Carbineer Archive
Thread: carbineer info requested
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Lurax
Thu Feb 12, 2004 3:45 pm
#1
Hey, I'm a weaponsmith who relies on intimate knowledge of each profession in order to provide the best possible weapons for each target market. I am not a carbineer and never have been, so I rely on others for my info 
-Previously carbine making has typically revolved around fast DH17s with low mind HAM costs for carbineer dabblers using charge shot, now that this isn't viable what would a typical carbine build be like?
-What type of speed is required on a carbine for a carbineer to hit the speed cap with the most commonly used specials (I assume cripple shot?).
-How important is HAM experimentation? Most of my customer base claims they don't care because they're always buffed, then realize they want lower mind costs. Would you rather have 900 condition 24 mind cost or 1100 condition 20 mind cost? I won't even suggest range mods, heh
-This one's kinda direct, but um....what good is a carbineer nowadays? lol. Sorry to be blunt but on hunts it used to be handy to bring one along to pin a big target, but without charge shot what exactly are you most likely to use to benefit a group?
glidingpiglet
Thu Feb 12, 2004 4:49 pm
#2
the only good carbine is the laser carbine..
honestly the rest just suck.. as a master carbineer.. even if the thing has 60% res to energy i still do more damage with the laser carbine then if the creature is vul to heat or acid .. this goes with or with out armor.
carbine specialskill you quick. (not that it in anyway compares to the pikes) so although ham cost are important.. i rarely fight unbuffed. and i use spec spreed out.
Damage and speed are far more important.
glidingpiglet
Thu Feb 12, 2004 4:52 pm
#3
sorry missed a few questions..
as a master carbineer i would rec pistol or rifle before this..
and as far as mind over condition.. go with the lower cost on mind.. hey if the wep breaks they can buy a new one.. keep them coming back..
i would take lower costs over condition as i usally buy a few and get them sliced up anyways.. so if it breaks i have another one..
try repairing something.. its kinda funny . i dont think youll get the use out of it for the extra points
Berrie Random
AK-
Thu Feb 12, 2004 6:17 pm
#4
Hard core carbineers will not care about ham or speed ie (master carb and or bh dabble). Everything to the hardcore player will need to be stocked for dmg. If you want to throw a scope on them for higher wound % its not that big of a deal but some like it.
Laser carbine - PvE you will want to get numbers like 75+ min 305+ max (stocked)
Elite carbine - PvP although you do not get the max dmg as high as the laser these are more effective for pvp since ranged damage mitation can make an uber laser carbine almost useless.
Theres a guy on our server who slices everything first and prices accordingly. The high dmg ones go for 100-500k and speed 12-30k
Best of luck
NippyBooBoo
Thu Feb 12, 2004 6:34 pm
#5
Totally disagree on the stement that Laser Carbine is the best. It isn't really especially after DAMAGE MITIGATION. Damage Mitigation always needs to be kept in mind when selecting weapons. I personally use the Short DH 17 most followed by the ee3 and dxr6. I always look at the HAM costs. So my persoanl preference is lower HAM all around.
pentjaksilat
Thu Feb 12, 2004 8:44 pm
#6
NippyBooBoo wrote:
Totally disagree on the stement that Laser Carbine is the best. It isn't really especially after DAMAGE MITIGATION. Damage Mitigation always needs to be kept in mind when selecting weapons. I personally use the Short DH 17 most followed by the ee3 and dxr6. I always look at the HAM costs. So my persoanl preference is lower HAM all around.
laser carbine is the best. period.
highest dps of any carbine. ap2 so this dps difference is even more drastic on any unarmed target, and against medium/heavy armor it's not even a comparison it's so drastic.
however...in PVP, there is the mitigation concern...which means ranged classes are going to drop your dps drastically, leaving elite/dh17short/dxr6 as your next best options...tho you need to bear in mind, a dh17 again an armored target is all of 'bout worthless...50%reduction as well as say..70%resist, compared to a laser carbine which will get a 25%increase in damage, then then 70%resist...even w/ classIII mitigation the laser carbine will drastically outdamage the dh17.
ee3 isn't a very good weapon, the only usefulness of it is the heat damage (hope i'm not confuzing it w/ the e11), which makes it nice against some targets...but w/ ar0 it's nearly worthless against any high-level targets, even if they have low heat resist...exception being heat vulnerable targets.
HAM cost is very important if you don't carry around food or get doc buffs...but when it gets down to it...you're always most effective by planning for the HAM cost, but relying on the damage ability.
whoever mentioned that speed isn't much of a concern...i very much disagree. more than any other ranged profession, speed is a concern. we get far less than pistoleers(quick pistols so they easily cap), riflemen (they're so near the speed cap that w/ some attachments they can cap a 8spd t21), BHs (we all know how much speed they get)...the only ones worse off are smugglers that don't have master pistoleer since lastditch is so incredibly slow...but they're not exactlya ranged combat profession, not specifically.
calling "hardcore carbineers" only those who dabble in carb/bh is pretty senseless, shouldn't have to rely on another combat profession to be effective in your own...it helps, yes...but being dependant on it? well i used to be bh/carb, dropped bh and picked up master carb because the skillpoints just don't justify kd fire/confusionshot/speed mods.
at 60speed you're pretty bad off w/ master carb, even using a 3.5spd laser carbine which isn't terribly slow (damage sliced) your crippleshot or scatterII is going to be quite slow, if you can invest in armor attachments/clothing attachments to hit 85spd, you effectively increase your dps to 266% of what a raw master (60spd) has...pretty scary huh?...and at 80spd you just 'bout double the dps.
guess the point here...laser carbine is by FAR the best for PVE except for rare cases (i.e. 100%energy resist nightsisters...use a dxr6/slugthrower for the acid damage, since they'll have light armor).
laser carbine is in most instances one of the best for PVP as well, around 50% of your targets will have ranged mitigationIII, but they'll also have armor...which makes dh17 a poor choice to me. elite's probably the best option because of modest dps, light piercing, and very low damage range...which yields high dps even after mitigation. dxr6 is quite nice as well...think it suffers a bit more thru mitigation than the elite...tho not sure, winging it here.
you'll sell more laser carbines than anything...but any decent carbineer's gonna have various other carbs ready to go when need-be, i'd suggest a modest stock of elite/drx6/dh17short as well...assuming any carbineers are left after this patch.
as far as the speed cap...lol, good luck, master carb (60spd) w/ 3.5spd carbine (nicely crafted damage sliced laser)...3.5sec/shot w/ crippleshot...don't have burst1 speed modifier handy, but novamarine has it stickied if you'd wish to find it for yourself...around 3sec/shot.
master carb w/ 2.5spd laser carbine (nicely crafted and 30%spd slice)...2.5sec/shot w/ crippleshot.
to be blunt...w/ 60spd mod, we fire crippleshot at exactly the weapon speed, so you will need a 1 SECOND carb to cap crippleshot unless you have attachments for speed...pathetic, no?
anywho...i'd say sacrificing some condition for mind is decent, mind drain in PVP is pretty nasty, especially w/ the 100thousand riflemen slinging ion rifles.
hope that helped...as depressing as it is for us carbineers. 
~pentjak
BMGundam
Thu Feb 12, 2004 10:03 pm
#7
Lasers are good for PvE, Elites/DXR6's are better suited for PvP than PvE. EE3's are useful if the target has medium armor some energy resists and vulnerable to heat but not much else.
Speed cap: With the master carbineer +60 carbine speed mod, I believe the carbine has to have a speed of 1.3 or 1.4s to hit the cap. If you have +100 I think you can get away with a 4.0s carbine and be able to hit the cap. Someone else who knows the speed formula would have to verify that though.
HAM costs over condition for the most part. If it's a krayt or something probably be best to ask the customer.
Don't underestimate range mods too much. A +52@40m ideal on an elite will allow both you and the target to be moving and still be in the positive with the accuracy thing on a target. You can hit with good accuracy from 20-55m too. Accuracy goes down quite a bit on a defense stacker, but at least your odds of hitting one are better are almost twice as high. Instead of 1/10 it'll be 1/5. Oh wait that's still not good.
What we're good for? Hmm... not much. maybe stun and blind but others can do that better.
Speed cap: With the master carbineer +60 carbine speed mod, I believe the carbine has to have a speed of 1.3 or 1.4s to hit the cap. If you have +100 I think you can get away with a 4.0s carbine and be able to hit the cap. Someone else who knows the speed formula would have to verify that though.
HAM costs over condition for the most part. If it's a krayt or something probably be best to ask the customer.
Don't underestimate range mods too much. A +52@40m ideal on an elite will allow both you and the target to be moving and still be in the positive with the accuracy thing on a target. You can hit with good accuracy from 20-55m too. Accuracy goes down quite a bit on a defense stacker, but at least your odds of hitting one are better are almost twice as high. Instead of 1/10 it'll be 1/5. Oh wait that's still not good.
What we're good for? Hmm... not much. maybe stun and blind but others can do that better.
AK-
Fri Feb 13, 2004 11:27 am
#8
"as far as the speed cap...lol, good luck, master carb (60spd) w/ 3.5spd carbine (nicely crafted damage sliced laser)...3.5sec/shot w/ crippleshot...don't have burst1 speed modifier handy, but novamarine has it stickied if you'd wish to find it for yourself...around 3sec/shot.
master carb w/ 2.5spd laser carbine (nicely crafted and 30%spd slice)...2.5sec/shot w/ crippleshot."
Again thats why I said hardcore carbineers. At bh carbs 4 + master carbs and skill tapes my carbine speed is +133. Any time you go over +100 you will spam specials at1 second. Sometimes I can even get 2 specials to fire within the same time stamp. Thats on a 4.1 speed laser carbine mind you.
"laser carbine is the best. period.
highest dps of any carbine. ap2 so this dps difference is even more drastic on any unarmed target, and against medium/heavy armor it's not even a comparison it's so drastic.
however...in PVP, there is the mitigation concern...which means ranged classes are going to drop your dps drastically, leaving elite/dh17short/dxr6 as your next best options...tho you need to bear in mind, a dh17 again an armored target is all of 'bout worthless...50%reduction as well as say..70%resist, compared to a laser carbine which will get a 25%increase in damage, then then 70%resist...even w/ classIII mitigation the laser carbine will drastically outdamage the dh17."
Basically you said what we already stated, PvP = laser PvE = elite
pentjaksilat
Fri Feb 13, 2004 3:27 pm
#10
AK- wrote:
Again thats why I said hardcore carbineers. At bh carbs 4 + master carbs and skill tapes my carbine speed is +133. Any time you go over +100 you will spam specials at1 second. Sometimes I can even get 2 specials to fire within the same time stamp. Thats on a 4.1 speed laser carbine mind you.
Basically you said what we already stated, PvP = laser PvE = elite
"hardcore carbineers" shouldn't mean you have to dabble in BH for speed...that's like saying "hardcore pistoleers" are only pistoleer+smugglers who dabble in dirty fighting for lastditch.
i will buy the thing 'bout attachments tho, a "hardcore carbineer" would be foolish not to bust his powergaming butt to get +25speed, but even w/ it, you can't use that 4.1carb to fire at cap w/out BH speed mods...which is why the speed cap isn't really obtainable for carbineers that want to maximize their dps (i.e. damage sliced carbine + speed cap + highest damage specials).
as far as "basically you said what we already stated", i don't agree...depending on your server's resource spawns for the elite/laser resources, and who you PVP against...i knowa guild w/ tons of melee fighters...you can bet if i'm fighting against them in PVP and i notice that only 25-35% of them are mitigating ranged damage, i'm going to be using a laser carbine. also...the elite carbines for so long on flurry were horrible due to resource spawns, so i'm sure other servers might be in the same boat, a quality laser will beat a low-end elite even w/ mitigation.
not trying to argue semantics here, but i think it would be unwise to say "PVP = elite" for the best choice of carbine...there are far too many factors that should be addressed by the person choosing which weapon to use. i think it would be wise to always think of the laser carbine AND the elite as an option for PVP, depending on the circumstances.
PVE's just an easy call b/c there's no variety, you know exactly what you're getting when you examine your target...'til they put in mitigation for NPCs and high-level creatures, but supposedly that's quite a ways off yet.
~pentjak
TrassNimode
Fri Feb 13, 2004 6:02 pm
#11
I believe what he meant by 'hardcore carbineer' was someone either A.) Strictly carbines (Carbineer+BH Carbs) or a hardcore gamer, who has the cash and/or the means to get some good speed tapes/attachments. But, I can't speak for him, it's only what I interprited it as.
Alright, let's talk about the Elite and the Laser for PvP. Remember that things work in multipliers. Slice's are %s of numbers, not numbers. Power ups are %s, not numbers. So you get a damage sliceand a power-upon a laser, and the max goes up a lot and the min barely goes up because it is already so low. On the Elite, you get a slice and and a power-up and both min and max go up a fair ammount. Let's see what happens when we compare the two...
[The stats on these weapons are the best I could find made by the best WSs on the Radiant server.]
*The AP calculations is assuming the other player has armor.*
Unstocked Elite: 107-188
Unstocked Laser: 42-276
Unstocked Elite after RDM3: 107-155
Unstocked Laserafter RDM3: 42-182
Unstocked Elite after AP*: 107-155
Unstocked Laser after AP*: 52-227.
55 less min damage for 72 more max damage... seems like a fair trade, although I know I don't want to hit those lows with my Cripple in PvP...
Unstocked Elite after +54 Tissues: 107-242
Unstocked Laser after +54 Tissues: 42-330
Unstocked Elite after + 54 tissues and 30% slice: 139-314
Unstocked Laser after + 54 tissues and 30% slice: 54-429
Unstocked Elite after +54 tissues, 30% damage slice, and +33%max/+16%min power-up: 161-418
Unstocked Laser after +54 tissues, 30% damage slice, and +33%max/+16%min power-up: 62-571
Unstocked Elite from above after 7.5x Cripple modifier: 724-3135
Unstocked Laser from above after 7.5x Cripple modifier: 465-4282
Alright, let's talk about the Elite and the Laser for PvP. Remember that things work in multipliers. Slice's are %s of numbers, not numbers. Power ups are %s, not numbers. So you get a damage sliceand a power-upon a laser, and the max goes up a lot and the min barely goes up because it is already so low. On the Elite, you get a slice and and a power-up and both min and max go up a fair ammount. Let's see what happens when we compare the two...
[The stats on these weapons are the best I could find made by the best WSs on the Radiant server.]
*The AP calculations is assuming the other player has armor.*
Unstocked Elite: 107-188
Unstocked Laser: 42-276
Unstocked Elite after RDM3: 107-155
Unstocked Laserafter RDM3: 42-182
Unstocked Elite after AP*: 107-155
Unstocked Laser after AP*: 52-227.
55 less min damage for 72 more max damage... seems like a fair trade, although I know I don't want to hit those lows with my Cripple in PvP...
Unstocked Elite after +54 Tissues: 107-242
Unstocked Laser after +54 Tissues: 42-330
Unstocked Elite after + 54 tissues and 30% slice: 139-314
Unstocked Laser after + 54 tissues and 30% slice: 54-429
Unstocked Elite after +54 tissues, 30% damage slice, and +33%max/+16%min power-up: 161-418
Unstocked Laser after +54 tissues, 30% damage slice, and +33%max/+16%min power-up: 62-571
Unstocked Elite from above after 7.5x Cripple modifier: 724-3135
Unstocked Laser from above after 7.5x Cripple modifier: 465-4282
Unstocked Elite from above after RDM3: 724-2170
Unstocked Laser from above after RDM3: 465-2755
Unstocked Elite from above after RDM3 and AP*: 724-2170
Unstocked Laser from above after RDM3 and AP*: 581-3443
143 less min and 1273 more max... hmm...
What about armor effectivness?
Unlayered armor: 52% base
Above Elite after armor % calculation: 347-1041
Above Laser after armor % calculation: 278-1652
69 less min, 611 more max...
Unlayered armor: 52% base
Above Elite after armor % calculation: 347-1041
Above Laser after armor % calculation: 278-1652
69 less min, 611 more max...
3x armor: 67% base
Above Elite after armor % calculation: 239-716
Above Laser after armor % calculation: 191-1136
48 less min, 420 more max... it looks like the Laser is in the lead... by far...
Now, these calculations were made using this order of calculations:
Special Modifier
Ranged Damage Mitigation
Armor Piercing/Protection
Armor % Effectiveness
I am not posative if that is the correct order that the calculations go. Any difference in these calculations could make drastic changes in the results.
Does anyone know the exact order of the combat calculations?
Above Elite after armor % calculation: 239-716
Above Laser after armor % calculation: 191-1136
48 less min, 420 more max... it looks like the Laser is in the lead... by far...
Now, these calculations were made using this order of calculations:
Special Modifier
Ranged Damage Mitigation
Armor Piercing/Protection
Armor % Effectiveness
I am not posative if that is the correct order that the calculations go. Any difference in these calculations could make drastic changes in the results.
Does anyone know the exact order of the combat calculations?
vexingthought
Fri Feb 13, 2004 8:02 pm
#12
1) Well it's pretty much bh/carbineers and die hard master carbineers at the moment.
2) As others have said a master carbineer gets 60 speed and ain't hitting the speed cap no matter what carbine he uses. On the other hand BH/carbineers can hit the speed cap easily with any special on any gun. So as I see it you have 2 types of customers:
vexingthought
Fri Feb 13, 2004 8:08 pm
#13
ugh double post and i didn't even finish
1) Well it's pretty much bh/carbineers and die hard master carbineers at the moment.
2) As others have said a master carbineer gets 60 speed and ain't hitting the speed cap no matter what carbine he uses. On the other hand BH/carbineers can hit the speed cap easily with any special on any gun. So as I see it you have 2 types of customers:
- BH/carbineers who want max damage and low ham
- Master carbineers who want the lowest speed possible with decent damage and low ham if possible
3) Kinda anwsered that as part of question 2 but to reiterate: lower ham is always nice but not at the cost of speed and damage because no matter how low you experiment ham it's still going to hit a carbineer hard.
4) A straight up carbineer is nothing but a damage dealer at the moment. We can apply the stun effect well but that's about it. So most carbineers will be looking to deal the most damage in the fastest way possible.
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