Business And Economy Archive

Seems that the general consensus among merchants is they have the exclusive right to every automated trade over 6k. I’m guessing this is mostly driven by a fear of competition or a fear that lifting price restrictions will destroy player vendors. I believe this to be wrong and in all actuality price caps on the bazaar my serve to hurt a majority of vendors, not protect them.

So here we go, arguments as to why the Bazaar price cap should be removed.

Argument 1:
In a macroeconomic view the vast majority of new goods come from crafters and are brought into the economy through player vendors. The total number of goods that get bought in a day is most likely quite large. In fact I would bet my exceptional pearl that if the merchant profession and the bazaar price cap were removed tomorrow, and every one had to sell through the bazaar there would be massive shortages. There just isn’t a way for enough goods to be put into the economy 25 sales at a time. So as long as the 25 item bazaar limit is maintained, merchants, vendors and malls are still the most efficient way to get crafted goods into the economy. The best example that supports this is the number of power up vendors that make a ton of money even though they compete directly with the bazaar.

Argument 2:
There is the problem of making money only stocking 25 crafted items at a time. While it might be a good stepping stone for crafters on their way to successful vendors, a bazaar with no price caps would be hyper competitive. (As long as there are player malls to meet most of the demand) One thing about the bazaar that you don’t currently get with vendors is an easy way for buyers and sellers to check prices globally. In a hyper competitive environment you have to make your money with small mark ups and high volume. But with the 25 item cap, volume isn’t option. That leaves you selling 25 items at a time on slim margins. So anyone trying to make money selling new items on a non price cap bazaar is bound to get sick of it quickly, quit or expand into higher volume vendors.

Argument 3:
As the argument goes—“Removing the price cap would allow everyone to sell goods at any price creating competition with vendors that will in turn destroy them.” The fallacy in this argument is it assumes that there is no economic activity in items over 6k except on vendors. This is by far not the case for this competition already exists. While removing the price caps will increase non vendor sales in items over 6k to some extent, it will only be by the amount of sales that the price cap currently discourages. The most dramatic affect will be that all this economic activity will now be visible, not hidden away in trade windows.

Argument 4:
As the argument goes— “People shouldn’t have the ability to sell items with out an investment in skill points.” This is an argument about what the merchant profession is. Is it the excusive right to all automated sales over 6k? Or is it the ability to have vendor’s stores, advertising and 6000 items up for sale at once. Merchant skills grant vendors items and advertising tools. Nothing in there has anything to do with price caps. This argument also begs the question “How is someone that only wants to sell 10 items a week supposed to sell goods?” Spend skill points to put up a vendor that no one will go to. That’s like saying if I want to sell my car for more then 6k I need to get a business license, put up a store front in a good location and higher a salesperson. With the price cap there are no in game tools for non merchants to conduct automated sales of goods. So is merchant a monopoly on all automated transactions or just the ability and tools to be a merchant and run a large high volume business?

Argument 5:
If it’s easier for customers to make money customers will have more money to spend. This is the connection I’m surprised is over looked so often. The reason most people don’t have merchant is they’re not interested in being a merchant. They’re combatant/looters only dealing in a few items at any one time. They don’t have access to factory goods in bulk and aren’t interested in running a business selling hundreds to thousands of items a week. If they wanted to sell hundreds or thousands of items a week they would be merchants, that’s what the profession is for. In general they just want to be able to sell loot and the occasional used item. For this class of person the price cap forces them to do one of two things. Spend a lot of time selling items by means other then the bazaar or delete a lot of sellable items that aren’t worth the trouble. In either case this just takes money out of their pockets in potential sales or time lost. Which in turn is less money to spend on other goods and less time playing, fighting and otherwise wearing out goods.


SYNOPSIS:
Removing price caps from the bazaar would have minimal effect on vendors as long as the 25 item limit remains. The 25 item limit ensures that vendors will still be the most efficient and effective means to get crafted items into the economy. Price cap removal will have the largest effect on combatant/looters, giving them limited economic tools that will make it easier to sell used items and loot, giving them more time play the game and spend their money

EDIT:
In honor of finally getting one stared some on this post I will add argument 6

Argument 6:
Price caps are just so pinko comiee and that went out of style in the 80’s

Message Edited by ObiQuixote on 01-20-2005 08:15 PM

I don’t have a problem with the trade forums, right now if you got something good and no merchant they’re the best game in town.

I do think that with a little bit of work the in game auction system could be made a lot better. No price cap, buyout price, ability to look into packs, no item or bid retractions and bids held in escrow until someone out bids you.

This would make some of the shadier aspects of auctions less shady and remove the need to chase everyone down in game. The trade forums would still be very useful for advertising auctions and conducting more complicated business arrangements.

It’s much easier to equate who’s who and who shouldn’t be bumping up the price on auctions in game. Nothing is sadder then catching a friend bidding on their own auction with an alt. aren’t friends after that.

Message Edited by ObiQuixote on 01-19-2005 09:00 PM

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ObiQuixote wrote:
I don’t have a problem with the trade forums, right now if you got something good and no merchant they’re the best game in town.

I do think that with a little bit of work the in game auction system could be made a lot better. No price cap, buyout price, ability to look into packs, no item or bid retractions and bids held in escrow until someone out bids you.

This would make some of the shadier aspects of auctions less shady and remove the need to chase everyone down in game. The trade forums would still be very useful for advertising auctions and conducting more complicated business arrangements.

It’s much easier to equate who’s who and who shouldn’t be bumping up the price on auctions in game. Nothing is sadder then catching a friend bidding on their own auction with an alt. aren’t friends after that.

Message Edited by ObiQuixote on 01-19-2005 09:00 PM

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QFE

Yep it's annoying to destroy all the nice loot. For making money i mostly loot space stuff and sell it to the chassis dealer.

I totally agree with ObiQuixote, please remove the cap.

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ObiQuixote wrote:

So here we go, arguments as to why the Bazaar price cap should be removed.

Argument 1:
In a macroeconomic view the vast majority of new goods come from crafters and are brought into the economy through player vendors. The total number of goods that get bought in a day is most likely quite large. In fact I would bet my exceptional pearl that if the merchant profession and the bazaar price cap were removed tomorrow, and every one had to sell through the bazaar there would be massive shortages. There just isn’t a way for enough goods to be put into the economy 25 sales at a time. So as long as the 25 item bazaar limit is maintained, merchants, vendors and malls are still the most efficient way to get crafted goods into the economy. The best example that supports this is the number of power up vendors that make a ton of money even though they compete directly with the bazaar.
I disagree. If there were only a few Artisans making these good, this would be true. However, there are hundreds if not thousands of Artisans who would be placing 25 items at a time - Which would lead to a glut of items on the Bazaar, and not vendors. Imagine this: Artisan places Factory, does a run of 1000 items. Leaves, plays at combat. Picks up 25 crates (Or sells in singles) as run is done, and places 25 items on Bazaar. Since he has eliminated the need for a Vendor, he saves overall on Maintenance - No planetary ad costs, no paying vendor support or house support. Now mulitply this by only 100 Artisans doing the same. Takes player only a few moments, so rinse and repeat daily. Are merchants the only ones who take a hit here?
Argument 2:
There is the problem of making money only stocking 25 crafted items at a time. While it might be a good stepping stone for crafters on their way to successful vendors, a bazaar with no price caps would be hyper competitive. (As long as there are player malls to meet most of the demand) One thing about the bazaar that you don’t currently get with vendors is an easy way for buyers and sellers to check prices globally. In a hyper competitive environment you have to make your money with small mark ups and high volume. But with the 25 item cap, volume isn’t option. That leaves you selling 25 items at a time on slim margins. So anyone trying to make money selling new items on a non price cap bazaar is bound to get sick of it quickly, quit or expand into higher volume vendors.
True at the beginning. However, players CAN check the Bazaar prices galaxy wide, and sort from lowest to highest price. Eventually, crafters seeing they can get the benefits of FREE Global advertizing place a run of 25 various items on the Bazaar at ridiculously low prices - With each item having in the description the WP to their shop, and their normal price (Which since they can now see everyone's bazaar price, they set at a decent level on their vendor) So yes, the margin on the bazaar sale would be low - But the benefits they would get from placing 25 items are far reaching - Essentially making the Bazaar exactly what it is now - Low end sales and free ads.
Argument 3:
As the argument goes—“Removing the price cap would allow everyone to sell goods at any price creating competition with vendors that will in turn destroy them.” The fallacy in this argument is it assumes that there is no economic activity in items over 6k except on vendors. This is by far not the case for this competition already exists. While removing the price caps will increase non vendor sales in items over 6k to some extent, it will only be by the amount of sales that the price cap currently discourages. The most dramatic affect will be that all this economic activity will now be visible, not hidden away in trade windows.
Instead of changing this system as is now, create a viable option to Trade Forums within the game. Create NEW content and abilities, not take away.
Argument 4:
As the argument goes— “People shouldn’t have the ability to sell items with out an investment in skill points.” This is an argument about what the merchant profession is. Is it the excusive right to all automated sales over 6k? Or is it the ability to have vendor’s stores, advertising and 6000 items up for sale at once. Merchant skills grant vendors items and advertising tools. Nothing in there has anything to do with price caps. This argument also begs the question “How is someone that only wants to sell 10 items a week supposed to sell goods?” Spend skill points to put up a vendor that no one will go to. That’s like saying if I want to sell my car for more then 6k I need to get a business license, put up a store front in a good location and higher a salesperson. With the price cap there are no in game tools for non merchants to conduct automated sales of goods. So is merchant a monopoly on all automated transactions or just the ability and tools to be a merchant and run a large high volume business?
No, it is not a monopoly -However, it IS designed to be the system to sell higher end goods at a higher price. Honestly, aside from Architects and some Shipwrights, who in this game makes only 10 items a week? Aside from the appearance that you dislike the Merchant class, it was designed to be just as you say - The class that does the selling of higher end goods. It would be FAR easier in the light you have painted to do away with Merchant altogether, and allow anyone to place a vendor, leaving the Bazaar as is. And as an aside, people can get a vendor without doing Merchant at all. True, at the highest Artisan level they only can have 2 with a250 item limit - But that limit is FAR more than actually needed on any given game day. Theonly Merchant benefits are then : Planetary ads (Your idea instantly gives everyone GALAXY wide ads free), Higher Item limits (But be honest - How many merchants sell a fraction of our limit?) and supposedly, Volume (Any non-merchant can have volume sales at a cost of only 29 SP, or with your idea, just some footwork to replenish Bazaar frequently) Your idea rewards people for not wanting to be an artisan, and penalizes those who DO.
Argument 5:
If it’s easier for customers to make money customers will have more money to spend. This is the connection I’m surprised is over looked so often. The reason most people don’t have merchant is they’re not interested in being a merchant. They’re combatant/looters only dealing in a few items at any one time. They don’t have access to factory goods in bulk and aren’t interested in running a business selling hundreds to thousands of items a week. If they wanted to sell hundreds or thousands of items a week they would be merchants, that’s what the profession is for. In general they just want to be able to sell loot and the occasional used item. For this class of person the price cap forces them to do one of two things. Spend a lot of time selling items by means other then the bazaar or delete a lot of sellable items that aren’t worth the trouble. In either case this just takes money out of their pockets in potential sales or time lost. Which in turn is less money to spend on other goods and less time playing, fighting and otherwise wearing out goods.
Your fallacy here is your assumption that Merchant is only for selling "hundred or thousands" of items. Very, very few Merchants do that kind of volume. Merchant is designed to be the Salesmen - We just haven't been given content or items to make the Class viable for it's intended purpose. As for people who don't want to be Merchants to sell items - I ask you, why is this such an issue? They have CHOSEN to be the type of character they are. With their choices, they have limitations - as do Merchants. We sacrifice the points to become Mighty Fighters to go out and loot items of intrinsic high value. Look again to my idea of new additions for an Auction house to address your concerns in this area.

SYNOPSIS:
Removing price caps from the bazaar would have minimal effect on vendors as long as the 25 item limit remains. The 25 item limit ensures that vendors will still be the most efficient and effective means to get crafted items into the economy. Price cap removal will have the largest effect on combatant/looters, giving them limited economic tools that will make it easier to sell used items and loot, giving them more time play the game and spend their money

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I disagree. If there were only a few Artisans making these good, this would be true. However, there are hundreds if not thousands of Artisans…

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There are not thousands of 12pt crafters on a server. Artisans and crafters represents a small percentage of the players overall.

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… who would be placing 25 items at a time - Which would lead to a glut of items on the Bazaar, and not vendors….

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If this were the case why would anyone in their right mind set up a power up vendor now since it competes with the bazaar? People still do and the ones in good locations have trouble staying stocked even with the machinery of multi account merchant/crafters supporting them.

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… Imagine this: Artisan places Factory, does a run of 1000 items. Leaves, plays at combat. Picks up 25 crates (Or sells in singles) as run is done, and places 25 items on Bazaar. Since he has eliminated the need for a Vendor, he saves overall on Maintenance - No planetary ad costs, no paying vendor support or house support. Now mulitply this by only 100 Artisans doing the same. Takes player only a few moments, so rinse and repeat daily. Are merchants the only ones who take a hit here.

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Are you a crafter merchant? How many items do you currently have stocked? Would you drop your vendors and leave thousands of items in your factory just to run back and forth from your factories to stock 25 at a time. Twenty-five items is barely enough to stock one product. Three whole suits of composite for armor smiths. If suddenly every 12 pt crafter could only have 25 items up at once there would be shortages. Business this way is too cumbersome, would take too much real life time to conduct, and in the end could not meet the needs of a server.

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True at the beginning. However, players CAN check the Bazaar prices galaxy wide, and sort from lowest to highest price. Eventually, crafters seeing they can get the benefits of FREE Global advertizing place a run of 25 various items on the Bazaar at ridiculously low prices - With each item having in the description the WP to their shop, and their normal price (Which since they can now see everyone's bazaar price, they set at a decent level on their vendor) So yes, the margin on the bazaar sale would be low - But the benefits they would get from placing 25 items are far reaching - Essentially making the Bazaar exactly what it is now - Low end sales and free ads.

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You touch on one item I didn’t get into above, which is that the cap causes people to dump items under their market value. This does hurt vendors a little bit.

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…Instead of changing this system as is now, create a viable option to Trade Forums within the game. Create NEW content and abilities, not take away…

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I am trying to create a viable option. I’m not taking away any abilities

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No, it is not a monopoly…

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Ok everyone who’s not a merchant that can conduct an automated trade for more then 6k, raise your hand… still waiting on a few Image designers to show up, but looks like a monopoly to me.

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…However, it IS designed to be the system to sell higher end goods at a higher price. Honestly, aside from Architects and some Shipwrights, who in this game makes only 10 items a week? ….

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Combatant/looters (and everyone other then merchant) deal in numbers like 10 a week.

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….Aside from the appearance that you dislike the Merchant class …

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Not true. Some of my best friends are merchants. I think merchant is a great profession but needs a lot of work in terms of tools to more efficiently stock and move stocked vendors and much better ways to advertise and match up buyers to product. I think merchant should be the best way to conduct large business and sell good even in an environment with out price caps. (BTW I do have a merchant on Bria)

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… it was designed to be just as you say - The class that does the selling of higher end goods. It would be FAR easier in the light you have painted to do away with Merchant altogether. and allow anyone to place a vendor, leaving the Bazaar as is….

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Not at all. My argument is that removing price cap on the bazaar does not do away with the need for vendors nor does it create the need for vendors currently. It’s the item cap that does this. In items that currently compete with the bazaar there is still a need for vendors and there would still be a need for vendors after the removal if the price cap. I’m in no way arguing for the removal of the merchant profession or shifting its abilities to every master crafter.

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…And as an aside, people can get a vendor without doing Merchant at all. True, at the highest Artisan level they only can have 2 with a 250 item limit - But that limit is FAR more than actually needed on any given game day. The only Merchant benefits are then : Planetary ads (Your idea instantly gives everyone GALAXY wide ads free), Higher Item limits (But be honest - How many merchants sell a fraction of our limit?) and supposedly, Volume (Any non-merchant can have volume sales at a cost of only 29 SP, or with your idea, just some footwork to replenish Bazaar frequently)…

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I really don’t see low volume merchants as a viable model. With or with out the price caps, the competition that makes low volume merchants unworkable (rare specialty merchants aside) is high volume merchants. Supply side works, if you build it they will come and this game has shown this to be true. Consumers are drawn to the best stocked malls.

The other problem with the, “Only 29 skill points required to sell anything” argument is you end up with an unknown vendor sitting empty most of the time. To make any business work you need a good location, a lot of items to sell and constant advertising. If I only want to sell a few trinkets here and there, there is no point in spending 29 points to put those trinkets on a vendor somewhere and then sit out side a star port spamming that there are a few trinkets on an unlisted vendor somewhere. It’s easier and quicker to spam that I have a few trinkets on me or auction them outside of the game.

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…Your idea rewards people for not wanting to be an artisan, and penalizes those who DO…

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It’s not my idea that penalizes or rewards anyone for this. It’s the reality of the situation mentioned above. As long as the trade window continues to work, running a business is more work then reward for a small volumes of items. Nothing can be done about this, there is an unavoidable amount of work and overhead required to run any business. Unless you plan on selling a lot of items it’s just not worth it. You don’t build a Wallmart and hire 200 people to sell 25 items.

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…Your fallacy here is your assumption that Merchant is only for selling "hundred or thousands" of items…

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Ok so you think you do build a Wallmart and hire a staff to sell 25 items.

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…Very, very few Merchants do that kind of volume. Merchant is designed to be the Salesmen - We just haven't been given content or items to make the Class viable for it's intended purpose….

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Like all professions gaining master doesn’t guarantee success. Master rifleman doesn’t mean I never die, strafe shot 2 doesn’t mean I always hit and the ability to place a vendor doesn’t mean you always get customers. In a way merchant is the hardest profession to succeed in because there is no +25 to picking a good location skill, or a +25 to stocking the right items at the right price skill. There is no skill that SOE can give that will save someone from making bad business killing decision. No matter what, you could nuke the bazaar, take away the trade window, make every single person log into your store and if you aren’t selling anything people want, they aren’t going to buy it. Merchant is the one skill where almost all of the ability to succeed comes from outside of the game while at the same time all of the competition comes from other players. If every other person was a rifleman that doesn’t make my life as a rifleman harder, but with merchants and crafters it does. All you have is economic PvP. Merchant is the profession you choose if you want to compete in that. In that light it’s a pretty good profession.

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…As for people who don't want to be Merchants to sell items - I ask you, why is this such an issue? …

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The issue is when we have a few items we want to sell we have waste a ton of time to do it. The item still gets sold; the effect on the economy is the same. If it’s bought from the bazaar or a trade window it’s still not bought from a vendor. But we have to spend time writing up an auction, monitoring the auction or sitting outside of a star port trying to hawk it. For a lot of items this just isn’t worth it and they just get destroyed. The system is so bad we destroy items we could make money on!!!! To the regular Joe combatant this isn’t what they play the game for. They just want to sell their items so they can buy some brandy, a new gun and a suit of armor.

And this is what kills me about this whole argument. Economic activity and growth is measured in how quicklymoney circulates around. The price cap puts up major roadblocks to that circulation. The last astromech stats on professions had 2% of the toons as merchants. That leaves 98% of the people fumbling around trying to conduct basic economic activity in a very un efficient way. If I have a +5 armor experimentation tape and want to buy guns and food, what good is it to put up all sorts of roadblocks to me exchanging that item for money? That tape would be easy to move but most of the time it’s items that aren’t so easy. The quicker and easier you can facilitate the circulation the quicker the economy grows. Merchants should want more rich and happy customers and a growing economy. Bazaar price caps don’t do that.

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…They have CHOSEN to be the type of character they are. With their choices, they have limitations - as do Merchants. We sacrifice the points to become Mighty Fighters to go out and loot items of intrinsic high value…

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I’ve said it before. There is nothing in the merchant profession that has anything to do with price caps. “Novice merchant— The ability to cap everyone’s bazaar trades to 6k” isn’t listed as far as I know.

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….Look again to my idea of new additions for an Auction house to address your concerns in this area…

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That’s not such a bad idea. It still has the same problem of putting substantial barriers on basic economic activity. But in the end I don’t see the devs letting 2% of the people take 5% off the top of the economic activity of the other 98% That’s a lot of money.

However a sales tax on the bazaar and auctions might fly. Like all things of this nature it can’t be too high or no one will use it and just conduct business as usual shouting at star ports and auctioning on the forums. But something like 5% to 10% on items over 10k, I could see myself paying that. And this should alleviate a lot of merchants’ fears about the “phantom aggregate effect of crafters suddenly selling 25 items at a time.” For every million in goods they would eat 100k that vendors wouldn’t. That’s a helluva advantage in the economic PvP game.

A sales tax like this would be pretty progressive in game (unlike real life) and could pull enough money out of the economy that other drains like vehicle repair could become more reasonable.

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…You forget to include: Removing Merchants from having any real use whatsoever. Please don't assume that because the Devs haven't given us the tools to play Merchants as they are intended, that we don't have a purpose other than being Mega Stores…

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Like I said I’m actually for merchants. Not sure how you think merchants are intended to be played, but the fact that they can list more then 6000 items at once suggest that it’s a little larger scale then you think it is. And the fact that they only become useful as mega stores isn’t so much a function of game design or price caps but more the aftermath of competing business models.

If you want to improve the merchant profession you need to think more along the lines of how to better serve your customers. Of course tools to help merchants conduct the nuts and bolts of their business are important but it will be much easier make merchant a successful profession if people use vendors because they are easier and more efficient then other methods of obtaining goods. Not because price caps and arbitrary rules force them to. IMHO if the only way you can get merchant to work is through price caps and arbitrary rules, it should be scrapped as a profession because that’s just not better or fun game play for the other 98%. But as I have said I think merchant works well now and would work better after a price cap removal. I’m sure the stats would show that substantial amount of cash flows through them which is how its success should be measured.

Message Edited by ObiQuixote on 01-20-2005 05:39 PM

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Phaelyn wrote:

I posted about an idea concerning Auctions on another thread - I will paste here other than referring you to it:

Actually, I see a different sort of thing entirely for an Auction system within the game. Let me lay out the idea:

1) Give Master Merchants an Auction house ability. They can work in association with the Mayor (Master Politician needed) and place the structure within a city. (To keep # of Auction houses down further, require said city to be Metropolis in size and improved Job Market, limited to ONE Auction house per city) - This also gives Master Architects a new building to craft - and potentially a new type of Vendor for them to build as well. (instead of the Merchant creating one, it would need to be crafted, as to be tied into the database & give several professions benefits from the new idea)

2) The Auction house can hold a fixed number of the new special Vendors. This would make it so Auctions for different types of items could be restricted to one Vendor - IE, A Food vendor could only accept and Auction food items.

Limit the amount of vendors of this type that a merchant could place to 1. This would prevent an individual from getting a monopoly on that area and allow more merchants to get a cut of the money that was moving and would allow more people to be in a true merchant role.

3) Seller would then offer his item to the Vendor, specifying his Minimum price, Increments and duration. Note that there should be no buyout price - If someone wishes to sell items at a fixed price, they would need to use a standard vendor. Also, Auctions should be not be able to be cancelled - if the seller chooses to sell at auction, they take the risk of the item selling at a lower price than if they sold it personally.

I think that this would be better if the itemscould begiven a reserve price. If I put up an item that was worth 500k and it was not noticed or was forgotten about I should not have to take 5k for it. I know the argument is there that the beginning price should be the lowest price I would take for the item but that is not really how an auction starts. If you ever go to an auction that sells high end items you will see "no sale" actions occuring when the seller will not take the final bid for an item. I also think that this would cause the bidding to start earlier and in turn would get more people making return trips to the auction house to rebid.

4) Buyers can search each vendor for items they desire. They can input an opening bid, and a proxy bid. Again, no buyout price should be listed for an Auction.

Add an email notification when you are outbid. This would serve as a simple reminder that 1) you are bidding on an item and 2) More items have most likely been added since you last visited the auction house.

5) Merchant receives a 5% fee from each Auction.

I think this would bring the usefullness of merchants back. As it is now people are only getting merchant in order to place vendors for items that they make. If this were done then it would allow people with a desire to be a regular merchant do so and would also allow people with no merchant skills to reap the rewards of the merchant in the manner it was intended.

I think by adding a system such as the one laid out above, we can keep the Bazaar for the lower end items, Fixed price items on personal vendors, and create a new way for Merchants and Cities to gain prestige. As a by product, it would stimulate the in game economy to do just that - stay in game.

Now, removing the vendor cap, and taking away from the Merchant profession certainly are perfectly good solutions as well. But if we are going to work within the game, add content and give different professions something new to do, I believe my idea works well. The only real argument I have seen that makes sense to me is how it would work within server stability and database - I say if they can add the Village, they can do somethingf with this - Most of the coding is already in place, and would only need some tweaking to adapt it to fit the idea.

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This would greatly improve the role of the merchant in the game but I will not be holding my breath for these changes. I have been waiting on the smuggler revamp since.................yeah about that long.

Bedew