Carbineer Archive
Thread: Marksman Issues
A BH only carbine makes just as much sense as a carbineer only carbine, isnt it the same argument?
They have a BH only pistol, I dont see too much complaint from pistoleers.
You only need be upset if the BH only carbine were far superior to that of any carbineers.
I like the originaly posters ideas. Bounty hunters are one of the most popular professions, but there are hardley any masters, because everyone is a BH just for accuracy/speed mods, which double with their own profession(these tend to be pistoleers, also carbineers as well).
It simply creates a situation where you shoot at 1.0, even with specials. It kinda negates the point of having a slower butmore damaging rifle, or carbine, or faster pistols, when we all end up shooting at the same speed(if we all were Bounty hunters, which almost is true).
That is actually a good point. There is nothing wrong with the speed caps if they adjust them per weapon, but it's simply a quick, incomplete fix for the primary issue (which is the way that the devs made speed modifiers work). I don't mind a speed cap if they keep Spraysticks out of the equation, but nevertheless I'd like to see speed be based more on one's weapon then on one's speed modifier. If my Laser Rifle's speed is 6.6 and my T21 is 9.9 then regardless of my speed modifier I should be firing the Laser Rifle at least a little bit faster then the T21. Speed caps are fine, just not the be-all end-all answer to the speed problem.
I meant to post this yesterday actually, but unfortunantly I got a bit distracted at work. Better late then never I suppose, lol. Whatcha’ think?
This will be my last big post before I compile all the feedback I’ve gotten and start a new thread on each board with the complete range of input I’ve received from all of you. Once approved by the masses I’ll submit it to the SWG Discussion board and pray that it doesn’t get buried in 3 minutes.
Pistoleer Dual Wielding
A pretty simple proposal that has been floating around and even submitted to the devs via correspondent, giving the ability for master Pistoleers to wield two pistols would bring some much needed attractiveness to mastering the profession and a sense of accomplishment to those that gain it. I have two specific ideas on how to implement this.
1) Give a certification at master status for a new type of pistol that has much lower damage then any of the Pistoleer’s other guns, but is the only pistol capable of being dual wielded. Weaponsmiths could customize this specific gun in the crafting process to change its damage type so that it would be more diverse. The viable damage types should be limited to types that make sense for the weapon, so you aren’t spraying acid or lightening with a Laser Pistol, for instance. The amount of different damage types is pretty much up to whatever seems sensible to the devs, and whatever they happen to name the weapon. This weapon’s overall damage should be 40% lower then the most damaging pistol currently implemented to essentially make duel wielding the guns 20% more effective overall then the strongest pistol (each pistol does 60% of the damage, equaling 120% effectiveness while holding both pistols). Accuracy modifiers on these weapons should slightly be lower then that of regular pistols to compensate for their coolness and power.
Or
2) Make duel wielding a passive skill gained at master status that allows any weapon to be duel wielded, but subtracts 40% from the overall damage done per shot with each weapon while duel wielding. Again, this makes dual wielding pistols 20% more effective overall then a solo gun. A small negative to-hit modifier should be applied when dual wielding to compensate for this ability.
Carbine Shield Attachments
I haven’t seen this anywhere on the boards, but I thought it might be a cool option for the Carbineers. In a nutshell, this ability would allow carbines to be attached with different sizes and shapes of metal shields to provide additional to-hit defenses and possibly some damage absorption while assaulting heavily fortified areas. It’s hard to explain exactly, but visualize a mounted machine gun with metal plates around it to protect the gunner from head-on attacks. Basically it’s like that, but obviously with the smaller carbine guns and smaller plates. Shield fitted guns should provide a very noticeable boost to one’s defense and possibly a bunch of new abilities that allow grouped Carbineers to help block each other from incoming shots at the cost of accuracy and movement speed (something small, like a 5-10% decrease in movement speed). Much like the previous proposal, this would help bring some eye candy and a sense of identity for the carbine users. My guide to implementing this is as follows:
1) Plant several certifications along the Carbineer tree that allows them to use certain shield attachments to their guns. In order to use a shield-fitted carbine effectively (damage-wise and defense-wise) they must have both the weapon certification and the shield certification of that particular gun. More advanced shields would provide more eye candy and heavier defenses. The type of shield on a gun would show up in the weapon’s examine window, much like a powerup.
2) The next step can be done in one of two ways, actually. This is simply the way that a carbine is fitted with a shield.
a) Provide a Weaponsmith with the option to attach shield components (made by an Armorsmith most likely) to carbines during the crafting process.
b) Allow Armorsmiths to craft the shields, and attach the shields as carbine-only powerups that expire after the gun or the person wielding the gun has taken 100 hits.
Rifleman Ghuile Suits
Rifleman have been asking for this for awhile, so lets give them some loving! For those that don’t know what a Ghuile suit is, just think of a guy wearing a bush or laying under a leaf-covered blanket to hide himself. Basically it’s a form of visual stealth.
There is a number of ways that this could be done, but the result should be something that gives the Riflemen that want to be snipers a way to take targets by surprise more often. If my previous ‘Radar Stealth when Covered’ proposal is passed then this could fit in nicely with it. Basically the ghuile suit could be made by a tailor, ranger, or a combination of the two and be sold to Riflemen with the required certification (given at master status or Concealment IV). For balance reasons and as a way to keep these suits in demand, they can work like tents (one time use per suit) and only when the person is in the Covered state. The ghuile suit would deploy, a nice little bush would cover up the person, and anybody that tried to target them would get a low-level creature lair as their target until the ghuile effect is removed. All target info would look like a lair, including the examine window and HAM bar (which would take the highest HAM pool of the person and use it as the displayed bar). To balance this out a bit, any movement and/or combat would immediately get rid of the ghuile effect. If radar stealth isn’t implemented for whatever reason, then a Rifleman in ghuile-mode would be turned into a yellow square on everyone’s radar to further convince wandering travelers.
This will be my last big post before I compile all the feedback I’ve gotten and start a new thread on each board with the complete range of input I’ve received from all of you. Once approved by the masses I’ll submit it to the SWG Discussion board and pray that it doesn’t get buried in 3 minutes.
Pistoleer Dual Wielding
A pretty simple proposal that has been floating around and even submitted to the devs via correspondent, giving the ability for master Pistoleers to wield two pistols would bring some much needed attractiveness to mastering the profession and a sense of accomplishment to those that gain it. I have two specific ideas on how to implement this.
1) Give a certification at master status for a new type of pistol that has much lower damage then any of the Pistoleer’s other guns, but is the only pistol capable of being dual wielded. Weaponsmiths could customize this specific gun in the crafting process to change its damage type so that it would be more diverse. The viable damage types should be limited to types that make sense for the weapon, so you aren’t spraying acid or lightening with a Laser Pistol, for instance. The amount of different damage types is pretty much up to whatever seems sensible to the devs, and whatever they happen to name the weapon. This weapon’s overall damage should be 40% lower then the most damaging pistol currently implemented to essentially make duel wielding the guns 20% more effective overall then the strongest pistol (each pistol does 60% of the damage, equaling 120% effectiveness while holding both pistols). Accuracy modifiers on these weapons should slightly be lower then that of regular pistols to compensate for their coolness and power.
Or
2) Make duel wielding a passive skill gained at master status that allows any weapon to be duel wielded, but subtracts 40% from the overall damage done per shot with each weapon while duel wielding. Again, this makes dual wielding pistols 20% more effective overall then a solo gun. A small negative to-hit modifier should be applied when dual wielding to compensate for this ability.
Carbine Shield Attachments
I haven’t seen this anywhere on the boards, but I thought it might be a cool option for the Carbineers. In a nutshell, this ability would allow carbines to be attached with different sizes and shapes of metal shields to provide additional to-hit defenses and possibly some damage absorption while assaulting heavily fortified areas. It’s hard to explain exactly, but visualize a mounted machine gun with metal plates around it to protect the gunner from head-on attacks. Basically it’s like that, but obviously with the smaller carbine guns and smaller plates. Shield fitted guns should provide a very noticeable boost to one’s defense and possibly a bunch of new abilities that allow grouped Carbineers to help block each other from incoming shots at the cost of accuracy and movement speed (something small, like a 5-10% decrease in movement speed). Much like the previous proposal, this would help bring some eye candy and a sense of identity for the carbine users. My guide to implementing this is as follows:
1) Plant several certifications along the Carbineer tree that allows them to use certain shield attachments to their guns. In order to use a shield-fitted carbine effectively (damage-wise and defense-wise) they must have both the weapon certification and the shield certification of that particular gun. More advanced shields would provide more eye candy and heavier defenses. The type of shield on a gun would show up in the weapon’s examine window, much like a powerup.
2) The next step can be done in one of two ways, actually. This is simply the way that a carbine is fitted with a shield.
a) Provide a Weaponsmith with the option to attach shield components (made by an Armorsmith most likely) to carbines during the crafting process.
b) Allow Armorsmiths to craft the shields, and attach the shields as carbine-only powerups that expire after the gun or the person wielding the gun has taken 100 hits.
Rifleman Ghuile Suits
Rifleman have been asking for this for awhile, so lets give them some loving! For those that don’t know what a Ghuile suit is, just think of a guy wearing a bush or laying under a leaf-covered blanket to hide himself. Basically it’s a form of visual stealth.
There is a number of ways that this could be done, but the result should be something that gives the Riflemen that want to be snipers a way to take targets by surprise more often. If my previous ‘Radar Stealth when Covered’ proposal is passed then this could fit in nicely with it. Basically the ghuile suit could be made by a tailor, ranger, or a combination of the two and be sold to Riflemen with the required certification (given at master status or Concealment IV). For balance reasons and as a way to keep these suits in demand, they can work like tents (one time use per suit) and only when the person is in the Covered state. The ghuile suit would deploy, a nice little bush would cover up the person, and anybody that tried to target them would get a low-level creature lair as their target until the ghuile effect is removed. All target info would look like a lair, including the examine window and HAM bar (which would take the highest HAM pool of the person and use it as the displayed bar). To balance this out a bit, any movement and/or combat would immediately get rid of the ghuile effect. If radar stealth isn’t implemented for whatever reason, then a Rifleman in ghuile-mode would be turned into a yellow square on everyone’s radar to further convince wandering travelers.
I meant to post this yesterday actually, but unfortunantly I got a bit distracted at work. Better late then never I suppose, lol. Whatcha’ think?
I'm really busy at work today, so I don't have time for a superlong reply ... but interesting ideas definitely.
I think the Ghuile Suits idea is probably the most interesting of the three, although I could definitely see some balance issues there. I actually think the suits end up working in the reverse of how they're intended to be used if they are implemented in the way you suggest ... they'll end up being an uber version of Feign Death. As a Rifleman I'd use /mindshot2, /peace and then put on my suit. Assuming that the lair looks like a normal lair from that planet and there is no way to tell that it's fake via examine or looking at the HAM of the lair, then the player won't be found and the target bleeds to death. The same would happen in PvE unless the creatures knew that the "lair" was really a player.
The basic way to prevent that would be to prevent you from putting on the suit within 60 seconds of combat. You could still put on the suit BEFORE combat, but not use it as a way to hide while a DoT kills the enemy. I'd also let the suit protect you for a certain number of seconds after initiating combat, so the sniper has an advantage, but give the player a delay before he can move again so he's immobile for a few seconds (just like with your previous radar example).
The dual wielding idea is fine ... of your two ideas, the better one is to let the Pistoleer use any two pistols but have damaged reduced so it's 20% more than normal. Everyone in the Pistoleer forum agrees that dual wielding should be a high level skill ... perhaps you could get a lower penalty for dual wielding as you go up the tree. I'm not sure 20% is the right number, but that is nitpicking.
I think the carbine shields idea is creative but probably won't be something the Carbineers love. Let's face it, dual wielding is pretty cool and the Ghuile Suit sounds sweet ... a big metal shield just isn't as neat in comparison. They deserve something that is extremely cool too, although your idea is as good as any I could come up with. 
RaskasBW wrote:
@Vindicar
Carbine Shield Attachments
I haven’t seen this anywhere on the boards, but I thought it might be a cool option for the Carbineers. In a nutshell, this ability would allow carbines to be attached with different sizes and shapes of metal shields to provide additional to-hit defenses and possibly some damage absorption while assaulting heavily fortified areas. It’s hard to explain exactly, but visualize a mounted machine gun with metal plates around it to protect the gunner from head-on attacks. Basically it’s like that, but obviously with the smaller carbine guns and smaller plates. Shield fitted guns should provide a very noticeable boost to one’s defense and possibly a bunch of new abilities that allow grouped Carbineers to help block each other from incoming shots at the cost of accuracy and movement speed (something small, like a 5-10% decrease in movement speed). Much like the previous proposal, this would help bring some eye candy and a sense of identity for the carbine users. My guide to implementing this is as follows:
1) Plant several certifications along the Carbineer tree that allows them to use certain shield attachments to their guns. In order to use a shield-fitted carbine effectively (damage-wise and defense-wise) they must have both the weapon certification and the shield certification of that particular gun. More advanced shields would provide more eye candy and heavier defenses. The type of shield on a gun would show up in the weapon’s examine window, much like a powerup.
2) The next step can be done in one of two ways, actually. This is simply the way that a carbine is fitted with a shield.
a) Provide a Weaponsmith with the option to attach shield components (made by an Armorsmith most likely) to carbines during the crafting process.
b) Allow Armorsmiths to craft the shields, and attach the shields as carbine-only powerups that expire after the gun or the person wielding the gun has taken 100 hits.
i like a lot of your other suggestions in your previous posts...they're a good 'band-aid' solution that doesn't solve the root problem (umm...yeah, i'll keep this flame-free here. cheer on, devs!) but does buy the current system more time. since bh/pistoleer and bh/carbineer = speed-cap all the time, not allowing the stacking of speed mods goes a long ways towards altering the speed of weapons fire-rates. it should also be EASY to implement, as the LLC chain is already in-game, and all that would need to be done is, essentially, a copy/paste find/remove of the LLC tree for the pistol and carbine. and, the pistoleers tend to HATE the fact that bh's have a unique pistol. more bounty-only weapons that are specific to their profession (dart-throwers, micro-concussion grenade launchers, wrist-flame throwers, etc.) would of course be better. but i think we all know how likely that would be any time soon, again, due to the time-factor.
and now then, for the 'however' ....i do NOT tend to like the 'shield attachment' idea for carbines. just give the profession more skill mods in place of the certs. we have the fewest of all the 'elite' combat professions as it is (roughly speaking. however, i would GLADLY trade the carbineers for any of the others, hehe). also..mking those actually somewhat NOTICEABLE would be nice.
a change for the shield enhancement might be a weapon (think bayonet) that can be attached at the end of the carbine, and when counterattack firest (hah! laugh it up guys, 'cuz we all know how often that happens) then we COUNTERATTACK. ya know, we hit them too? or instead? even if its' limited to melee range (give us the 10m range same as the melee'rs will be getting at some point in the next 5-10 years). umm....lost my train of thought. yeah. ok
Give a certification at master status for a new type of pistol that has much lower damage then any of the Pistoleer’s other guns, but is the only pistol capable of being dual wielded.
Why should it be less powerfull exactly ? Isn't it supposed to be an upgrade ? You want us to have another useless skill ? no thanx. Exactly same answer for the 40% dmg reduction thing.
You can make us hit for 3 times what we are already able to, we're still underpowered because this statement :
One of the biggest gripes on the boards is that pistols are the most accurate (and powerful) weapons in the game from just about any range. Several correspondent logs have been shown to the public that support this statement.
is just false. No way pistols are more accurate and more powerfull than other weapons.
I didn't read all of the above but will do, I just wanted to react to those 2 things. Of course dual wielding at mastery would broke any balance effort for the rest of the tree but what is proposed is unacceptable. Dual Wielding should be exactly what its name is and other Carbineer / Rifleman Mastery should get something to compete with.
The problem is I fail to see any reason for a Novice Rifleman 2 2 2 2 to have the smallest chance to survive a Master Pistoleer as I can't imagine a Novice Pistoleer compete a Master Rifleman. Mastery should mean something and Dual Wield is what we should have.
Rifleman can then get their free kill with "no radar presence" and Carbineer can have whatever they want as long as it is in line with what they are supposed to be.
A timer to prevent shooting and reapplying the ghuile would actually be unnecessary if my earlier proposed cover changes went into effect since only Surprise Shot and auto-fire would be usable from the Covered state, and since the the Rifleman would be auto-targetted (applying ghuile shouldn't disable auto-targetting), and since cover would be broken with Surprise Shot, and since the auto-target would automatically put the Rifleman into combat mode (ghuile shouldn't be deployable during combat). However, if those changes didn't go into effect then I agree, there should be some type of timer to prevent insta-applying ghuile.
@Dyriel
Currently I am a 2 0 2 1 Rifleman and a novice Pistoleer, and I can safely say that I hit far too often with my pistol at max range with specials then I should be. I'm easily more accurate with my pistol at 64 meters spamming Body Shot II then with my rifle spamming Head Shot II, especially on the run at that distance. I do notice that without specials I am very inaccurate with my pistols for some reason (hence the reduction or abolishment of the 50% accuracy boost while using pistols). I could make a log if you request it. Without specials though, I agree, pistols are perfectly in line with rifles and carbines.
Please stop generalizing special attack accuracy. Not all specials are created equal!
The roll/kipup/dive shot line and the Bodyshot line in particular extremely accurate (+50 accuracy). I believe double tap, stopping shot, and fan shot are similar.
The following pistol specials are nowhere nearly as accurate... I'm not even sure if they have any bonus to accuracy:
- panic shot
- last ditch assault
- eye shot
- torso shot
FYI if you are a pure pistoleer or a purebounty hunter(i.e. not a expert bounty hunter pistoleer with overwhelming accuracy bonuses), this makes quite a difference.
I'm pretty sure that the out-of-date-super-cr@ppy"official" strategy guide said that all the specials had a 50% increase in accuracy to all specials for every weapon. Guess I was wrong ... 
FYI if you are a pure pistoleer or a purebounty hunter(i.e. not a expert bounty hunter pistoleer with overwhelming accuracy bonuses), this makes quite a difference.
Which furthers my point that we should seperate Bounty Hunter bonuses from elite marksman bonuses. I should have said something similar to that in my first post, but oh well.
Hmm I to am not without ideas,
Dablers: As a dabler myself (I'm a BH/Pistoleer), I can tell you a real quick way to stop dabling, Make the master skills worth getting. As it stands i can't think of one elite combatprofession that is worth the points to get master in. Wait, yes their is one, CH so you can get the best creatures (and its the most common mastered elite imagine that). The idea of making the BH bonuses not stack with the the other elites just hurts the BH's, who would soon find them selves a jack of all trades master of none, and then the BH will be having this conversation about the marksman elites. Currently in Rifle, carbine, and pistol, at least one ortwo of our trees are worthless. This is the real thing creating dablers, I meanwho wants to waste xp and sp on something the Dev's may or may not fix in the next patch. Then to make the problems worse, the masters skillsare rarely worth the one SP they cost. Pistoleers get an AOE attack that hurts their opponents weapons, carbineers don't even get a special move, and rifleman get strafeshot 2, which is a good AOE,but is it worth spending all the points on conceal and counter sniping? My opion is that people who are going after dablers, are going after the symptons and not the cause, fix the professions and you'll watch dablers disapear.
Accuracy: I agree that something needs to be done about the accuracy thing, nerfing pistoleers is not going to help. Decreasing the bonuses to defensewhile moving would be a good first step, and increasing the bonus defence and accuracywhile usingstances other than standing would make a big diffrenece as well. Then flaten out the bonuses for specials across all of the rifleman elite classes.With these simple changes (when balanced against eachother instead of going off of the deep end with one or the other) I think at least most of the accuracyproblems would be solved.
Kiting: To comment on the earlier idea of making rifleman better able to shoot on the move at the penalty of speed. If i'm going only 10% faster it will take me 10 times the amount of time it would normally take me to cover the distance between us. for example, If I and a rifleman were 64m apart, we would have to run 640 meters before i was caught up to him, thats about 1.5 mins, pretty silly huh? What I do suggest is that since pistollers need to be able to fight effectively at a distance to avoid kiting, rifleman should be better able to fight at close ranges. take out the 2.5 damage modifier, and reduce their point blank penalties.
Just my thoughts and I'm probably wrong. 