Carbineer Archive
Thread: Carbine Speed/Damage Discussion for FAQ Review
La-grange wrote:
Well knowlege is power. Looks like I might be going super carbineer then. Because I don't recall seeing too many 1.0 carbines.
Powerups & slices.
TAfirehawk wrote:
Lets get into the 1.0 Speed Cap in more detail.
As of this writing all professions CAN NOT fire faster than once per second with any weapon using any special. For a Carbineer we don't have to worry about the Speed Cap until near or beyond Master, so lets look at capping our slowest specials with a Special Delay of 2.5
The calculation to find what weapon speed you hit the cap for is:
Actual Speed / [(100 - Player Mod) / 100] / Special Delay = Weapon Speed
Substitute Special Delay of 2.5 and Actual Speed for 1.0 - Cap Number as of this writing:
40 / (100 - Player Mod) = Weapon Speed to Cap CrippleShot/ScatterShot2/BurstShot2/WildShot2
For example:
I) Mid-level Carbineer with +40 Carbine Speed will need a 0.67 Weapon Speed to Cap
This great info, I have understood everything so far except for this last bit on Speed Cap. I'm just not getting the formula right for some reason. Can anyone explain with some numbers in the formula? To me it seems the formular is ambiguous.
What do you mean by "Substitute Special Delay of 2.5 and Actual Speed for 1.0 - Cap Number as of this writing:"? Does this mean you don't use your Actual Firing Speed in this equation?
For example, say I have an Actual FiringSpeed of 2.40 should the formula be 2.40 / ((100-40)/100) / 2.5 = Weapon Speed or should it be 1.0 / ((100-40)/100) / 2.5 = Weapon Speed?
If it's the latter thenwhy is Actual Speed written?
Assuming I should use the 1.0 figure for Actual Speed, now I can't figure out how to perform the equation! In which order should I perform the equation? According to BoDMAS I should do the brackets first which gives me: 1.0 / 0.6 / 2.5
Does this mean I do this : (1.0 / 0.6) / 2.5 or do I do this: 1.0 / (0.6 / 2.5)? I get 0.666666667 and 0.24 respectively... which leads me to the next line
I did struggle with how to present the 1.0 Speed Cap equation. It simply tells you the weapon speed you need to fire at 1.0 sec Actual Firing Speed. All I did was substitute and re-arrange the Actual Firing Speed formula with our slowest special, 2.5, and the 1.0 Actual Speed and got the formula with a bit of algebra.
Simply look at the examples.....take the Weapon Speed I calculated with 2.5 Special Delay and the corresponding Player Mod listed and you will get an Actual Firing Speed of 1.0
Simply use the 40 / (100 - Player Mod) = Weapon Speed to Cap formula. Even though they compute to the exact same thing with reference to the 1.0 Speed Cap.
TAfirehawk wrote:
I did struggle with how to present the 1.0 Speed Cap equation. It simply tells you the weapon speed you need to fire at 1.0 sec Actual Firing Speed. All I did was substitute and re-arrange the Actual Firing Speed formula with our slowest special, 2.5, and the 1.0 Actual Speed and got the formula with a bit of algebra.
Simply look at the examples.....take the Weapon Speed I calculated with 2.5 Special Delay and the corresponding Player Mod listed and you will get an Actual Firing Speed of 1.0
Please do NOT use the first formula, that is just for reference for all those math people out there
Your example confuses me because you are looking at your Actual Firing Speed but this whole section is about finding a Weapon Speed that reaches 1.0 Actual Firing Speed. This equation has round holes but you are using a square peg
Your result of 0.66667 Weapon Speed to cap is absolutely correct for your Player Mod of +40 Carbine Speed. Sounds crazy but you need a weapon well below 1.0 speed to reach 1.0 speed on the Actual Firing Speed of our slowest specials, but it is true because of the 2.5 Special Delay.
I hope this helps, but if not just let me know and we shall discuss further.
AriasImmortal wrote:
so, because i'm too damn lazy to do math... will i hit the cap with crippling on a 2.4 speed carbine with +85 speed?
+85 Carbine Speed will cap ALL Carbineer Specials with a 2.67 weapon or faster......no math necessary, got it memorized
BTW, another +5 Carbine Speed, total +90, will move that weapon speed up to 4.0 
TAfirehawk wrote:
Nova asked me to write up a piece on the often discussed Speed/Damage topic.
The Actual Firing Speed calculation is:
[(100 - Player Mod) / 100] * Weapon Speed * Special Delay = Actual Speed
This equation works for all fighting professions. The Player Mod is from your Skill Sheet with bonuses up to +25 for attachments. A pure Master Carbineer get +60 and then you can add Master Marksman for +65 for a maximum of +85/+90 without any Bounty Hunter skills. The Weapon Speed comes directly from the Examine window of each weapon. The Special Delay is typically found in each profession's forum, which we have here of course, thanks to the Great Nova
For example, lets take an average Laser Carbine at 2.4 speed with 45-280 damage using BurstShot1 in the beginning stages of Carbineer, +35 Carbine Speed:
A) [(100 - 35) / 100] * 2.4 * 2.0 = 3.12 sec Actual Speed.
Now lets move up to Master Carbineer using CrippleShot with the same weapon:
B) [(100 - 60) / 100] * 2.4 * 2.5 = 2.40 sec Actual Speed.
Now throw in +20 attachments and we begin to see large improvements:
C) [(100 - 80) / 100] * 2.4 * 2.5 = 1.20 sec Actual Speed.
The progression to faster firing speed is not linear. This of course rewards the Master levels more but at the same time makes leveling more difficult. Also NOTE as of this writing all professions CAN NOT fire faster than once per second with any weapon using any special.
It is also important to discuss DPS, Damage Per Second:
The calculation is:
{[(Min Damage + Max Damage) / 2]* Special Damage Modifier} / Actual Firing Speed = DPS
The Min Damage and Max Damage are listed in the Examine window for each weapon with the the Weapon Speed number. The Special Damage Modifier should be listed with the Special Delay on each profession's forum. NOTE: careful attention must be paid to where the "Mysterious 1.5X" multiplier is added. As Carbineers we include the 1.5X into the Special Damage Modifier as Nova got the figures from ACTUAL in-game testing. But most other professions base the specials off the standard attack which is 1.5 * Weapon Damage.
Lets continue the above examples to calculate DPS.
A) {[(45 + 280) / 2]* 6.0} / 3.12 = 312.5 DPS
B) {[(45 + 280) / 2]* 7.5} /2.40 =507.8 DPS
C) {[(45 + 280) / 2]* 7.5} /1.20 =1015.6 DPS
As you can see, the Speed greatly affects the amount of damage you can expect to do on any given creature/person. Please remember there are other factors in the actual damage done; damage type of weapon, armor piercing of weapon, armor rating of target, resist % of target, to hit %, and your accuracy.
Comparison of Damage Slices vs. Speed Slices:
Lets continue on with the Laser Carbine above, that I listed with about a 30% speed slice. Now the actual data on this weapon will vary from server to server but for this math comparison it doesn't matter. It also does not matter if the Special Damage Modifier is used as it would just multiply each number by the same modifier. And the same goes for Actual Firing Speed (until the 1.0 Speed Cap is reached, but more on that later).
Unsliced Laser Carbine with 3.5 speed and 45 - 280 damage, which is [(45 + 280) / 2] / 3.5 = 46.4 DPS
1) 30% speed slice makes it 2.45 speed and 45 - 280 damage, which is 66.3 DPS
2) 30% damage slice makes it 3.5 speed and 58.5 - 364 damage, which is 60.4 DPS
From the data above, when the % of the slice is the same, Speed is a higher DPS than Damage. Powerups can also change what slice you want, but for the most part people don't keep their weapons powerup'd 100% of the time.
Now it is important to NOTE that when a player hits the 1.0 Speed Cap a speed slice will NOT improve the overall DPS.
Lets get into the 1.0 Speed Cap in more detail.
As of this writing all professions CAN NOT fire faster than once per second with any weapon using any special. For a Carbineer we don't have to worry about the Speed Cap until near or beyond Master, so lets look at capping our slowest specials with a Special Delay of 2.5
The calculation to find what weapon speed you hit the cap for is:
Actual Speed / [(100 - Player Mod) / 100] / Special Delay = Weapon Speed
Substitute Special Delay of 2.5 and Actual Speed for 1.0 - Cap Number as of this writing:
40 / (100 - Player Mod) = Weapon Speed to Cap CrippleShot/ScatterShot2/BurstShot2/WildShot2
For example:
I) Mid-level Carbineer with +40 Carbine Speed will need a 0.67 Weapon Speed to Cap
II) Master Carbineer with +60 Carbine Speed will need a 1.00 Weapon Speed to Cap
III) Master Carbineer and Master Marksman with +65 Carbine Speed will need a 1.14 Weapon Speed to Cap
IV) Master Carbineer and +10 Attachments with total +70 Carbine Speed will need a 1.33 Weapon Speed to Cap
V) Master Carbineer and +20 Attachments with total +80 Carbine Speed will need a 2.00 Weapon Speed to Cap
VI) Master Carbineer and Master Marksman and +25 Attachments with a total of +90 Carbine Speed will need a 4.00 Weapon Speed to Cap
Most Carbines are easy to find under 4.00 Weapon Speed so option VI) or lower will result in you firing EVERY Special once every second. You can also add in +Carbine Speed from Bounty Hunter for a +115 Carbine Speed without any Attachments, but as you can see above, going above +90 Carbine Speed has little effect.
Summary
Each character has different Skill Mods and Weapons so there is no single answer to "what is the best carbine?" But this information can be easily figured while at a Vendor sorting through stats on available Carbines. It is important to remember that a speed sliced weapon will out-damage an identical one sliced for damage, until you hit the 1.0 Speed Cap and then a damage slice is better.
great!
Hi, I need some help with these calculations.
I have105 speed from BH carbine 3,and when I try to do the math for my 3.6 speed laser carbine on crippling shot I keep getting negative numbers. My question is this: How fast can I shoot crippling at this speed, and how fast can I shoot when I get +10 more speed from BH carbine 4?
Actually anything above +95 Carbine Speed is a total waste because at that point you Speed Cap on a 8.0 weapon, which is slower than any Carbine out there.
A realistic number to achieve is +90 Carbine Speed since that caps at 4.0 Weapon Speed. This can be reached with Master Marksman, Master Carbineer, and +25 in SEA's. But personally the Skill Points used for Master Marksman are not worth it, +85 Carbine Speed caps at 2.6 which can be reached with Krayt Carbines.
BTW, hope to be posting the stats of my soon to be made Elite, Laser, EE3, Enhanced E11, and DH17 Short Krayt Carbines to go along with the 7 I already have 
Dragoon1500 wrote:
You people are losing the point of carbineer, it is not a duelest type proff (though it can be used this way), it also has some of the best specials available, carbineer is a support proff. The amount of stat effects it can perform is staggering. Though lacking in the defense mod area, it really doesn't need more defense because your not supposed to let peeps get near you or hit you. Carbineer is a good proff, IF used effectively in groups.
I agree though, it needs some improvements.
In the area of speed if they can change it from +5 to +10 it will be a large bonus, same with accuracy while moving, because I have a real hard time hitting in pvp.
A master technique is in order too, I suggest an area flame/dizzy attack with the same modifiers as cripple shot. Scatter shot 3 would also be nice, and change suppresion fire2 to an area attack.
The last thing is a new weapon, not stun though, because that does not solve anything, I would personally enjoy a blast carbine with some lagtacious effects =)
In the end, carbineers are quite underated, but are quite powerful if used properly. Have a good day =)
And how in the world does this relate to the topic of THIS thread......