weapons in the game. In my opinion the status effects and the wide varieties of carbines that we have were meant for mixed use in the GCW as a support combat class not as a ‘stand alone’. When large groups of enemies attack we were meant to be there with our cone shots to apply status affects, position changes, and knock downs. These attackers would mostly be the Pistoleers, Melee classes, and pets while the enemy Carbineer, Rifleman, and Commando’s provide a mixture of short and long-range support.
When you look at any of the combat professions they have distinct strengths and weaknesses. They are designed to be that way to limit individuals and strengthen groups. With some of the changes to how the game is being played more are becoming soloists and scoffing the idea of group efforts in anything except high-level content. Even when they combine their strengths they do this in the most inefficient manner possible by all rushing into the fray and not using their optimum ranges to the best effects.
I have an idea for a strike force to attack a faction enemy base. Tell me what you think about it and what you would change and why?
Group One: Used for close in base attack
1 Squadleader*
2 Commando’s* equipped with flamers and grenades
3 Pistoleer’s
1 Bio Engineer*
2 Combat Medic’s
3 Carbineer equipped with bleed and acid weapons sliced for speed
1 Swordsmen equipped with powerhammers sliced for damage
2 Terakasi equipped with vibroknucklers sliced for damage with power ups made for damage and + modifiers for pointblank
1 Fencer equipped with weapons sliced for damage
1 Pikeman equipped with weapons sliced for speed
1 Bounty Hunter*
1 Smuggler*
1 Jedi Defender
Group Two: Used for mid range support and flanking if needed
1 Squadleader*
1 Smuggler*
1 Bounty Hunter*
3 Creature Handlers/Carbineer equipped with laser carbines sliced for speed and a mixture of high energy and kinetic resists pets with specials of intimidate, stun, position change, and dizzy
2 Pistoleer’s
2 Commando’s equipped with rocket launchers, beam rifles, and grenades
2 Combat Medic’s
1 Fencer equipped with weapons sliced for damage
1 Terakasi equipped with vibroknucklers sliced for damage with power ups made for damage and + modifiers for pointblank
1 Pikeman equipped with weapons sliced for speed
4 Rifleman equipped with T21’s sliced for damage equipped with power ups made for damage.
1 Jedi Light Saber Master
Group Three: Used for reinforcements and rear support
1 Squadleader*
1 Bio Engineer*
1 Smuggler*
2 Creature Handlers/Carbineer equipped with laser carbines sliced for speed and a mixture of high energy and kinetic resists pets with specials of intimidate, stun, position change, and dizzy
2 Pistoleer’s
2 Doctor’s
1 Dancer/Musicians
2 Rangers/Rifleman
2 Pikeman equipped with weapons sliced for damage with power ups made for speed
2 Terakasi equipped with vibroknucklers sliced for damage with power ups made for damage and + modifiers for pointblank
2 Fencer equipped with weapons sliced for damage
2 Commando’s* equipped with flamers and grenades
1 Swordsman equipped with weapons sliced for damage
1 Jedi Master Force Wielder
Group Four: Used as a counter Strike force to delay or destroy base reinforcements
1 Squadleader
9 Commando’s equipped with Flamers and grenades
3 Terakasi equipped with vibroknucklers sliced for damage with power ups made for damage and + modifiers for pointblank
3 Fencer equipped with weapons sliced for damage
3 Swordsman equipped with weapons sliced for damage
1 Jedi Defender
Message Edited by BULLROACH to reflect additional advice from other forum users
Message Edited by BULLROACH on 10-06-2004 02:56 PM
Message Edited by BULLROACH on 10-05-2004 04:23 PM
BULLROACH wrote:
What is a carbine? Is it a submachine gun firing a rifle-sized cartridge, or is it a rifle firing a pistol-sized cartridge? The answer is both. Most carbine designs are reverse-engineered from an existing design in order to give more flexibility for a specific purpose (the CAR-15 is a good example of an M-16 being redesigned to SMG size for covert or special ops). A real world example of the rifle cartridge firing variety is the M16A2 and M4. For the pistol firing variety of the carbines you would have to look to the USC 45 Carbine.
The answer is neither, actually. A carbine is a carbine. It is not a SMG, nor is it a rifle. Carbines may use a large assortment of ammunition, but that does not make them an SMG or a rifle. Weapons are classified based primarily on size and use, not on ammunition used. The CAR-15 is simply an M-16A1 with a redesigned and shortenedstock and a shortened barrel. That is the very essence of a carbine... a shortened rifle. Iwould hardly consider it a SMG, though for some odd reason, Colt still calls the Colt Commando a SMG, and my best guess is because they have a full auto mode. Really, the Commando is in my opinion not a SMG, but rather a carbine. Also, SMGs fire pistol sized ammunition, hardly everrifle ammunition.
The HK USC .45 is a strange cookie, and it is hardly reasonable to use as an example of either a carbine or a SMG when comparing the 2 varieties of weapons. Yes, the USC is technically a carbine, and is very similar to the UMP .45 (a SMG), but it is not a military weapon, and thus should not be brought up in a discussion about military assault tactics. Simply put, the USC is a civilian version of the UMP. It has only one rate of fire (semi-auto) and a 16" barrel. These specs are required by US law for civilian weapons. If it weren't for the barrel and rate of fire, the USC would be a SMG.
BULLROACH wrote:
Real world carbines as previously stated are for “special” use situations such as urban combat, insurgency, and suppression situations. I think that SWG has done a wonderful job of expressing these forms of weapons in the game. In my opinion the status effects and the wide varieties of carbines that we have were meant for mixed use in the GCW as a support combat class not as a ‘stand alone’. When large groups of enemies attack we were meant to be there with our cone shots to apply status affects, position changes, and knock downs. These attackers would mostly be the Pistoleers, Melee classes, and pets while the enemy Carbineer, Rifleman, and Commando’s provide a mixture of short and long-range support.
In actuality, carbines in the real world ARE meant to be used in a "stand alone" situation. Primary uses of carbines are by special forces and non-infantry types. Special forces use them because they are lighter in weight, smaller in size, and are overall less cumbersome to carry in confined spaces. Typically, SF are the ones receiving support, not theones giving support, though theyusually act alone (without infantry support). The very reason SF carry carbines is due to the fact that they need to have more firepower than that which a pistol can supply, but rifles are too big and cumbersome.
Non-infantry types need them for pretty much the same reasons. They are commonly carried by pilots in case they are ever downed. When a pilot is downed, he has no support. If the pilot were to ever encounter enemy resistance, they must hold their own.
As far as SWG goes, I do agree with your vision of the carbineer though. Everyone has to have pros and cons. Honestly, if the carbineer class was reflective of real world specs, we would be way over powered in the game hehe. Though some real world ideas do hold true in SWG. For example, rifles have more power/damage than a carbine. This is true both in the real world as well as SWG.
Elapidae wrote:
A speed slice is useless to a TKM, they are capped, so give them a damage slice, and theyre more effective.
MehoKaric wrote:
The Colt Commando is called an SMG because even though it has the same basic build as an M16, it's chambered for 9mm, a pistol round. A sub-machinegun, by definition, is a machinegun (to use the term machinegun loosely), which fires rounds designed for use in pistols. A carbine is, also by definition, a rifle made for close quarters combat, often featuring an extremely short barrel to facilitate this.
Not true. The Colt Commando uses 5.56x45mm rounds, just as the M-16A2/A4 and the M4. All the Commando is, is a variation of the M4 with a shorter barrel (11.5" vs. 14.5"). Colt does make a 9mm SMG, but it is a diferent weapon than the Commando (though they do have a VERY similar look). Many people will argue the fact that the Commando is still a SMG, and I'm not going to say they are wrong, but I firmly feel it is a carbine. I'm willing to say it's a hybrid, so let's just leave it at that hehe.
BULLROACH wrote:
What is a carbine? Is it a submachine gun firing a rifle-sized cartridge, or is it a rifle firing a pistol-sized cartridge? The answer is both. Most carbine designs are reverse-engineered from an existing design in order to give more flexibility for a specific purpose (the CAR-15 is a good example of an M-16 being redesigned to SMG size for covert or special ops). A real world example of the rifle cartridge firing variety is the M16A2 and M4. For the pistol firing variety of the carbines you would have to look to the USC 45 Carbine.
Real world carbines as previously stated are for “special” use situations such as urban combat, insurgency, and suppression situations. I think that SWG has done a wonderful job of expressing these forms of weapons in the game. In my opinion the status effects and the wide varieties of carbines that we have were meant for mixed use in the GCW as a support combat class not as a ‘stand alone’. When large groups of enemies attack we were meant to be there with our cone shots to apply status affects, position changes, and knock downs. These attackers would mostly be the Pistoleers, Melee classes, and pets while the enemy Carbineer, Rifleman, and Commando’s provide a mixture of short and long-range support.
When you look at any of the combat professions they have distinct strengths and weaknesses. They are designed to be that way to limit individuals and strengthen groups. With some of the changes to how the game is being played more are becoming soloists and scoffing the idea of group efforts in anything except high-level content. Even when they combine their strengths they do this in the most inefficient manner possible by all rushing into the fray and not using their optimum ranges to the best effects.
I have an idea for a strike force to attack a faction enemy base. Tell me what you think about it and what you would change and why?
Group One: Used for close in base attack
1 Squadleader*
2 Commando’s* equipped with flamers and grenades
3 Pistoleer’s
1 Bio Engineer*
2 Combat Medic’s
3 Carbineer equipped with bleed and acid weapons sliced for speed
1 Swordsmen equipped with powerhammers sliced for damage
2 Terakasi equipped with vibroknucklers sliced for damage with power ups made for damage and + modifiers for pointblank
1 Fencer equipped with weapons sliced for speed
1 Pikeman equipped with weapons sliced for speed
1 Bounty Hunter*
1 Smuggler*
1 Jedi Defender
Group Two: Used for mid range support and flanking if needed
1 Squadleader*
1 Smuggler*
1 Bounty Hunter*
3 Creature Handlers/Carbineer equipped with laser carbines sliced for speed and a mixture of high energy and kinetic resists pets with specials of intimidate, stun, position change, and dizzy
2 Pistoleer’s
2 Commando’s equipped with rocket launchers, beam rifles, and grenades
2 Combat Medic’s
1 Fencer equipped with weapons sliced for speed
1 Terakasi equipped with vibroknucklers sliced for damage with power ups made for damage and + modifiers for pointblank
1 Pikeman equipped with weapons sliced for speed
2 Rifleman equipped with T21’s sliced for speed equipped with power ups made for damage.
2 Rifleman equipped with Cold damage rifles sliced for speed with power ups made for increased damage
1 Jedi Light Saber Master
Group Three: Used for reinforcements and rear support
1 Squadleader*
1 Bio Engineer*
1 Smuggler*
2 Creature Handlers/Carbineer equipped with laser carbines sliced for speed and a mixture of high energy and kinetic resists pets with specials of intimidate, stun, position change, and dizzy
2 Pistoleer’s
2 Doctor’s
1 Dancer/Musicians
2 Rangers/Rifleman
2 Pikeman equipped with weapons sliced for damage with power ups made for speed
2 Terakasi equipped with vibroknucklers sliced for damage with power ups made for damage and + modifiers for pointblank
2 Fencer’s equipped with weapons sliced for speed
2 Commando’s* equipped with flamers and grenades
1 Swordsman equipped with weapons sliced for damage
1 Jedi Master Force Wielder
Group Four: Used as a counter Strike force to delay or destroy base reinforcements
1 Squadleader
9 Commando’s equipped with Flamers and grenades
3 Terakasi equipped with vibroknucklers sliced for damage with power ups made for damage and + modifiers for pointblank
3 Fencer’s equipped with weapons sliced for speed
3 Swordsman equipped with weapons sliced for damage
1 Jedi Defender
Message Edited by BULLROACH to reflect additional advice from other forum users
Message Edited by BULLROACH on 10-05-2004 06:31 PM
EisMan_Buckeye wrote:
MehoKaric wrote:
The Colt Commando is called an SMG because even though it has the same basic build as an M16, it's chambered for 9mm, a pistol round. A sub-machinegun, by definition, is a machinegun (to use the term machinegun loosely), which fires rounds designed for use in pistols. A carbine is, also by definition, a rifle made for close quarters combat, often featuring an extremely short barrel to facilitate this.
Not true. The Colt Commando uses 5.56x45mm rounds, just as the M-16A2/A4 and the M4. All the Commando is, is a variation of the M4 with a shorter barrel (11.5" vs. 14.5"). Colt does make a 9mm SMG, but it is a diferent weapon than the Commando (though they do have a VERY similar look). Many people will argue the fact that the Commando is still a SMG, and I'm not going to say they are wrong, but I firmly feel it is a carbine. I'm willing to say it's a hybrid, so let's just leave it at that hehe.
Oh, my mistake then. Yeah, if it fires 5.56 NATO, it's a carbine and anyone who calls it an SMG is misinformed.
TAfirehawk wrote:
I am starting to wonder what all this had to do with A Galaxy Far Far Away.....
Just a friendly discussion on weapons
and weapons kick butt...and we all need weapons to survice the trip to our haversters