Carbineer Archive
Thread: Carbineer is not a Profession.........
hows this, we get skill pts to put into a certain kind of weapon, and our profession comes from that, making it much easier to have a merchant/carbineer/ch meaning u get taming pts whenever u lvl and there is no need for scout, all sucessful games have been based on this system
lvl up, get skill pts, place skill pts, repeat, that way there is a variety of what u can be, u arent pressed to be any one thing because u already jave a prerequesit for it, ya know what i mean, play shadowbane and u'll understand
Now...this is just my opinion but, wouldn't this entire thread be better used (or brought up) in the General Forum??? Especially given the ideas for Professions contained in it??
Gan-ja Blacklighter
Novice Marksman, Novice Medic
Shadowfire
Kaffis wrote:
SouthernShark, the game you're playing is one of semantics, mostly. This is a *skill* based system -- the skills are just organized into "professions" for ease of seeing the prerequisites and the like. Nobody's actually saying that Carbineer is a job -- it's just one skillset that you use to perform a combatant's job (usually that of a mercenary or a soldier if you're into factional stuff).
I must disagree. A soldier is not a carbineer. Let's use our own military as an example. Every soldier is trained with the assault rifle, whether they fight in infantry, or drive a truck, or end up on a ship. It'sa basic skill. But there is much more to being a soldier than say being an assault rifle-ler, even if you stayed as an enlisted man in infantry. My point is thus, a soldier would be a profession. Within that profession you could learn many different skills such as first aid (basic), carbines, heavy weapons, etc.......... As it stands now, the game defines you in avery archaic sort of way, not as a soldier, but rather as the weapon which you use (which isn't really very accurate).It reminds me once of a book I read that was written by a Navy SEALwho was in Vietnam. This guy specialized in using the shotgunin close combat (and was very effective). But when askedifa shotgun would be his choice of gear to take into combat, heresponded by saying "No,if I could haveanything, it would be a radio." The obvious point is that there is a lot more to be being a soldier than using a gun, even if you arein the assault profession.
Now I see what you are getting at, and that is that there are enough points left over after mastering say the carbine to "be a solidier." Well that may be in some cases, but in many cases in the game it isn't true. It's not really true even in this example, since you are still prevented from learning many of the basics of being a real mercenary (such as some scouting skills, some medic skills, some heavy weapons, etc.......).
You've acknowledged that Bounty Hunter, for instance, is not a profession. It's a combat skill tree, where the only BH job tree is largely left ignored. After all, people aren't becoming Bounty Hunters to be bounty hunters, they are doing it to get the Eye Shot or the LLC. Bounty Hunter's somehow get access to special weapons and skills denied even hard core, pure combat classes. That really doesn't make any sense. Apparently a bounty hunter can get more powerful weapons than say Imperial Commandos......... ? ? ?
I would argue the same holds true for Smuggler as well. The problem with this class is that it has the wrong name, perhaps. As it has nothing to do with smuggling. Spice/Slice/and Pistol guy might be more appropriate. But again it's gimped by it's prerequisites. There is no reason for a slicer/spice manufactuer to have to use a pistol a lot to advance in their profession. That just doesn't make sense. It's another example of how the class is defined by it's skills rather than by it's job. Why not have smuggler as a job, which gives access to a wide array of skills?
I'm not advocating that they get rid of skill points. Hey I agree a soldier shouldn't be able to specialize in every weapon, just as a smuggler shouldn't. But smugglers should be able to specialize in a variety of weapons which the smuggler chooses, rather than the skill tree imposing upon them.
That's just my thoughts on this. At this stage in the game though, I can't see such major changes being made............ More than likely this sort of skill/job tree thing is what will stay in the game.
SouthernShark wrote:
<various trimming to shorten the quoting>
I must disagree. A soldier is not a carbineer. Let's use our own military as an example. Every soldier is trained with the assault rifle, whether they fight in infantry, or drive a truck, or end up on a ship. It'sa basic skill. But there is much more to being a soldier than say being an assault rifle-ler, even if you stayed as an enlisted man in infantry. My point is thus, a soldier would be a profession. Within that profession you could learn many different skills such as first aid (basic), carbines, heavy weapons, etc.......... As it stands now, the game defines you in avery archaic sort of way, not as a soldier, but rather as the weapon which you use (which isn't really very accurate).It reminds me once of a book I read that was written by a Navy SEALwho was in Vietnam. This guy specialized in using the shotgunin close combat (and was very effective). But when askedifa shotgun would be his choice of gear to take into combat, heresponded by saying "No,if I could haveanything, it would be a radio." The obvious point is that there is a lot more to be being a soldier than using a gun, even if you arein the assault profession.
You've acknowledged that Bounty Hunter, for instance, is not a profession. It's a combat skill tree, where the only BH job tree is largely left ignored. After all, people aren't becoming Bounty Hunters to be bounty hunters, they are doing it to get the Eye Shot or the LLC. Bounty Hunter's somehow get access to special weapons and skills denied even hard core, pure combat classes. That really doesn't make any sense. Apparently a bounty hunter can get more powerful weapons than say Imperial Commandos......... ? ? ?
I would argue the same holds true for Smuggler as well. The problem with this class is that it has the wrong name, perhaps. As it has nothing to do with smuggling. Spice/Slice/and Pistol guy might be more appropriate. But again it's gimped by it's prerequisites. There is no reason for a slicer/spice manufactuer to have to use a pistol a lot to advance in their profession. That just doesn't make sense. It's another example of how the class is defined by it's skills rather than by it's job. Why not have smuggler as a job, which gives access to a wide array of skills?
I'm not advocating that they get rid of skill points. Hey I agree a soldier shouldn't be able to specialize in every weapon, just as a smuggler shouldn't. But smugglers should be able to specialize in a variety of weapons which the smuggler chooses, rather than the skill tree imposing upon them.
Ok. On the first issue -- you're coming closer to my point, but still missing it by a bit. Carbineer isn't intended to be a job. It's intended to be part of a job that you define yourself. You can be, for example, a squad leader (which I think we can agree is a specialty soldier as far as his job goes, right?) -- but one of his tools, since he's a kind of soldier, will be a weapon. You, however, get to pick the weapon, by choosing which one to invest skill points in. This is how it should be.
Now, we get to smugglers (who yeah, I'm basically saying are either misnamed or focus on parts of the underworld life which aren't exclusive to smuggling, since the game mechanics don't support actual smuggling).Most outlaws and shady types will favor pistols -- they're easily concealable. That's why this particular "job" profession has pistol prereqs and pistol-only moves.
Notice I said I thought there ought to be more actual professions to fill out more combat specific "jobs" -- basically varieties of soldier, if you will. Shock troopers, artillerymen (although arguably you could consider Commandos artillery of a sort), cavalrymen, armored cavalry, etc. Most of these combat-related "job professions" should be similar to smuggler -- not be only combat, but provide a little in the way of flavorful combat moves (and maybe small bonuses) while mostly featuring non-combat skills that would go along with the job. Smugglers, however misnamed -- so we'll call 'em criminals for now -- getspecializeddirty fighting like low blow to complement their weapons skills elsewhere, while being mostly into making illegal modifications to weapons and manufacturing illegal chemicals and double-crossing for profit or personal gain. This is my template for a good "jobprofession". Now, since it's criminal and we've already ascertained that most criminals won't be trying to conceal a T21 under their jacket, the few skill boxes devoted to combat only work with pistols (but perhaps could work with unarmed, as well in this case); but the majority of the "job professions" wouldn't have to be that restrictive. Shock troopers (think storm troopers or rebel grunts ala Leia's guards on the Tantive IV) probably wouldn't be using pistols, for instance, but could easily use their training in conjunction with rifles or carbines.
The reason I think that keeping these "job professions" separate from the basic weapon skills, rather than (as it seems you favor) giving them all their combat stuff in the job profession, is that this way it leaves room for the non-combat and non-weapon related skills and bonuses. What would criminal (or smuggler) be if they just had pistol moves? A pistoleer, called a different name. How would a weapon and job linked system describe the different character types of Jabba the Hutt and Han Solo? Both are criminals (or we'll assume that Jabba'd fit into the current smuggler profession with his spice specialties and the underworld line)? Both would most certainly be maxxed characters -- only Han is a master pistoleer/partial smuggler (err, criminal), while a crime lord spice racketeer like Jabba would be a masterful smuggler (criminal) without any further training in pistoleer. While I know it's kind of silly to try to fit actual movie characters strictly into these classes, especially the heroes, who we see do all kinds of things skillfully, I'm just using it as a quick way to reference different character concepts.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, your Navy SEAL example guy -- sure he's trained in basic on more than just the shotgun -- by being a novice marksman, I'm certed in a rifle, too, even though I've never equipped one. And heck, I've got pistol 1 and 2 in the marksman tree from when I was playing around to decide between that and carbine, and it's just so dang cheap to keep them that I haven't bothered to give them up yet. But that SEAL got extensive training in just that shotgun -- he mastered the shotgun "profession". Now, he's got a heap of other SEAL training to go along with it -- and as he points out, some of that is the most useful in combat. But does "radio use" and "amphibious deployment and recovery" belong in the shotgun profession? Heck no. And are there different kinds of SEALs who all know "radio use" and "amphibious deployment/recovery", but haven't touched a shotgun since they were taught how to hold one in Basic? Heck yes. Do they use the same tactics when they fire? I doubt it -- so why would they get the same "special moves" when it came to firing the gun? But they would, if they learned their combat moves in the SEAL profession and just picked which gun they wanted to use it with.
Anyways, I hope that made my stance more clear.
Actually, I think we are farther from understanding each other. There is no way that Han was a Master Pistoleer/Smuggler. For one thing he used carbines in most of the movies more often than pistols....... Which in itself leads credibility to my concept of skills being alloted to the job, rather than vice-versa. There is no way he was a MASTER PISTOLEER. Jabba the Hutt, well I really have no idea what he was except for a smart thing that was into crime. But he certainly wasn't a smuggler. He might have ruled smugglers, but smuggle himself? Not likely.
To confound matters, there ARE professions in the game. But then they also have weapon skills as professions. This just isn't right.
I have NEVER suggested, by t
Actually, I think we are farther from understanding each other. There is no way that Han was a Master Pistoleer/Smuggler. For one thing he used carbines in most of the movies more often than pistols....... Which in itself leads credibility to my concept of skills being alloted to the job, rather than vice-versa. There is no way he was a MASTER PISTOLEER. Jabba the Hutt, well I really have no idea what he was except for a smart thing that was into crime. But he certainly wasn't a smuggler. He might have ruled smugglers, but smuggle himself? Not likely.
To confound matters, there ARE professions in the game. But then they also have weapon skills as professions. This just isn't right.
I have NEVER suggested, by the way, getting rid of non-combat skills from professions. In fact what I have suggested is just the opposite. Have REAL professions instead of these shallow misconceptions which we have now. Make Bounty Hunter a real profession, alot it certain weapons, certain tracking skills, certain computer skill abilities, etc........
Make Smuggler a real profession, alot certain weapon skills etc........ Sure a smuggler might be more likely to use a pistol, but then again why? Did you ever see anyone concerned about other people seeing that they were armed in the game?
Actually, I think we are farther from understanding each other. There is no way that Han was a Master Pistoleer/Smuggler. For one thing he used carbines in most of the movies more often than pistols....... Which in itself leads credibility to my concept of skills being alloted to the job, rather than vice-versa. There is no way he was a MASTER PISTOLEER. Jabba the Hutt, well I really have no idea what he was except for a smart thing that was into crime. But he certainly wasn't a smuggler. He might have ruled smugglers, but smuggle himself? Not likely.
To confound matters, there ARE professions in the game. But then they also have weapon skills as professions. This just isn't right.
I have NEVER suggested, by the way, getting rid of non-combat skills from professions. In fact what I have suggested is just the opposite. Have REAL professions instead of these shallow misconceptions which we have now. Make Bounty Hunter a real profession, alot it certain weapons, certain tracking skills, certain computer skill abilities, etc........
Make Smuggler a real profession, alot certain weapon skills etc........ Sure a smuggler might be more likely to use a pistol, but then again why? Did you ever see anyone concerned about other people seeing that they were armed in the game? Also a smuggler might use a lot of different weapons. It wouldn't be limited to just pistols. There are also knives, unarmed combat, stun batons, carbines, and many other weapons. The current system is the one which penalizes a smuggler if they don't max out with the pistol. My idea would let the smuggler chose from an a
I have no idea how the above got posted so many times. I never even hit enter............. BIZARRE.
THE SOE FORUMS ARE HAUNTED!!!!!!
Am I crazy, or are there dozens of professions (or "specialties"), past and present, and especially in the military, that are defined by the equipment they use:
Archer
Grenadier
Rifleman (e.g. Marine Rifleman)
Back-hoe operator
Truck Driver
Helicopter Pilot
Anesthesiologist (holy cow, I spelled this right on the first try)
Painter
And who only specializes in Carbines. I thought one of the main benefitsof specializing in one weapon type was to free you up for other skills.
in AO once you got your base skills up to your liking you could pretty much spend the points from each level on whatever you wanted(and there was lots of different things)
it was set up so no 2 people of the same level/profession(soldire,doc,etc..) would have the exact same skills. like it is in SOE basically.
at lvl 83 atrox i could weid a gun that most lvl 150's were just barley getting to use cuz i concentrated all my skills.
you get where im getting at?
if not oh well.